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 Alpharius wrote:
Sheesh - settle down, please!

Sorry. It's just that I'm seeing this same thing on multiple websites and all over facebook and it's really getting tiresome. This new edition practically hands you a free VDR and all people seem to be able to do is whine about how this or that doesn't have a datasheet.

Dismissing it as 'whining' seems rather...dismissive.

I like options.

Maybe others don't care?

Either way, I can't help but think GW will wake up and give Primaris Marines a few more things to do eventually...

 Alpharius wrote:
Dismissing it as 'whining' seems rather...dismissive.

I like options.

Maybe others don't care?

Either way, I can't help but think GW will wake up and give Primaris Marines a few more things to do eventually...

I think you misunderstood. The poster you're responding to is telling you that you have options. In fact, you have way more than you used to. Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter. Make your own with the points lists. Only tournament organizers would take issue with that approach, but the game actively encourages it outside super serious match play.

I agree with the sentiment that these types of things are being way overblown.

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Sheesh - settle down, please!

Sorry. It's just that I'm seeing this same thing on multiple websites and all over facebook and it's really getting tiresome. This new edition practically hands you a free VDR and all people seem to be able to do is whine about how this or that doesn't have a datasheet.

Maybe because their own personal experience indicates that official actual rules from the company are more accepted even in casual pick up games with strangers and that their own experience outweighs your personal pet peeves? Even when there was an official VDR people didn't always accept it. Now you can sit there and pontificate about how 40k would be played in a fictional casual gamer's paradise but it might be better to simply accept that people don't like that they're getting inconvienced by the company they're giving money to. If you're seeing the same smoke everywhere, there may just be a fire.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh, yeah, there's no need at all to make weapons bigger - next to Primaris the existing weapon range actually begins to approach "properly" scaled. I still think it's bizarre that they scaled up the Marines and then gave them HUEG even-bigger-bolters to immediately negate that.

I'm not, since it isn't about GW 'properly scaling' things. Primaris are even-more-bigger SM, not any sort of attempt at 'truescale.' They're bigger models, they get bigger guns to keep to GW's 'heroic scale'

That would hold more water if not for the self-evident effort to fix the proportions for the Primaris models. They're not simply bigger heroic scale Space Marines, they're "truescale Marines" with a newshiny crispy sugar shell so they can be sold as an addition to the range rather than a replacement in the short term. Compare the Reiver weapons to regular Marines with a similar loadout - the pistols & knives aren't anywhere near as ridiculously oversized as the old models.

Just to reiterate, I wasn't saying ALL weapons needed to be bigger (I actually elaborated with observations from existing models in my last post here). Chainswords, some power axes and the combat knives on the tactical sprue just don't look right to me. Power swords vary greatly and some are kinda short. Moreover, there are also weapons for SM all the way back.. so I mean if we're just talking about what's currently in production.. eh, a lot of it's there.. But most people's bitz boxes (presumably) aren't restricted by what is currently on the shelf at the FLGS.. I've got 2nd ed weapon sprues and they actually look decent on "normal" marines.. but would look silly on Primaris.

 MLaw wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh, yeah, there's no need at all to make weapons bigger - next to Primaris the existing weapon range actually begins to approach "properly" scaled. I still think it's bizarre that they scaled up the Marines and then gave them HUEG even-bigger-bolters to immediately negate that.

I'm not, since it isn't about GW 'properly scaling' things. Primaris are even-more-bigger SM, not any sort of attempt at 'truescale.' They're bigger models, they get bigger guns to keep to GW's 'heroic scale'

That would hold more water if not for the self-evident effort to fix the proportions for the Primaris models. They're not simply bigger heroic scale Space Marines, they're "truescale Marines" with a newshiny crispy sugar shell so they can be sold as an addition to the range rather than a replacement in the short term. Compare the Reiver weapons to regular Marines with a similar loadout - the pistols & knives aren't anywhere near as ridiculously oversized as the old models.

