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 Frazzled wrote:
Bab 5's intros and BSG's just beat the crap out of any of them but STOS.

And when I say BSG I mean both series.

I agree with this.



I ended up seeing about a third of the Enterprise series because it happened to play at the time of day when I had to wash dishes. Other than the mirror episodes and terrorist Robocop, it was pretty forgettable. My friends had a big get together for the final episode, which pretty much ensured we'd never buy the DVD's or watch reruns.



Of course, if someone puts a (Ships Only) edit on YouTube, like they have for the films and TNG, I'd definitely watch that.

I wish they would release a Mirror Universe box set

I would agree with DJ. I liked Enterprises opening theme and thought it was very fitting for what the show tried to do.

It just didn't do that thing well.

 Frazzled wrote:
Bab 5's intros and BSG's just beat the crap out of any of them but STOS.

And when I say BSG I mean both series.

Agreed. There were some great intros in the 70s.

This is one of the very best openings in television history IMO:

I liked a chunk of season 4 of enterprise.
The "mirror, darkly" eps were a nice change.

Seeing Peter Weller on TV again was always a good thing.

 Breotan wrote:
Like all the other TV Treks (other than ToS) there was no adventure, less interesting stories, and a enough technobabble to give Voyager a run for its money. If TV Guide were still around they'd list the current episode with the sentence, "The crew struggles with some manufactured crisis while T'Pol goes into heat. Again."

Then there was the whole "that thing you like from the other show, well we actually did it first" theme that ran through the series.

The time travel plot of the show was boring drivel on its best day.

The series is only good for those two Mirror universe episodes. Otherwise it's completely irrelevant to the franchise, sort of like the TNG movies.

Oh, and the whole anti-military theme of the third season got old fast. "Let's put Marines on the ship and call them Makos so the crew can hate them because they're military and deserve to be hated because they're not enlightened like the rest of us. Then they can try to take over the ship every other episode because that's what the military does when they're on a ship." I swear the writing hit a level of childishness that even TNG couldn't manage.

Not having a gigantic warmurderboner = childishness. What an odd perspective. Also one that's evidently coloured your recollections of the series, given the MACO plotline was pretty much the opposite of your characterisation and ended, like most of DS9, as a repudiation of the standard "pacifist explorers only club" tone of Star Trek - Reed recognising his problem with the MACOs was more about his own macho insecurities eventually coming to respect and rely on them, and Archer coming to the view that the Galaxy is a dangerous place and having trained soldiers on-hand when needed wasn't a bad idea afterall hardly sounds "anti-military". Then again usually when I see people deploy phrases like "anti-military" what they mean is "anything other than total and unequivocal support for modern centrist-interventionist dogma", so it's not that surprising that you'd dislike a plotline that actually bothers to walk the characters through the process of changing their minds on the subject rather than just immediately declaring that Starfleet are hippie-weenies then running 45 minutes of an American flag waving gently in the breeze while the Team America theme plays on repeat.

As to the topic - Enterprise isn't bad, hell on occasion it was a better Star Trek show(though not a better TV show) than DS9(which also spent more time deconstructing Star Trek than deconstructing modern society, ie entirely missing the point). The earlier episodes were fairly average, awkward gel-rubbing nonsense aside, but a lot of folk write them off because they're "more of the same" and for some reason I continue to fail to fathom a lot of people profess to like something and then get really annoyed when it doesn't radically change in tone and content the moment they become even momentarily bored of it. The Vulcan and Andorian arc is actually really good IMO, more stories in that vein would have been welcome. I even quite like the Phlox-centric stories though a lot of people seem to really despise that character for some reason.

The problem is the show couldn't decide who the audience it wanted to appeal to was. They made compromises to try and appeal to non-Trek fans that annoyed the Trek fans, but they also refused to stray too far from the basic Trek formula so people who didn't like Trek still didn't find much to like. It didn't help that most of the time travel stuff was either boring or flat-out slowed, or that Quantum Leap Guy didn't really have the chops to pull off the whole "Star Trek: 24" nonsense they tried to insert with the Xindi arc.

 gorgon wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Bab 5's intros and BSG's just beat the crap out of any of them but STOS.

And when I say BSG I mean both series.

Agreed. There were some great intros in the 70s.

This is one of the very best openings in television history IMO:

Spoiler:

Dallas had the best opening. It's so good that people even make mash-up videos using it as the theme to their favorite show.







