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Dionysodorus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
That is an extremely strong chapter tactic.

How so. +1 ld will basicly never come up as the unit will ether be dead or not have to take ld at all - very very specific situations currently.

getting out of combat and shooting is nice but what units ever run around charging things. and how badly will they wreck a unit of marines of various flavors.

I see relatively durable but shooty units get charged in most games I play or watch, I think, specifically in order to tie them up and not to actually kill them. This is mostly true for vehicles, which are generally exempt from the chapter tactic, but in my experience this is a standard answer to shooty dreadnoughts. It's also an obvious answer to bikes if you're not going to shoot them. Almost every mechanized list wants to use its transports to tie up enemy shooting in general and will gladly charge them at regular marines.

Vehicles for sure no issue there. and i dont think dreads get CT which i find odd and sad. thats true though about shock locking infantry with transports. but how often does it realistically come up.

 Desubot wrote:

Vehicles for sure no issue there. and i dont think dreads get CT which i find odd and sad. thats true though about shock locking infantry with transports. but how often does it realistically come up.

The community post specifically points out dreadnoughts as benefiting from CT. But like I said, I see infantry getting locked by transports basically every game involving Eldar skimmer transports or Repressors, and even sometimes by flyers with hover modes like Stormravens.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
That's part of it. The bigger problem for me though is the fact that the grav plates look like a last-minute add on to a tank that was designed for tracks. It doesn't look like a super-high-tech new addition. It looks like a battlefield jury-rig.

I find myself really tempted to buy one (once they hit eBay at a discount) and convert it to have appropriately-sized tracks. I suspect that it will be a vast improvement.

That is actually rather plausible. We know that STC designs are malleable based on the resources and technology available. The Repulsor could be a template designed for repulsors or tracks, and had it been built in the Great Crusade era the grav version would be sleeker, like the grav plates on custodes tanks, but since then tech is lost and now replaced with cruder repulsor tech.

I dunno whether it's just coincidence, a case of the author seeing something ahead of time, or meant to imply a specific connection in the background I don't know, but if you read Master of Mankind the description of Land's original personal Raider is very familiar. Which actually makes it a little more annoying that they're pushing the whole "no it's actually new stuff, Marysueius Cawl came up with it on the servotoilet one afternoon" angle - so much of the new fluff could be so easily slotted into 40K's existing tone, themes, and prior background with no effort at all yet they seem determined to do the exact opposite.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Vehicles for sure no issue there. and i dont think dreads get CT which i find odd and sad. thats true though about shock locking infantry with transports. but how often does it realistically come up.

The community post specifically points out dreadnoughts as benefiting from CT. But like I said, I see infantry getting locked by transports basically every game involving Eldar skimmer transports or Repressors, and even sometimes by flyers with hover modes like Stormravens.

if you are leaving your durable, shooty units locked in combat, rather than falling back and shooting and/or charging the offending unit with something else, you are really selling your army short.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
That's part of it. The bigger problem for me though is the fact that the grav plates look like a last-minute add on to a tank that was designed for tracks. It doesn't look like a super-high-tech new addition. It looks like a battlefield jury-rig.

I find myself really tempted to buy one (once they hit eBay at a discount) and convert it to have appropriately-sized tracks. I suspect that it will be a vast improvement.

That is actually rather plausible. We know that STC designs are malleable based on the resources and technology available. The Repulsor could be a template designed for repulsors or tracks, and had it been built in the Great Crusade era the grav version would be sleeker, like the grav plates on custodes tanks, but since then tech is lost and now replaced with cruder repulsor tech.

I dunno whether it's just coincidence, a case of the author seeing something ahead of time, or meant to imply a specific connection in the background I don't know, but if you read Master of Mankind the description of Land's original personal Raider is very familiar. Which actually makes it a little more annoying that they're pushing the whole "no it's actually new stuff, Marysueius Cawl came up with it on the servotoilet one afternoon" angle - so much of the new fluff could be so easily slotted into 40K's existing tone, themes, and prior background with no effort at all yet they seem determined to do the exact opposite.

Considering that one theory is that Cawl *IS* Arkhan Land, is it really too much of a stretch to see him mass producing his personal stuff?

 Yodhrin wrote:

I dunno whether it's just coincidence, a case of the author seeing something ahead of time, or meant to imply a specific connection in the background I don't know, but if you read Master of Mankind the description of Land's original personal Raider is very familiar. .

Land's Raider is described as being similar to a Spartan, with an enlarged crew compartment and assault ramp. So very different to the new thing.

