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I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

I mean, they could use their invulnerable save there. They could also use their armor save at -3 and still save on a 5+. Or a 4+ in cover. This does not seem like a convincing reason to value the Terminators' invulnerable save.

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

Um, if you overcharge plasma you are just outright slain, no? You don't 'suffer a wound', you get no save whatsoever.

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

I'm really frustrated by this. Like come on - we've already seen a picture of a captain primaris with a. Plasma pistol and a power fist. Just let them have some darn options, or at least ones that can be swapped for relics.

 Flood wrote:

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

Um, if you overcharge plasma you are just outright slain, no? You don't 'suffer a wound', you get no save whatsoever.

I've yet to see a Terminator with a plasma weapon, so I'll answer for him: It's about getting HIT by supercharged Plasma weapons that hit at AP-3 for 2 damage at S8, so pretty much the perfect weapon to take out T4 W2 models.

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

I'm really frustrated by this. Like come on - we've already seen a picture of a captain primaris with a. Plasma pistol and a power fist. Just let them have some darn options, or at least ones that can be swapped for relics.

The Plasma Pistol and Power Fist model is a store birthday exclusive for 2017-2018.

Likely they didn't put it into the book to avoid people complaining about there being a book option that was only available from GW stores directly on certain dates.

 455_PWR wrote:
Deepstrike on any turn right next to something nasty (swarmlord). Shoot 4 bolter shots each (inside 12"... yup that's 20 shots for 5 terminators with storm bolters). Then use your cyclone missiles, assault cannon, or combi weapons to kill more. Remember you can shoot anything, so you can kill hordes at thia point. Then roll for assault (I've only failed one so far, only need an 8 on two dice to get within 1" pile in, and can use cp for rerolls). Then go first and punch your enemy to death with power fists, chainfists, power weapons, etc.

No, you need a 9 to charge. Since you park more than 9" from the enemy, if you roll an 8, you are still more than 1" from them.

 Kirasu wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
If they're only 43 points then I can see them being decent as then they make terminators seem like a joke.

Termies have a 2+/5++ and DS without cp.

The 360 on the redemption makes me like it more. I love those little storm bolter turrets.

Yeah and worthless guns compared to 12+d6 shots. 8th is all about shooting. What good is a 2+/5++ if you can't actually accomplish anything?

6+D6 shots (or 12 + 2D6). It's pretty trivial to 2W T5 marines though.

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

Overcharged plasma (not primaris plasma) does not negate aggressor saves and does not require an invulnerable save from regular terminators.

sossen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

Overcharged plasma (not primaris plasma) does not negate aggressor saves and does not require an invulnerable save from regular terminators.

You are right. But in my local meta the plasma delyvery method of choice are hellblasters. So at least for me its a big diference.

 Kanluwen wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

I'm really frustrated by this. Like come on - we've already seen a picture of a captain primaris with a. Plasma pistol and a power fist. Just let them have some darn options, or at least ones that can be swapped for relics.

The Plasma Pistol and Power Fist model is a store birthday exclusive for 2017-2018.

Likely they didn't put it into the book to avoid people complaining about there being a book option that was only available from GW stores directly on certain dates.

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the hellblaster pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

Did they take down the FAQs for 40K. The link I have to them is dead.

j0hnnyllama wrote:

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the intercessods pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

Yeah. I understand not giving rules for things the company does not manufacture at all, but not taking in account simple weapon swaps between existing kits when writing the rules it taking it way too far. What's next, tactical marines can only take the missile launcher as their heavy weapon as that's the only option in that specific kit?

I'm not sure about Primaris now. I wanted a plasma pistol and axe wielding Captain.

The freaking Guard can take that!

 Kanluwen wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

I'm really frustrated by this. Like come on - we've already seen a picture of a captain primaris with a. Plasma pistol and a power fist. Just let them have some darn options, or at least ones that can be swapped for relics.

The Plasma Pistol and Power Fist model is a store birthday exclusive for 2017-2018.

Likely they didn't put it into the book to avoid people complaining about there being a book option that was only available from GW stores directly on certain dates.

Which is moronic when they could simply say "stick one of the four thousand different SM power fists on the regular Primaris Captain in place of the sword".