There are others, but not done as well as these.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I wish they would release a Mirror Universe box set

Not sure if its of interest, but I did see that a new range of comic books set in the mirror universe was due to be released (one episode has a cover with a goatee'd Picard on the cover) - will see if I can find more details.

 Pacific wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I wish they would release a Mirror Universe box set

Not sure if its of interest, but I did see that a new range of comic books set in the mirror universe was due to be released (one episode has a cover with a goatee'd Picard on the cover) - will see if I can find more details.

Thansk it does osund intersting - I have quite a few of the novels

Hell they should have just said @#$% it Season 5 will be ALL MIRROR UNIVERSE ALL THE TIME.

Everyone gets a goatee, even Hoshi!

Oh T'Pol ....

Hm? What? Huh? Why no, I wasn't daydreaming rather than paying attention to the thread ...

Hey, the producers of the show knew where their assets were and they didn't have a lot to work with

I think no one cares because it is ubiquitous without having an identity of its own. Same with most tv today. I really like Dark Space. I really like Killjoys. I can't keep their plot lines straight. Which one has the ironic femal ship computer if only she were human again? We have a glut of great stuff right now. that and nobody has an attention span beyond a mouse.


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 Manchu wrote:


Oh T'Pol ....

Hm? What? Huh? Why no, I wasn't daydreaming rather than paying attention to the thread ...

Yup. Exactly.

loved that series much more so then ds9 or voyager. That intro song to enterprise, my favorite opening song in a tv that ive ever seen. though firefly was close.

ssisal wrote:
loved that series much more so then ds9 or voyager. That intro song to enterprise, my favorite opening song in a tv that ive ever seen. though firefly was close.

After seeing a few a dozen times it's a bit of earworm but I can't say I like it.

The imagery however is stellar. Going from rafts to sailing ships to planes, to the real life space shuttle enterprise to the fictional ships was brilliant and a reminder of why ST appeals. It's a show that stubbornly insists we're going to make it and things are going to get better. And that's a message worth repeating.

If only they'd done it without the grotty Rod Stewart song over the top.

The version that was used for the Mirror universe episode was amusing, too.

Almost done with season 4-When Fanboys Attack.

SO MUCH FANFIC!

I mean OK Dr Soong and Khan's supermen vs the Klingons is cool. Maybe not a 3 part episode worth of cool, but cool. And Brent Spinner is fun.

But then following it up with a 2 parter explaining why the TOS and TNG Klingons look different? No, no one care, no.

They dealt with it in DS9 in one sentence "We don't talk about them".

Lessee Nazis, Orion slavers (twice!), some long thing about Andorans (no one cares about Andorans!), Archer overthrows the Vulcan government and replaced them with religious fundamentalists, nothing can go wrong with that.

There was one really good episode where a plague is loose on the ship and various members are possessed by two alien observers making cynical observations. Very, very good, very Star Trek. A bit of fan fic when the aliens turn out to be the Orions, but overall quite good.

A two parter with the Romulans was a nice tease of what could have been.

And of course the Mirror Universe episode, but again, not just Mirror Universe, it was also Tholians, Gorn and TOS USS Reliant. Just a bit too much...

Heading into the final episodes now, founding the Federation and such and then the revelation the whole show was Riker's holodeck program...

The big weakness is still the cast. T'Pol can't tell the difference between logical and bored, the black guy and the Asian girl are just non-entities, and Quantum Leap is just wrong in the part. British dude is OK and the Doctor is fun. Good Ole Boy engineer I'm on the fence about.

Yeah. I felt that Season 3 was overall an improvement over the first two, and in spite of the shoe horned time travel story line. Then Season 4 comes, which just consisted of all the writer's fan fic fantasies made manifest. The only good episodes in my opinion were the two part In a Mirror, Darkly and the two parter on Vulcan that made the Vulcans less dickish. The Romulan drone ship stuff was good too. A complete cop out on that season for never giving us the Earth-Romulan War. EDIT: Was the borg episode season 4 or 2? The borg episode that tied into First Contact I enjoyed.

And I'm totally with you Kid on the explanation for why TOS an TNG Klingon's looked different. That entire plot was just slowed, and a pointless explanation for something that didn't need to be explained.

If I'm being honest, it was pretty bang average. Boring characters, average acting, and average stories. It was like TNG with a bigger budget.

