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 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Yea I can't believe this doesn't require like 2 CP's and lasts a turn or something to balance it out. It's the same old free rules for some approach. Before anyone jumps on me, I am aware other armies will get there own flavor, the problem is without points they are all the same value, only if they are different there is no way to balance that. This CT flat out breaks one of the core elements to the game, it took one book. Seriously GW, make it cost CP's for any army to turn on there strong rules and suddenly theres player skill and choice rather then one passive trait that is always better then others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Every army is going to get these. So it isn't really power creep when it happens across the board.

LMAO it took one post after his for this inane comment to rear it's annoying head.

OK buddy, you mean like last edition how white scars and ultramarines were seen just as much as iron hands and IF's? /s

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
Jesus fething christ the salt here is unbelievable, some of you need to grow the feth up and act your age.

The rest need to just go cool off for a good while.

Plastic toys meant for a few hours entertainment are just that serious business I guess

It's kinda funny, but on the other hand I'm nauseous that adults are acting like this.
More so when essentially this is just 5ed And they shall Know No Fear - I used to fall back and shoot chargers all the time with my CSM, was never a problem.
I like this new rule, that kind of flexibility is what I imagine from a jack of all trades chapter.
Gets me excited to see what other armies are going to get.

Mandragola wrote:

changemod wrote:

Crimson_ wrote:
Profile of the Redemptor and ultramarines chapter tactics on the community page. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Nowhere close to a leviathan rivaler. It's more like a Contemptor that trades Atomatic shielding for more weapon hardpoints.

Agreed. And I think I prefer my contemptors. Hitting on a 2+ makes a big difference, and the invulnerable helps.

The main problem I see with the redemptor is that it looks like it will cost a crap ton of points, without being all that tough. We don't know what any of those guns do, but it's got loads of them and so it seems reasonable to expect it to be a 200+ point model. If its main job is smashing things in cc, and it's no better at that than a normal dread, then I think it's hard to justify.

Maybe it will be allowed a gun on each arm. It could make a very decent firing platform, if that's the case.

Redemptor is kind of boring. He is basically two dreadnoughts, slightly worse since two regular refrigerators gets you 16 t7 wounds while the meatloacker gets you 13 t7 wounds. Sure he has more guns but look at the stats, they are normal dread stats only they degrade, I'd rather take two classic dreads and cover two flanks then take one of these and watch him get worse as he gets shot to pot.

Bear in mind, if this follows the precedent set by AoS, your whole army will have to have the appropriate Faction to use this ability. It won't limit everyone, but that's the balancing mechanism here - if you want Ultramarines at peak performance, you'll have to ditch the IG, Deathwatch, assassins etc.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Umbros wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
That CT looks redunkulous.

Poor Tau... they had lots of Fly keyword units, which sort of helped... now the Ultramarines just get it across the board.

Seems fair.

Bet all the other CT's suck. We know how much Geederps love the poster boys in blue.

They don't lol

It appears to not affect vehicles. It gives a -1 to hit. All it does is allow a unit that was charged to pull back and fire. They will be damaged and have a -1 to hit. They already could fall back and allow others to shoot. It is a neat tactical thing but not a huge change.

Yeah, not sure why people are freaking out about this - it's a decent but by no means overwhelming ability, especially given that the to-hit penalty makes plasma overheats extra likely.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Yea I can't believe this doesn't require like 2 CP's and lasts a turn or something to balance it out. It's the same old free rules for some approach. Before anyone jumps on me, I am aware other armies will get there own flavor, the problem is without points they are all the same value, only if they are different there is no way to balance that. This CT flat out breaks one of the core elements to the game, it took one book. Seriously GW, make it cost CP's for any army to turn on there strong rules and suddenly theres player skill and choice rather then one passive trait that is always better then others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Every army is going to get these. So it isn't really power creep when it happens across the board.

LMAO it took one post after his for this inane comment to rear it's annoying head.

OK buddy, you mean like last edition how white scars and ultramarines were seen just as much as iron hands and IF's? /s

1. Iron Hands were seen just as much.
2. Also, KHAN was seen a lot, not just White Scars. Scout for basically nothing was super good. Chapter Tactics themselves last edition barring a few extreme examples (Salamanders) were actually pretty balanced.

