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Kroem wrote: That's interesting that she is different in the books, all I meant by the Hollywood ending is that it is too predictable and the same as a lot of other endings. Not that she was literally captainess America!
The series was at its best with things like Ned dying and the red wedding which were unusual and shocking so I hope they have some more twists up their sleeves.
The Books and the Show are increasingly divergent -usually thats a good thing - Dany's whole stroyline from where she reaches Meerem is far far better in the show. On the other hand - Dorn is shockingly bad in the show.
Ned and the Red Wedding were both in the books - and great moments in both media.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Grey Worm must have taken his sweet time getting to le rock. That Greyjoy guy had time to attack the first fleet, take his prisoners back home for a victory parade and meet with the queen, then head back out and get himself to le rock in time for worm's attack.
Thats one thing thats been bothering me slightly with this new season. The show writers need people meeting often for all these plot points, so characters travel vast swathes in what seems like a day... if its really been week (s) of time spent traveling, I bet the Night King has been slowly walking this whole time. Hes probably waaaaayy closer then they think
This third episode was a fairly straight forward one, really. Jon and Daenerys relationship starts as is needed, and the war starts as needed.
The biggest moment, the one that revealed something really new came, I think, from the short conversation between Melisandre and Varys.
Spoiler:
Varys - If you don't mind my saying, I don't think you should return to Westeros. I'm not sure you'd be safe here.
Melisandre - Oh, I will return, dear Spider. One last time. I have to die in this strange country. Just like you.
Varys looked genuinely shocked at the prediction of his own death, which is interesting in itself, but I think the more interesting part is what is left unsaid - it won't be only those two dying. To me I suspect she's hinting at cataclysm, the deaths most, if not everyone. The prince that was promised isn't just there to bring an end to the White Walkers, but an end to everything in cataclysmic fire.
What makes me think this is how it works with what we've seen about prophecy in the show so far, these things are always true, but never quite as anyone expected. Jon or Daenerys being the Prince is fairly straightforward, having them turn out to be not quite the hero figure is a real twist.
The other thing that occurred to me while watching this episode and Bran's conversation with Sansa, although it wasn't prompted by anything in that conversation, is that if every Stark child's fate is mirrored in their direwolf's, and Bran's wolf sacrficed itself to hold back the army of the dead and allow others to escape, is that to be Bran's fate as well. Whether it happens at Winterfell when the army of the dead come, or perhaps linked to the above I don't know.
Kroem wrote: That's interesting that she is different in the books, all I meant by the Hollywood ending is that it is too predictable and the same as a lot of other endings. Not that she was literally captainess America!
The series was at its best with things like Ned dying and the red wedding which were unusual and shocking so I hope they have some more twists up their sleeves.
Nothing in the show has ever played predictably, there's no reason to expect it to start doing do now.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The other thing that occurred to me while watching this episode and Bran's conversation with Sansa, although it wasn't prompted by anything in that conversation, is that if every Stark child's fate is mirrored in their direwolf's, and Bran's wolf sacrficed itself to hold back the army of the dead and allow others to escape, is that to be Bran's fate as well. Whether ithappens at Winterfell when the army of the dead come, or perhaps linked to the above I don't know.
Don't forget Lady/Sansa.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
...and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.
Does that mean there's still more bad stuff coming for Sansa? Or was the suffering Sansa already suffered sufficient to equal that suffered by Lady, in which case possibly is the suffering Bran's already been through already enough to mirror his own direwolf's fate? Is the whole thing just a neat narrative convention and not actually a hard set of rules and I'm way off base?
Probably that last one
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/31 15:20:23
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I see a lot of attempts to inject parallels between the Starks and their Dire Wolves, but realistically there's not anything there. There's certainly some thematic ties here and there but the only 2 that shared a fate died alongside their Stark in the same event.
...and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.
Does that mean there's still more bad stuff coming for Sansa? Or was the suffering Sansa already suffered sufficient to equal that suffered by Lady, in which case possibly is the suffering Bran's already been through already enough to mirror his own direwolf's fate? Is the whole thing just a neat narrative convention and not actually a hard set of rules and I'm way off base?