When you've sampled Babylon 5, Farscape, BSG, and even DS9, you could never go back to a re-heated TNG.

I like TNG, but if I want to watch it, I'll watch it, and not another series in the same mould.

Funnily enough, I dipped back into it after reading this thread.
Towards the end of season one atm. Its been hit and miss so far and hasnt really grabbed my attention.

I think Voyager is easier to return to. Once you've had your expectations reset by reality and time to come to terms with psychotic Janeway, Poor Dumb Harry, Hamdoctor, Wooden Indian, Bored Vulcan and the rest, you can enjoy the show for what it was. with Enterprise, I feel like once you sift past the stupid and the wasteful, there isn't any charm underneath it all.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think Voyager is easier to return to. Once you've had your expectations reset by reality and time to come to terms with psychotic Janeway, Poor Dumb Harry, Hamdoctor, Wooden Indian, Bored Vulcan and the rest, you can enjoy the show for what it was. with Enterprise, I feel like once you sift past the stupid and the wasteful, there isn't any charm underneath it all.

True, but Robert Picardo was The Cowboy, and no matter how bad his ham acting was in Voyager, I can forgive him, because he was The Cowboy

Picardo and 7 of 9 were the best parts of Voyager in my opinion. Particularly the interplay between them.

They're pretty much the main reason I watched the show.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think Voyager is easier to return to. Once you've had your expectations reset by reality and time to come to terms with psychotic Janeway, Poor Dumb Harry, Hamdoctor, Wooden Indian, Bored Vulcan and the rest, you can enjoy the show for what it was. with Enterprise, I feel like once you sift past the stupid and the wasteful, there isn't any charm underneath it all.

True, but Robert Picardo was The Cowboy, and no matter how bad his ham acting was in Voyager, I can forgive him, because he was The Cowboy

Loved The Cowboy. Also, JohnnyCab. And his role in Gremlins 2. He and 7/9 were by far the two most enjoyable actors to watch.

However, I know a lot of people who can't deal with a bit of ham.

It was too bright and cheery, clean and spacious, not enough feeling of risk given they're supposed to be space travel pioneers.

If I'd been in charge it would have been Das Boot in space. Cramped and confined, pipes, handles and levers everywhere, red lighting and dirty jumpsuits. Genuinely dangerous with hull leaks and fires when they take any damage. Shots of the crew running down corridors yelling at people to leap into their bunks to clear the way for them to manually load photon torpedoes.

Yes that would have been good-half Dad Boot half Apollo 13

I like that idea a lot, cut the crew to like a dozen, and have a no one is safe rule. Maybe not Game of Thrones level of death, but at least once a season put all the names in a hat and whoever you pull out is gone. Dead, crippled, transferred, resigned whatever.

Enterprise definitely suffered from the plot armor problem.

And a smaller dirtier ship would be nice too.

Maybe in 20 years when Paramont makes the prequel to Enterprise...

At that point, why even make Star Trek? Just buy the rights to a cheaper IP or create your own. Trek isn't a cheap universe to work in, and Apollo Boot would by dramatic necessity jettison most of the recognizable (and thus expensive) elements of the setting.

Best to leave Trek dead unless you have a good Star Trek story.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At that point, why even make Star Trek? Just buy the rights to a cheaper IP or create your own. Trek isn't a cheap universe to work in, and Apollo Boot would by dramatic necessity jettison most of the recognizable (and thus expensive) elements of the setting.

Best to leave Trek dead unless you have a good Star Trek story.

A good philosophical question. There's a reason Hollywood is doing is some many reboots, remakes and sequels is they know they have an uphill battle for awareness. These days if you have a phone and credit card you can watch (almost) anything every made any time you want. Why should I watch Howard Treesong's Apollo Boot when I've never heard of it? Now when there's a new show with the brand name of that show I liked when I was a kid on.

The 2000s Battlestar Galactica was miles away thematically from the 70s one, but does anyone think it would have succeeded without the brand name and familiar ship designs of the original?

That being said, if Howard and Bob launch Apollo Boot, I'll be sure to tune in!

BSG was pretty much a dead brand, financially and culturally. Apollo Boot might as well be Buck Rogers Lost In Space 1999. The names have the same amount of recognition as old BSG, but are far cheaper than a cash cow like Star Trek. Someone has to start new IPs or studios will never have the next Star Wars or Game of Tnrones. Pursuing the old IPs risks damaging the brands.