GW used to believe their customers could muster up enough wit to undertake basic conversions, evidently now they think we're all daft(either because they think we're too stupid to do them, or because they think we're too stupid to recognise their hilariously petty reason for doing this).

Maybe it's still fallout from the "if there's an option and you don't make it, other companies can make it for you" decisions of the past?

 d-usa wrote:
Maybe it's still fallout from the "if there's an option and you don't make it, other companies can make it for you" decisions of the past?

More likely than not, it's because they might want to try and put a different "role" with any future ones--or they might have a future model in mind with the other stuff which has a unique look or any number of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say I'm massively disappointed by the lack of options on Primaris characters. It is super boring that everyone's dudes will be exactly the same. And how the relics are handled makes it even worse; because they require specific weapons to be replaced, it means that Primaris only armies cannot use most of the relics at all.

I'm really frustrated by this. Like come on - we've already seen a picture of a captain primaris with a. Plasma pistol and a power fist. Just let them have some darn options, or at least ones that can be swapped for relics.

The Plasma Pistol and Power Fist model is a store birthday exclusive for 2017-2018.

Likely they didn't put it into the book to avoid people complaining about there being a book option that was only available from GW stores directly on certain dates.

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the hellblaster pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

And then you get people whining about how in order to field a Captain with X loadout, they have to also buy the Hellblaster box! It'd be an injustice!

 theharrower wrote:
Did they take down the FAQs for 40K. The link I have to them is dead.

Still work fine for me.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rules-Errata

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm not sure about Primaris now. I wanted a plasma pistol and axe wielding Captain.

The freaking Guard can take that!

Guard can't take Lasguns on Sergeants or Hot-shots on Tempestors yet DKoK, Elysians, and Neophyte Hybrids can.

Different things are different and sometimes it makes no sense why.

nekooni wrote:

 Flood wrote:

 Galas wrote:

sossen wrote:
The invulnerable save on regular terminators is almost useless, I don't think it can be considered relevant in the comparison to aggressors. Aggressors are at least as durable vs many of the weapons which will be used to kill 2 wound targets with good saves.

Like overchaged plasma that negates agressor saves but terminators can save with their invulnerable?

Um, if you overcharge plasma you are just outright slain, no? You don't 'suffer a wound', you get no save whatsoever.

I've yet to see a Terminator with a plasma weapon, so I'll answer for him: It's about getting HIT by supercharged Plasma weapons that hit at AP-3 for 2 damage at S8, so pretty much the perfect weapon to take out T4 W2 models.

...if it's AP -3 you would get a 5+ armor save anyway; the invul is literally pointless unless Melta or Lascannons are being pointed at you.

Hellblasters are all the rage these days, and their -4 to save makes a mockery of anything without an invul save.

I'm seeing Terminators in my opponents forces

 Quickjager wrote:


...if it's AP -3 you would get a 5+ armor save anyway; the invul is literally pointless unless Melta or Lascannons are being pointed at you.

Melta
Fusion pistols
Primaris plasma
Fighty characters

WinterSEO had a full review video up last night fellas, not sure if anyone posted it, I know I watched it and went to bed sorry, it was super late for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the intercessods pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

Yeah. I understand not giving rules for things the company does not manufacture at all, but not taking in account simple weapon swaps between existing kits when writing the rules it taking it way too far. What's next, tactical marines can only take the missile launcher as their heavy weapon as that's the only option in that specific kit?

Welcome to my world, it's been this case for 4 years with some of the other factions. DE in particular. You can't take gear from other boxes and put them on a character since the 5th ed book. Really stupid and IMO makes the primaris stuff terrible. I mean the redemptor is already in trouble IMO based on his cost and degrading profile, then you factor in he can take less options for long range and IMO I'd take the classic dread anyday, a normal marine dread with twin linked las canon will out shoot the redemtpor lol. He has two options for main gun and neither are very good outside shooting hordes. His CC fist also only ends up averaging 0.5 more damage then a standard dread, sure he can hit for 6, he can also hit for 1 though.

I am actually glad that there is reason to take the old school guys, there would be no reason to had they just made every primaris unit flat out better.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:


...if it's AP -3 you would get a 5+ armor save anyway; the invul is literally pointless unless Melta or Lascannons are being pointed at you.