Probably that last one
There are certainly some intentional parallels between the wolves. Arya/Nymeria both go solo. Jon/Ghost, I mean come on, his name is Ghost.
Spoiler:
Personally, I think Sansa will eventually die at the hands of the Night King. Have there been any female White Walkers? I honestly haven't payed attention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 18:12:45
I really enjoyed this episode mainly because of the interesting narrative they have started weaving around the Targaryen court.
With the loss of Ser Jorah and Daario we have seen the more cautious 'Dove' faction dominating discussions, this has been good for diplomacy but means the Targaryen forces have lost a lot of the dynamism that brought them such success in their early campaigns.
I like the way they have built this up over the last two episodes by showing us rather than telling us that it is happening, we can see how dithering on Dragonstone and relying on overly complicated and risk adverse plans has let the Lannisters steal the initiative and defeat the larger Targaryen forces in detail.
This felt very authentic to me, you see this type of thing happen in lots of successful teams. I will be very interested to see how it plays out especially with the return of Ser Jorah.
I still think the way the thing will end will be as a truce being renewed between the White Walkers.
However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?
I've been thinking a bunch about how Jon is doomed to inherit the title of the new Nights King. But, potentially, what if there is no 'new' Nights King but, instead Sansa is married to the current one? - One of the tales earlier in the show was about how the Nights Watch Commander married one of the White Walker ladies to become the Nights King. What if, now, that's reversed?
Potentially the whole 'King in the North' issue could be sidestepped with a Jon and Dany marriage. - Which feeds back into my earlier ideas about there needing to be an 'injection' of Stark blood into the Targaryen lineage to stave off the inbreeding issues.
I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?
I have a feeling what's gonna happen is the wakers are already past the wall. Didn't they show a map implying that you could go around the side of the wall somehow? You would probably need boats, but still. Shennigans will happen somewhere along the line that will make Cerci will feel like she has to join them to wipe out the targarians and starks, and just because she hates everyone. She'll become the night queen, with most of the last few episodes of the show being one big epic battle.
Compel wrote: However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?
My wild ass guess is that Jon falls for, and then is forced to kill, Daenerys... or did Azor Ahai only have to do that once?
I also can't really tie Jon Snow to "salt and smoke", so maybe vice versa makes more sense.
No, I think Jon has already killed his "Nissa Nissa"...Ygritte. Albeit indirectly. He killed her when he abandoned her and chose to stay true to the Night's Watch.
The "Salt" is often believed to be the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears (or in the show, Olly perhaps) when he stabbed Jon Snow. The "Smoke" is the steam that rose from Jon Snow's wounds in the cold air.
And thirdly, Jon was born under a bleeding star. Arthur Dayne's famous sword "Dawn" was allegedly forged from a falling star, and it was bloodied when Ned Stark carried it into the room and laid it beside the bed in which Jon was born. So Jon meets the "born under a bleeding star" criteria too.
Compel wrote: However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?
My wild ass guess is that Jon falls for, and then is forced to kill, Daenerys... or did Azor Ahai only have to do that once?
I also can't really tie Jon Snow to "salt and smoke", so maybe vice versa makes more sense.
No, I think Jon has already killed his "Nissa Nissa"...Ygritte. Albeit indirectly. He killed her when he abandoned her and chose to stay true to the Night's Watch.
The "Salt" is often believed to be the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears (or in the show, Olly perhaps) when he stabbed Jon Snow. The "Smoke" is the steam that rose from Jon Snow's wounds in the cold air.
And thirdly, Jon was born under a bleeding star. Arthur Dayne's famous sword "Dawn" was allegedly forged from a falling star, and it was bloodied when Ned Stark carried it into the room and laid it beside the bed in which Jon was born. So Jon meets the "born under a bleeding star" criteria too.
I'll give you the Nissa Nissa, but oh man the rest seems like a super long reach.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Necros wrote:I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).