How bad of a player do you have to be to look at +1ld and being able to shoot at worse BS after falling back and think "oh no, how can I possibly beat this it's so overpowered".

It's a decent perk at best. If you''re trying to tie-up marines instead of just killing them you're not playing the match-up right anyway, Marines aren't exactly durable.

It's also fluffy. With how utterly dry the index rules are I'm very excited to see what's in store for the main codices. All I hope for is that the ensuing chapter tactics aren't rehashes of stuff we've seen before. If Salamanders tactics come down to being re-rolling 1's for flame/melta to-wound rolls I'm going to flip a lid. Ditto for re-rolling advance rolls or re-rolling hits against characters for BT.

Some you kind of expect to stay similar to previous versions though. Re-rolling wound rolls across the board for flame/melta weapons is still a significant boost even if it is a little duller than the 13th's movement shenanigans.

I expect WS to have Hit 'n' Run of sorts, Salamanders to have something relating to burning/melting face, Iron Hands to have a boost to saves in some way (being more machine than man), IF to have bolter drill again, RG to either get deployment shenanigans or a bonus to jump troops, etc. And that's just basic things without putting a lot of thought into the lore or major difference between the codex 'compliant' Chapters.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
That's part of it. The bigger problem for me though is the fact that the grav plates look like a last-minute add on to a tank that was designed for tracks. It doesn't look like a super-high-tech new addition. It looks like a battlefield jury-rig.

I find myself really tempted to buy one (once they hit eBay at a discount) and convert it to have appropriately-sized tracks. I suspect that it will be a vast improvement.

That is actually rather plausible. We know that STC designs are malleable based on the resources and technology available. The Repulsor could be a template designed for repulsors or tracks, and had it been built in the Great Crusade era the grav version would be sleeker, like the grav plates on custodes tanks, but since then tech is lost and now replaced with cruder repulsor tech.

I dunno whether it's just coincidence, a case of the author seeing something ahead of time, or meant to imply a specific connection in the background I don't know, but if you read Master of Mankind the description of Land's original personal Raider is very familiar. Which actually makes it a little more annoying that they're pushing the whole "no it's actually new stuff, Marysueius Cawl came up with it on the servotoilet one afternoon" angle - so much of the new fluff could be so easily slotted into 40K's existing tone, themes, and prior background with no effort at all yet they seem determined to do the exact opposite.

But what if actually Cawl just did discover some vault full of old tech blueprints and he is saying that they are full 100% their own desings? Stealing the forgotten and old ideas like Thomas Edison

I expect Salamanders to get some sort of reroll to hit with Meltas and reroll shots with Flamers.

 AduroT wrote:
I expect Salamanders to get some sort of reroll to hit with Meltas and reroll shots with Flamers.

Probably. though i think vulken already does that or maybe it was the to wound part.

I really hope no chapter tactic will grant any sort of hit or wound rerolls, as that is already what many marine characters do.

I doubt any chapter will get re-rolls for their CTs as that'd reduce the utility of characters. I could see Salies getting "add +1 to hit on flamer rolls. May spend X CPs to give tatical squads access to heavy flamers"

With keeping the reroll focus on characters, I could see Salamanders maybe getting something like "can use flame weapons during shooting phase if locked in close combat" or maybe letting melta weapons roll 2 dice for damage at full range. Things like that.

I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies in seconds

 Rydria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies in seconds

To be fair with split fire that would delete a lot of not marine pretty quickly.

Did the horde/conscript army OP thing die out?

 Rydria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies lol

Lemme do the math on it.
Assuming T3 with a 5+ Save
4*(4/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.18 wounds per round of shooting
8*(3/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.78 wounds per round of shooting

So it isn't a huge boost.

 Rydria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies in seconds

Considering how hordes have rules that make them fairly resistant to morale and considering how dirt cheap they are, that might not be a bad thing.

Need a new IF hero. Lysander is a bit archaic.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies lol

Lemme do the math on it.
Assuming T3 with a 5+ Save
4*(4/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.18 wounds per round of shooting
8*(3/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.78 wounds per round of shooting

So it isn't a huge boost.

That's a 50% increase in damage. That's fairly significant.

It would be less of an impact to simply have rapid fire available at full range for them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
All I hope for is that the ensuing chapter tactics aren't rehashes of stuff we've seen before. If Salamanders tactics come down to being re-rolling 1's for flame/melta to-wound rolls I'm going to flip a lid. Ditto for re-rolling advance rolls or re-rolling hits against characters for BT.