Melta
Fusion pistols
Primaris plasma
Fighty characters

Already said that
Pretty much the same thing
True
True, but why are you using Tactical Termies?

Hmm. I kind of hoped that the Redemptor was salvageable when I saw the open chest picture. Leaving off the armor makes the model a lot better to me. 360s now paint a different picture. That's a lot of money for a model I'd have to put a lot of conversion work into to fix. One day, maybe.

Hey, if I wait long enough, maybe it'll appear in a start collecting box. GW loves putting Dreadnoughts in Marines ones.

 d-usa wrote:
Maybe it's still fallout from the "if there's an option and you don't make it, other companies can make it for you" decisions of the past?

I used to think this is the only reason (stupid as it is), but since Age of Sigmar (now reinforced with 8th ed 40k) I'm getting the impression that the designers are fully on board with a new approach to designing Warhammer rules and we're playing Combohammer now where you are expected to take one of only a few weapon loadouts and everything is split up into specialized squads. Real choice is a legacy rule to keep people with old models happy.

It's one of the big reasons I've been hesitant to buy into Primaris even though I like Marines. We get ever fewer choice in our clone troops.

 Red Corsair wrote:
WinterSEO had a full review video up last night fellas, not sure if anyone posted it, I know I watched it and went to bed sorry, it was super late for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvAr9DRmgQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the intercessods pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

Yeah. I understand not giving rules for things the company does not manufacture at all, but not taking in account simple weapon swaps between existing kits when writing the rules it taking it way too far. What's next, tactical marines can only take the missile launcher as their heavy weapon as that's the only option in that specific kit?

Welcome to my world, it's been this case for 4 years with some of the other factions. DE in particular. You can't take gear from other boxes and put them on a character since the 5th ed book. Really stupid and IMO makes the primaris stuff terrible. I mean the redemptor is already in trouble IMO based on his cost and degrading profile, then you factor in he can take less options for long range and IMO I'd take the classic dread anyday, a normal marine dread with twin linked las canon will out shoot the redemtpor lol. He has two options for main gun and neither are very good outside shooting hordes. His CC fist also only ends up averaging 0.5 more damage then a standard dread, sure he can hit for 6, he can also hit for 1 though.

I am actually glad that there is reason to take the old school guys, there would be no reason to had they just made every primaris unit flat out better.

It's worth noting that the Redemptor is the only degrading profile dread that lacks 2+ skill stats and an invulnerable save. If you take the lightest degrading dread as an example: A Contemptor starts at 2+, after it's first degradation drops to the skill and movement of a regular dread, and even at 1-2 wounds left a normal dread would be dead by that point, and it still has an invulnerable for those last two wounds.

Meanwhile a Redemptor has 5 bonus wounds, but degrades all the way down to 5+ skills and has no invulnerable save.

 Binabik15 wrote:


The Aggressors are...weak, IMO.

When a Raven guard dude pops six of them 9 inches next to you on turn one ill remember you said that.

62 shots with the bolters. Than 24D6 shots with the frag launchers.

 Crimson wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

Or they could, I don't know, kitbash a plasma pistol from the intercessods pack? That part of the hobby that everyone did with characters for 20 years. I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

Yeah. I understand not giving rules for things the company does not manufacture at all, but not taking in account simple weapon swaps between existing kits when writing the rules it taking it way too far. What's next, tactical marines can only take the missile launcher as their heavy weapon as that's the only option in that specific kit?

I've been watching youtube reviews of the codex this morning and that is the biggest disappointment. The removal of previously standard options like artificer armor or bikes for most characters (whether primaris or secondus) was a surprise as I figured the vanilla index list lack of options was just for brevity ala the 3rd edition rulebook that I started with. I suspect there are lots of character combos that are illegal now because GW doesn't happen to make a kit with that exact loadout despite that loadout being legal for a decade and constructable with 100% GW bits. The Primaris seem especially hit by this with from sergeants to captains in gravis armor having little to nothing in terms of customization. I'm working on my first ever primaris model as a custom Winged Lancers/Hussars custom chapter but I can't actually put Primaris on bikes nor arm them with power lances. Simply allowing access to the weapons lists for characters would fix that... expanding those lists to more than just weapons would help further.