Necros wrote:I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).
He was very careful. And unlike maybe a senior one, he had fear.
Fear breeds care, and caution.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Kroem wrote: I really enjoyed this episode mainly because of the interesting narrative they have started weaving around the Targaryen court.
With the loss of Ser Jorah and Daario we have seen the more cautious 'Dove' faction dominating discussions, this has been good for diplomacy but means the Targaryen forces have lost a lot of the dynamism that brought them such success in their early campaigns.
I like the way they have built this up over the last two episodes by showing us rather than telling us that it is happening, we can see how dithering on Dragonstone and relying on overly complicated and risk adverse plans has let the Lannisters steal the initiative and defeat the larger Targaryen forces in detail.
This felt very authentic to me, you see this type of thing happen in lots of successful teams. I will be very interested to see how it plays out especially with the return of Ser Jorah.
Agreed - Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will loose a dragon next - just to really tip the balance in Cerci's favour.
If she had emulated her ancestors and arrived with fire and death it would all be over now - she would be rebuilding and showing her "nice" side so when the upstart "King of the North" comes in grumpily demanding aid she would have been in a even stronger position. Of course that would have made the show end far far to quickly so we have the great drama we have now.
Euron is steeling the show at the moment (he was awesome in the courtroom) but its all very good - characters are dying and the plot is progressing still!
Shennigans will happen somewhere along the line that will make Cerci will feel like she has to join them to wipe out the targarians and starks, and just because she hates everyone. She'll become the night queen, with most of the last few episodes of the show being one big epic battle.
I think so to (hence the cold air coming out of her mouth) - and I doubt she would need much pushing to join anyone who can wreak vengeance on her enemies. That does mean that the army of the dead has to actually stop stumbling around lost in their own snowstorm - how long have they been marching now - talk about narrative time Of course Cerci may become pregnant again - line of succession, something that Dany really needs to think more about.
Sam and healing - no he is just generally super special and great - apparently. At least he was not completely and constantly annoying in this episode.
Varys and Mel were good - interesting he looked shocked at the though of dying in Westros - where did he think he was going to die!
All in all another good episode.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 07:20:40
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
If she had emulated her ancestors and arrived with fire and death it would all be over now
Haha well I'm not sure only listening to the Hawks would have been a good idea either, but she definitely could have used her forces more aggressively.
Imagine how different things would have been if she had Dolthraki raiders pinning down Lannister forces and harassing their supply lines around Kings Landing, they certainly wouldn't have been free to launch a surprise attack on High Garden.
something that Dany really needs to think more about
I thought she was infertile after giving birth to the horse mutant?
I'm sure the healer in that scene says that she will never have another child, that's why she calls the dragons her children.
At the end of last season with dani's fleet sailing across the sea it looked like a slam dunk she would take the iron throne, but I like how they have let the Lannister score several early wins. Euron has played a big part in that. His character is the best part of the series so far, some of his lines "a finger in the bum". It now feels like Dani could lose, even if we know she won't.
Is Dorn now out of the picture? Given that their army etc hasn't been involved I feel like they may still have a role to play at the end, keeping Ellaria alive in the dungeon may come back to haunt Cersi.
The battle scenes were a bit of a let down, it felt like the minimum they could get away with while showing a battle took place, but then we only really had known characters on one side of each battle, so it would have just been a bunch of no names fighting. I guess they were saving the production budget for when it really matters.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
The first two episodes of 7th seemed a bit poor to me but the third has rekindled my joy of the series and my faith that it is going to be good has been restored. I am not sure how to explain how the first two made me feel but I wasn't impressed by them. I think it was because not a lot happened other than people came together and the upcoming setting was created. I guess you always have the first couple of episodes for a new series to find its footing so am pleased that it's back on track. I think this episode gave individuals a chance to shine rather than have a lot of characters share the stage at one time. The Lady Olenna scene was boss.
Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.
Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?
All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*
My CF blog 
Of course Cerci may become pregnant again - line of succession, something that Dany really needs to think more about.