Just to reiterate, I wasn't saying ALL weapons needed to be bigger (I actually elaborated with observations from existing models in my last post here). Chainswords, some power axes and the combat knives on the tactical sprue just don't look right to me. Power swords vary greatly and some are kinda short. Moreover, there are also weapons for SM all the way back.. so I mean if we're just talking about what's currently in production.. eh, a lot of it's there.. But most people's bitz boxes (presumably) aren't restricted by what is currently on the shelf at the FLGS.. I've got 2nd ed weapon sprues and they actually look decent on "normal" marines.. but would look silly on Primaris.

ya know, I wonder if some of the larger combat blades out there would make a good bayonet

 Alpharius wrote:
Dismissing it as 'whining' seems rather...dismissive.

I like options.

Maybe others don't care?

Either way, I can't help but think GW will wake up and give Primaris Marines a few more things to do eventually...

My current hope is for a dedicated tank hunting unit. Something with Meltaguns and Melta Bombs. Possibly a Reiver spin off, something more actively aggressive than just long range heavy weapons.

 AduroT wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Dismissing it as 'whining' seems rather...dismissive.

I like options.

Maybe others don't care?

Either way, I can't help but think GW will wake up and give Primaris Marines a few more things to do eventually...

My current hope is for a dedicated tank hunting unit. Something with Meltaguns and Melta Bombs. Possibly a Reiver spin off, something more actively aggressive than just long range heavy weapons.

yeah, Primaris Marines could definatly use it, I'm not sure Melta would work best though, given the lack of delivery methods that arent basicly land raiders. they need something a bit longer ranged. maybe a Agressor varient, that swaps out the weaponry for some sort of Kark missile.

The lack of delivery is why I mentioned Reivers, as they've got the alternate deployment options. Won't get them into the sweet half range on the first turn, but at least gets them into the outside range.

 Bull0 wrote:

I didnt even notice that, I was too distracted by the fact he's trying to insert the magazine into a solid metal surface. The mag well appears to be filled in. Looks really dumb.

It might have a dust flap to prevent ingress of excessive pollutants when unloaded.

Lemondish wrote:
Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter.

Another way to write that would be: "Just because it isn't in the rules..."

The game has rules. People tend to play by those rules. Over time a lot of people make house rules sure, but house rules, by their very nature, acknowledge that they are not the rules. And it's not just about tournaments. There are tons of people who play random opponents in stores. The rules have to be consistent so that anyone can play anyone when they don't know each other.

"Just make up whatever" isn't a valid argument. It's a cop-out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter.

Another way to write that would be: "Just because it isn't in the rules..."

The game has rules. People tend to play by those rules. Over time a lot of people make house rules sure, but house rules, by their very nature, acknowledge that they are not the rules. And it's not just about tournaments. There are tons of people who play random opponents in stores. The rules have to be consistent so that anyone can play anyone when they don't know each other.

"Just make up whatever" isn't a valid argument. It's a cop-out.

Yeah. "Write your own rules" can be used to dismiss basically any criticism of the rules, but it is rather missing the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:

Just to reiterate, I wasn't saying ALL weapons needed to be bigger (I actually elaborated with observations from existing models in my last post here). Chainswords, some power axes and the combat knives on the tactical sprue just don't look right to me.

I just built a bunch of Reivers with chainswords, and I think they look absolutely fine.

Cant the primaris captain take a plasma pistol and power sword? The store birthday one has a plasma pistol and power fist. Maybe the datasheet in that box will be unique.

 Bull0 wrote:
Cant the primaris captain take a plasma pistol and power sword? The store birthday one has a plasma pistol and power fist. Maybe the datasheet in that box will be unique.

They can take a Power Sword, but no Plasma Pistol option.

If anything, I think we've now seen a preview of the Dark Angels book. We know they have some special things for the Chapters planned, as evidenced by this from the PDF download:

Intercessor Sergeants from the Blood Angels and Space
Wolves Chapters cannot take a power sword as an option, but
can instead take a chainsword. Intercessor Sergeants from
the Deathwatch Chapter can take either a power sword or
a chainsword as an option. Intercessor Sergeants from the
Dark Angels Chapter can take a power sword as an option
as normal.