Umbros wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
That CT looks redunkulous.

Poor Tau... they had lots of Fly keyword units, which sort of helped... now the Ultramarines just get it across the board.

Seems fair.

Bet all the other CT's suck. We know how much Geederps love the poster boys in blue.

They don't lol

It appears to not affect vehicles. It gives a -1 to hit. All it does is allow a unit that was charged to pull back and fire. They will be damaged and have a -1 to hit. They already could fall back and allow others to shoot. It is a neat tactical thing but not a huge change.

You keep saying this, which leads me to believe you haven't actually played much lol. A key startegy in 8th is to assault one unit but position yourself to pile into as many other units as possible, this means you don't suffer multiple overwatch and those units are now engaged taking them out of the fight. The cost is I get hit by your units that weren't assaulted while I cannot hit those units in particular. Suddenly, this strategy is a terrible choice despite it being difficult to set up and execute, while the UM player just has a passive ability that is VERY strong. It's stupid because it's brainless, it lacks skill as a general to use and in fact makes screening less important. All for the cost of NOTHING....

Honestly I'm betting Marines will get more expensive in the codex anyway.

Tacs went to 13 points from 14 and lost chapter tactics, now they're gaining chapter tactics i expect they'll add points to most units.

Marines are one of the few armies in the index without their army wide special rules (beyond ATSKNF which is mediocre) anyway, Acts of faith, soulburst etc stuck around but chapter tactics disappeared for a moment anyway.

It's not like Marines were winning tons of games at the moment, aren't they 2nd or 3rd last on the dakka w/l count right now

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, weren't they playing ultra marines? If so The Ultra marine CM is calgar, it has always annpoyed me since they allowed named chapters that HAVE a CM to take multiple generics. There is only ever one CM, there has an entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Yea I can't believe this doesn't require like 2 CP's and lasts a turn or something to balance it out. It's the same old free rules for some approach. Before anyone jumps on me, I am aware other armies will get there own flavor, the problem is without points they are all the same value, only if they are different there is no way to balance that. This CT flat out breaks one of the core elements to the game, it took one book. Seriously GW, make it cost CP's for any army to turn on there strong rules and suddenly theres player skill and choice rather then one passive trait that is always better then others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Every army is going to get these. So it isn't really power creep when it happens across the board.

LMAO it took one post after his for this inane comment to rear it's annoying head.

OK buddy, you mean like last edition how white scars and ultramarines were seen just as much as iron hands and IF's? /s

1. Iron Hands were seen just as much.
2. Also, KHAN was seen a lot, not just White Scars. Scout for basically nothing was super good. Chapter Tactics themselves last edition barring a few extreme examples (Salamanders) were actually pretty balanced.

1. Nope, at high level play not even remotely.
2. Hilarious comment, KHAN IS a white scar. Just because free scout and hit and run is good doesn't mean only hit and run is bad but nice try at shifting the post.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, weren't they playing ultra marines? If so The Ultra marine CM is calgar, it has always annpoyed me since they allowed named chapters that HAVE a CM to take multiple generics. There is only ever one CM, there has an entry.

They were playing a successor chapter; Sons of guilliman I believe.

RULE #1 is a real thing here.

A really important thing too.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Wait, weren't they playing ultra marines? If so The Ultra marine CM is calgar, it has always annpoyed me since they allowed named chapters that HAVE a CM to take multiple generics. There is only ever one CM, there has an entry.

I don't mind it when they allow for more options. There have been other chapter masters than Calgar for the UM's historically right? allowing for generic CMs at least allows some latitude for players. But more than one chapter master from the same chapter would be weird in most circumstances.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, weren't they playing ultra marines? If so The Ultra marine CM is calgar, it has always annpoyed me since they allowed named chapters that HAVE a CM to take multiple generics. There is only ever one CM, there has an entry.

It's not like Calgar has always been and will always be the Chapter Master of the UM.
Heck, didn't Robby G demote him when he was revived by Eldar Magic & Mars Tech?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

changemod wrote:

Crimson_ wrote:
Profile of the Redemptor and ultramarines chapter tactics on the community page. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Nowhere close to a leviathan rivaler. It's more like a Contemptor that trades Atomatic shielding for more weapon hardpoints.