Conversely, given that Chapter Tactics are what gives each Chapter their character on the table, I would prefer each edition's version of it to do more or less the same thing it did last edition, rather than having Chapters drastically change how they function every time the rules are updated.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would love to see Imperial Fists tactics to be something like shoot a bolt weapon twice per shooting phase at -1 BS. That would be fluffy and harsh.

This would be so silly 8 shot storm bolters (though sisters already can do this) horde armies would get deleted by Imperial fist termies lol

Lemme do the math on it.
Assuming T3 with a 5+ Save
4*(4/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.18 wounds per round of shooting
8*(3/6)*(4/6)*(4/6)=1.78 wounds per round of shooting

So it isn't a huge boost.

That's a 50% increase in damage. That's fairly significant.

That's true. Perhaps it would need more of a limitation, like being unable to charge that turn (they plant their feet and shoot). Just throwing an idea out there. +1 Leadership and pseudo-Fly is hard to balance around.

I just hope Blood Angels eventually get Advance and Shoot Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapons at -1 like what Eldar can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
It would be less of an impact to simply have rapid fire available at full range for them.

That would be cool too.

Is this new space marine codex going to be specifically a Primaris codex? with all fluff, artwork, chapters, models only focusing on them and leaving all the standard marines to fester and die? will there only be one codex or will Primaris get their own?

I feel GW needs to start adding the tactical marines back into this new progression to show the compatibility of the new models with the ones that some (like me) love.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
Is this new space marine codex going to be specifically a Primaris codex? with all fluff, artwork, chapters, models only focusing on them and leaving all the standard marines to fester and die? will there only be one codex or will Primaris get their own?

I feel GW needs to start adding the tactical marines back into this new progression to show the compatibility of the new models with the ones that some (like me) love.

No this the Space Marine codex with all the "smaller" chapters covered.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
Is this new space marine codex going to be specifically a Primaris codex? with all fluff, artwork, chapters, models only focusing on them and leaving all the standard marines to fester and die? will there only be one codex or will Primaris get their own?

I feel GW needs to start adding the tactical marines back into this new progression to show the compatibility of the new models with the ones that some (like me) love.

Nah mate, it's going to be a Space Marine codex.

Primaris are just part of the same army - like Ork Nobz are to Ork Boyz, Primaris are to Space Marines.

Strange, I know. But I suppose having them be part of the same book is a relief as we don't need yet another SM sub-faction rolling about.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 nerdfest09 wrote:
Is this new space marine codex going to be specifically a Primaris codex? with all fluff, artwork, chapters, models only focusing on them and leaving all the standard marines to fester and die? will there only be one codex or will Primaris get their own?

I feel GW needs to start adding the tactical marines back into this new progression to show the compatibility of the new models with the ones that some (like me) love.

Nah mate, it's going to be a Space Marine codex.

Primaris are just part of the same army - like Ork Nobz are to Ork Boyz, Primaris are to Space Marines.

Strange, I know. But I suppose having them be part of the same book is a relief as we don't need yet another SM sub-faction rolling about.

Wouldn't that mean that they would have to repeat all the Primaris units over and over in the other Codexes (like DA, etc?). Unless of course yet again it is buy the SM codex AND your codex 'cause we wants your $$$$.

Ehldar wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 nerdfest09 wrote:
Is this new space marine codex going to be specifically a Primaris codex? with all fluff, artwork, chapters, models only focusing on them and leaving all the standard marines to fester and die? will there only be one codex or will Primaris get their own?

I feel GW needs to start adding the tactical marines back into this new progression to show the compatibility of the new models with the ones that some (like me) love.

Nah mate, it's going to be a Space Marine codex.

Primaris are just part of the same army - like Ork Nobz are to Ork Boyz, Primaris are to Space Marines.

Strange, I know. But I suppose having them be part of the same book is a relief as we don't need yet another SM sub-faction rolling about.

Wouldn't that mean that they would have to repeat all the Primaris units over and over in the other Codexes (like DA, etc?). Unless of course yet again it is buy the SM codex AND your codex 'cause we wants your $$$$.

proably, just like they repeat rhinos etc in those books

Yeah I can't imagine they won't repeat the same units. I mean, they're gonna need to repeat tactical marines and scout marines and assault marines and devastator marines, too and so on and so forth.

Ehldar wrote:

Wouldn't that mean that they would have to repeat all the Primaris units over and over in the other Codexes (like DA, etc?). Unless of course yet again it is buy the SM codex AND your codex 'cause we wants your $$$$.

You mean like tacticals, scouts, devs, assault marines, and a myriad of vehicles and characters [b]were repeated? Probably, yes, they'll be copy/pasted