There's no Chainsword option from the built Intercessors we've seen so far.

warboss wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Sheesh - settle down, please!

Sorry. It's just that I'm seeing this same thing on multiple websites and all over facebook and it's really getting tiresome. This new edition practically hands you a free VDR and all people seem to be able to do is whine about how this or that doesn't have a datasheet.

Maybe because their own personal experience indicates that official actual rules from the company are more accepted even in casual pick up games with strangers and that their own experience outweighs your personal pet peeves? Even when there was an official VDR people didn't always accept it. Now you can sit there and pontificate about how 40k would be played in a fictional casual gamer's paradise but it might be better to simply accept that people don't like that they're getting inconvienced by the company they're giving money to. If you're seeing the same smoke everywhere, there may just be a fire.

Yes, exactly!

(Exalted!)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter.

Another way to write that would be: "Just because it isn't in the rules..."

The game has rules. People tend to play by those rules. Over time a lot of people make house rules sure, but house rules, by their very nature, acknowledge that they are not the rules. And it's not just about tournaments. There are tons of people who play random opponents in stores. The rules have to be consistent so that anyone can play anyone when they don't know each other.

"Just make up whatever" isn't a valid argument. It's a cop-out.

It does feel that way, doesn't it?

Lemondish wrote:
I think you misunderstood. The poster you're responding to is telling you that you have options. In fact, you have way more than you used to. Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter. Make your own with the points lists. Only tournament organizers would take issue with that approach, but the game actively encourages it outside super serious match play.

I'm sorry, but this is BS. I haven't been actively playing the whole time, but I've been playing since 3rd dropped, and I've never seen a holmebrew-friendly environment short of maybe a bit after those vehicle design rules dropped, where people talked more positively about it, but still never played them.

Unless you're playing at home or a club (i.e. people know you well and probably expect you to be reasonable about making rules and/or responding to being told your rules are broken) or with the friendliest of store environments, I've never seen a situation where homebrews, even homebrew scenarios, were looked at as anything more positive than a neat idea that one could tinker with.

The army-wide gear costs make it way easier for simple homebrews (i.e. illegal weapon combos because you feel it's fluffy), but that doesn't make it a good option. Also, it's still asking players to make rules that GW didn't bother to make, even if GW is pro using illegal gear combos right after they've started trying to shrink existing gear combos to only what they sell in a single kit, and assumes a lot of things about one's ability to balance.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I think you misunderstood. The poster you're responding to is telling you that you have options. In fact, you have way more than you used to. Just because it isn't on the data sheet doesn't matter. Make your own with the points lists. Only tournament organizers would take issue with that approach, but the game actively encourages it outside super serious match play.

I'm sorry, but this is BS. I haven't been actively playing the whole time, but I've been playing since 3rd dropped, and I've never seen a holmebrew-friendly environment short of maybe a bit after those vehicle design rules dropped, where people talked more positively about it, but still never played them.

Unless you're playing at home or a club (i.e. people know you well and probably expect you to be reasonable about making rules and/or responding to being told your rules are broken) or with the friendliest of store environments, I've never seen a situation where homebrews, even homebrew scenarios, were looked at as anything more positive than a neat idea that one could tinker with.

The army-wide gear costs make it way easier for simple homebrews (i.e. illegal weapon combos because you feel it's fluffy), but that doesn't make it a good option. Also, it's still asking players to make rules that GW didn't bother to make, even if GW is pro using illegal gear combos right after they've started trying to shrink existing gear combos to only what they sell in a single kit, and assumes a lot of things about one's ability to balance.

Apology accepted. Though I am absolutely certain you had the ability to approach that a bit better. Perhaps by saying "I disagree, and this is why" rather than outright calling this perspective 'gak'. Perhaps that's just the toxicity of this community.