Agreed. And I think I prefer my contemptors. Hitting on a 2+ makes a big difference, and the invulnerable helps.

The main problem I see with the redemptor is that it looks like it will cost a crap ton of points, without being all that tough. We don't know what any of those guns do, but it's got loads of them and so it seems reasonable to expect it to be a 200+ point model. If its main job is smashing things in cc, and it's no better at that than a normal dread, then I think it's hard to justify.

Maybe it will be allowed a gun on each arm. It could make a very decent firing platform, if that's the case.

Redemptor is kind of boring. He is basically two dreadnoughts, slightly worse since two regular refrigerators gets you 16 t7 wounds while the meatloacker gets you 13 t7 wounds. Sure he has more guns but look at the stats, they are normal dread stats only they degrade, I'd rather take two classic dreads and cover two flanks then take one of these and watch him get worse as he gets shot to pot.

Well, I suppose that's fitting: An Intercessor is basically two slightly worse tactical marines after all.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, how does that work? Is there a CM statline?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, how does that work? Is there a CM statline?

CM get reroll all to hits vs captains which do rerolls of 1

so far quite a few chapters are boned out of a cm.

 Desubot wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, how does that work? Is there a CM statline?

CM get reroll all to hits vs captains which do rerolls of 1

so far quite a few chapters are boned out of a cm.

Ok, so at the start of the game you spend 3CP to turn a captain into a Chapter Master, which allows rerolls to all hits? Is that it?
2 questions -

1) Can you do this to multiple captains
2) Is this only for chapters who do not have a CM specified? Like, can you do this for Ultramarines, even though they have a defined chapter master?

I'm curious because this is a very interesting mechanic they've introduced.
I wonder if they'll do the same thing for Phaerons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Ok, so at the start of the game you spend 3CP to turn a captain into a Chapter Master, which allows rerolls to all hits? Is that it?
2 questions -

1) Can you do this to multiple captains
2) Is this only for chapters who do not have a CM specified? Like, can you do this for Ultramarines, even though they have a defined chapter master?

I'm curious because this is a very interesting mechanic they've introduced.
I wonder if they'll do the same thing for Phaerons.

Not sure if you can do it for established chapters. It is likely only one, but at 3CP you'll be hard pressed to find the room for more anyway.

I'm wondering if they'll do the same for Thousand Sons...reroll all invulnerables...though Ahriman himself is just on 1s.

I think that is really weird way to use command points. Chapter Master upgrade feels like something that should cost power/points.

Tbf, its just a minor thing. Not like they receive a stat boost or anything.

Now for things like Calgar, do you have to pay points AND CP? Or is it just points for the known Chapter Masters?

 Crimson wrote:
I think that is really weird way to use command points. Chapter Master upgrade feels like something that should cost power/points.

Maybe it should. but what it is effectively doing is trading in 3 versatile rerolls early for a whole lot more to hit rerolls during the whole game.

seems very odd.

 Kingsley wrote:


Yeah, not sure why people are freaking out about this - it's a decent but by no means overwhelming ability, especially given that the to-hit penalty makes plasma overheats extra likely.

Decent is a understatement. I used white scars for a long time to gain the benefit of hit and run Tactical squads. It's potent. the point of plasma overheats also seems overstated, since one can just opt NOT to overcharge their weapons.

That said, don't mind the rule and kinda wished Raptors had this version (instead of what whatever they get, assuming FW provides updated chapter Tactics rules)

Also, I don't that I (and likely general community) don't have the 8th edition game intuition strong enough to concretely sense what is unbalanced and what is in the current game unless something is WAY off. This doesn't seem that grandiose.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is really weird how they decided to handle the Chapter Masters and I can't really say I like it. Now those chapters who have named special character masters can take them, while others got to pay three command points for theirs.

Where do you see that?

On the stream they used 3CP to upgrade a captain to chapter master.