For the last 12 years of my (admittedly on and off) involvement with this hobby, it has only ever been in friendly store environments (in multiple cities over the years) that absolutely cherish and promote homebrew opportunities at every turn, whether it be via rules and scenarios or through conversions. With the Indexes (and now Codexes) designed they way they are, there's never been a better time! The only environment I know of that actively discourages it is the competitive tournament scene, and they are honestly such a small minority that I'm confused why that minority would be the ones to emulate when hobbyists just trying to have fun are much, much more numerous.

Moving on, though - having the same size shoulder pads definitely helps with those conversions.

Lemondish wrote:

For the last 12 years of my (admittedly on and off) involvement with this hobby, it has only ever been in friendly store environments (in multiple cities over the years) that absolutely cherish and promote homebrew opportunities at every turn, whether it be via rules and scenarios or through conversions.

You truly are a lucky gamer then. For those of us unable to regularly play in Ponyville or the Smurf Village, a blanket disallowing of fan rules In casual pickup games is at best a realistic possibility and frequently the baseline to expect. YMMV.

I do not envy those whose only option is to hope that a game with a stranger will turn out to be enjoyable while expecting the rules to somehow protect them from their fellow gamers.

If you are reliant on pick up games and play an enjoyable game with a like minded fellow gamer, get organized and exchange contact info. It won't take long to build up a list of people that you know and trust.

Then if someone makes a primaris captain with a power sword and plasma pistol you can just point it up and get on with the game.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I do not envy those whose only option is to hope that a game with a stranger will turn out to be enjoyable while expecting the rules to somehow protect them from their fellow gamers.

If you are reliant on pick up games and play an enjoyable game with a like minded fellow gamer, get organized and exchange contact info. It won't take long to build up a list of people that you know and trust.

Then if someone makes a primaris captain with a power sword and plasma pistol you can just point it up and get on with the game.

This..
This is why I don't really even bother with stores any more. A lot of the people have a chip on their shoulder or just want to beat on that WAAC drum with some kind of tourney/netlist.. Competitive play can be fun but if it's all the 40k you know you're missing out. Hell, GW used to massively encourage creating your own rules and scenarios (and models and terrain.. Thunderhawk and Baneblade instructions ftw). VDR was a bit of a monstrosity but it also made for some crazy matchups.. It actually kinda makes me sad that both the idea of custom rules and conversions seems to be diminished greatly in the community.. and.. met with snide and derision when brought to mention in a public forum. Sad indeed..

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Cant the primaris captain take a plasma pistol and power sword? The store birthday one has a plasma pistol and power fist. Maybe the datasheet in that box will be unique.

They can take a Power Sword, but no Plasma Pistol option.

If anything, I think we've now seen a preview of the Dark Angels book. We know they have some special things for the Chapters planned, as evidenced by this from the PDF download:

Intercessor Sergeants from the Blood Angels and Space
Wolves Chapters cannot take a power sword as an option, but
can instead take a chainsword. Intercessor Sergeants from
the Deathwatch Chapter can take either a power sword or
a chainsword as an option. Intercessor Sergeants from the
Dark Angels Chapter can take a power sword as an option
as normal.

There's no Chainsword option from the built Intercessors we've seen so far.

What the feth, why this arbitrary distinction on weapons? feth that, my blood angel sergeants are having power swords.

 Bull0 wrote:

What the feth, why this arbitrary distinction on weapons? feth that, my blood angel sergeants are having power swords.

If I had to guess, it might be for the purposes of Relics/wargear for their books.

Specific items(down to "Master-Crafted" being a requirement on some!) are what get replaced by Relics.

I've modelled them now. That's dumb. Oh well, their power swords will have to count as chainswords. Let's give power swords to the ultramarines, who have the magic power to fall back and shoot, but let's not give them to the assault-focused marines, they can have wonderful chainswords instead!

They've probably put a power axe on the blood angel primaris upgrades or something stupid

 warboss wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

For the last 12 years of my (admittedly on and off) involvement with this hobby, it has only ever been in friendly store environments (in multiple cities over the years) that absolutely cherish and promote homebrew opportunities at every turn, whether it be via rules and scenarios or through conversions.

You truly are a lucky gamer then. For those of us unable to regularly play in Ponyville or the Smurf Village, a blanket disallowing of fan rules In casual pickup games is at best a realistic possibility and frequently the baseline to expect. YMMV.

Classy. Way to really put out that positive vibe and keep things civil. A freaking shuriken is less edgier than you are.

The truth is, while it may be harder to bring custom rules into a pickup game, this is only true in the aspect of "literally grabbing someone and playing a game NAOW"
I schedule all my pickup games ahead of time specifically so that I can talk to my opponent and come up with a fun game.
But if I can't do that, I can talk to my opponent and come up with a fun game.
It's not hard/difficult and it takes very little time. No excuses (unless there is a language barrier, only permissable excuse, those are hard to deal with.)

Neronoxx wrote:
Classy. Way to really put out that positive vibe and keep things civil. A freaking shuriken is less edgier than you are.

It was actually meant to be humorous (albeit in a sarcastic tone). I suppose I should have added an orkmoticon to better communicate that. Just to be clear though... I prefer caltrops because my comments are pointedly sharp.

I think most people see the matched play rules as the most balanced and as the "default" version of the game.

If you want to meet with your opponent and discuss another way to play that's fine, but it's not unreasonable for that to require their permission, and not something you should expect from a pick up game, or be upset at if someone wants to follow the normal rules.

Neronoxx wrote:

I schedule all my pickup games ahead of time specifically so that I can talk to my opponent and come up with a fun game.

By definition, those are not pick up games. Scheduling and determining what kind of game is going to be played in advance is literally the opposite of a pick-up game.
There isn't anything wrong with it, but it's a bit different to going 'round to the shop on game night, finding out who's there, and pulling stuff out of a bag.

jcd386 wrote:I think most people see the matched play rules as the most balanced and as the "default" version of the game.

If you want to meet with your opponent and discuss another way to play that's fine, but it's not unreasonable for that to require their permission, and not something you should expect from a pick up game, or be upset at if someone wants to follow the normal rules.

Has anyone claimed that anyone should be able to expect it? Seems really obvious that this is the sort of thing you have to talk about to make happen.

The datasheet should have just had all the options but at least the weapon costs and stats are right there to use when going DIY.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at the forgeworld Mars and Ryza pattern heavy weapons available individually on eBay I think I might convert up some Intercessors to be able to have the weapon options of tactical and devastator squads.

Would I assume that an opponent I've never late before will just accept non standard weapons? Or get upset f they don't want to even try it? Not at all.

Looking at the Ultra's upgrade sprue again, does anyone think its possible there could be a 2nd one in the future? Both Reivers and Inceptors have different styles of shoulder pads to those in the upgrade sprue. While there probably compatible with the included pads, the WD blurb doesn't mention them in the description.

I mentioned that it shouldn't be expected because it seemed like people were getting up in arms at the very mention of it, and others seemed irritated that house rules wouldn't be accepted. Much of this attitude is the fault of written words being somewhat harder to clearly convey emotion and people's normal tendency to get defensive about this stuff.

I think in real life most (though probably not all) people are reasonable about these things. We all just want to have fun playing the game we love, after all.

Using count as models seems fine to me as long as they are of similar size and it's easy to tell what is what. In my experience, most people share my opinion on count as models. I even use some in my custom space marine chapter and so far haven't had any issues. To me these require an explanation to your opponent, but not their permission, assuming you meet some kind of reasonable standard, which it is your responsibility to do.

Using illegal models, units, and weapons is a somewhat different issue, as you are no longer playing the same game as you would be otherwise. This can be fine, of course, but --according to my understanding of gaming etiquette, which could be wrong i suppose-- does require the other player's permission. So, although you certainly could make up your own datasheets, i don't think it is unreasonable for other players to not accept that as a valid solution to the issue.