Wait, weren't they playing ultra marines? If so The Ultra marine CM is calgar, it has always annpoyed me since they allowed named chapters that HAVE a CM to take multiple generics. There is only ever one CM, there has an entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Yea I can't believe this doesn't require like 2 CP's and lasts a turn or something to balance it out. It's the same old free rules for some approach. Before anyone jumps on me, I am aware other armies will get there own flavor, the problem is without points they are all the same value, only if they are different there is no way to balance that. This CT flat out breaks one of the core elements to the game, it took one book. Seriously GW, make it cost CP's for any army to turn on there strong rules and suddenly theres player skill and choice rather then one passive trait that is always better then others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And so the silliness begins. Can't say I'm anywhere near enthused by the Ultramarines chapter tactics "oh, hey we'll ignore this massively important component of the game rules".

Pretty tremendous power creep as expected. Shame.

Every army is going to get these. So it isn't really power creep when it happens across the board.

LMAO it took one post after his for this inane comment to rear it's annoying head.

OK buddy, you mean like last edition how white scars and ultramarines were seen just as much as iron hands and IF's? /s

1. Iron Hands were seen just as much.
2. Also, KHAN was seen a lot, not just White Scars. Scout for basically nothing was super good. Chapter Tactics themselves last edition barring a few extreme examples (Salamanders) were actually pretty balanced.

1. Nope, at high level play not even remotely.
2. Hilarious comment, KHAN IS a white scar. Just because free scout and hit and run is good doesn't mean only hit and run is bad but nice try at shifting the post.

1. Of course. Gladius made everyone viable so you could use literally any Chapter. However...
2. Khan gives Scout. If you're competitive, you are going to want Scout. Khan gives it out for free and is super cheap. Nobody was taking White Scars without Khan. I didn't shift the post at all.

 Desubot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think that is really weird way to use command points. Chapter Master upgrade feels like something that should cost power/points.

Maybe it should. but what it is effectively doing is trading in 3 versatile rerolls early for a whole lot more to hit rerolls during the whole game.

seems very odd.

Re-rolls which you'll lose if the you're not within 6" of the Chapter Master.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think that is really weird way to use command points. Chapter Master upgrade feels like something that should cost power/points.

Maybe it should. but what it is effectively doing is trading in 3 versatile rerolls early for a whole lot more to hit rerolls during the whole game.

seems very odd.

Re-rolls which you'll lose if the you're not within 6" of the Chapter Master.

Given that you get rerolls of 1 with the Captain and you usually hit on a 3+ or better (rerolls before modifiers) , that ability alone isn't as no brainer as it looks. It depends if the Chapter Master brings any other tools to the party.

Umbros wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think that is really weird way to use command points. Chapter Master upgrade feels like something that should cost power/points.

Maybe it should. but what it is effectively doing is trading in 3 versatile rerolls early for a whole lot more to hit rerolls during the whole game.

seems very odd.

Re-rolls which you'll lose if the you're not within 6" of the Chapter Master.

Given that you get rerolls of 1 with the Captain and you usually hit on a 3+ or better (rerolls before modifiers) , that ability alone isn't as no brainer as it looks. It depends if the Chapter Master brings any other tools to the party.

From the looks of a captains and chapter masters only tech is the rerolls thing. otherwise any other bonuses are related to their unique named character.

That is an extremely strong chapter tactic.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with it unless you only get to use it if your entire army, not just a single detachment, is Ultramarines. Detachments just aren't very limiting and it would be nice if there were gameplay reasons not to just take Imperial Soup.

Dionysodorus wrote:
That is an extremely strong chapter tactic.

How so. +1 ld will basicly never come up as the unit will ether be dead or not have to take ld at all - very very specific situations currently.

getting out of combat and shooting is nice but what units ever run around charging things. and how badly will they wreck a unit of marines of various flavors.

 Desubot wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
That is an extremely strong chapter tactic.

How so. +1 ld will basicly never come up as the unit will ether be dead or not have to take ld at all - very very specific situations currently.

getting out of combat and shooting is nice but what units ever run around charging things. and how badly will they wreck a unit of marines of various flavors.

I see relatively durable but shooty units get charged in most games I play or watch, I think, specifically in order to tie them up and not to actually kill them. This is mostly true for vehicles, which are generally exempt from the chapter tactic, but in my experience this is a standard answer to shooty dreadnoughts. It's also an obvious answer to bikes if you're not going to shoot them. Almost every mechanized list wants to use its transports to tie up enemy shooting in general and will gladly charge them at regular marines.