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 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

I don't think there was enough time to even beta test them. They've probably put to printers some months ago. GW knew they were going to do this. I can understand (and accept) that the indexes will be replaced over time but the way they have done this is simply a cash grab. They should just have released the initial pdfs for free, let people know the plan and then put a small number of books on sale that would prefer the books over print outs. I can understand people's frustration at this. Personally I would have been embarrassed to have put out that blog post.

Same old GW I'm afraid.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

To be clear... I have no problem with rules coming with models. I think this is a great idea. I just wish they included free rules with ALL models and not just for those new ones. When Warmahordes Mk3 recently released, stores received unit cards to hand out with pre-Mk3 product sales. GW could easily have done the same thing. They chose not to, presumably to force people into spending more on rules.

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

To be clear... I have no problem with rules coming with models. I think this is a great idea. I just wish they included free rules with ALL models and not just for those new ones. When Warmahordes Mk3 recently released, stores received unit cards to hand out with pre-Mk3 product sales. GW could easily have done the same thing. They chose not to, presumably to force people into spending more on rules.

They should be releasing the dataslates for free. It only provide power not points. It only provides the rules for weapon options on the sheet. Most options a model can take are not on there. It provides none of the army wide rules or psychic powers.

You still have a lot of reasons to buy the books, but anyone can buy a box, download the dataslate, and start playing open games to learn.

Not releasing the dataslates for free is notonly dumb, it's counter to their whole easier to pick up and play philosophy they seem to be running with.

 Kriswall wrote:
[
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Oh please X-Wing and Armada are good games but the "free" rules are a total smokescreen. The card system(and the tokens, so many tokens) means your quite often buying ships you have no interest in or use for, just to get the upgrade cards and rules.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Do people not buy books anymore? They were £15 pounds. You can't complain about a private company releasing products which are entirely optional to buy just because you can't afford them. Look at nearly every other company operating. New smartphones, new computers, new fashion... stuff is updated, new products are released and you can decide if you want to spend your money on them, or not. GW owes you nothing and you owe GW nothing.

So, um, 10 codex's and it looks like all of them for what I have, at ~$30 so some $300 just in books before Christmas.
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?
No it is not a shock, they ALL will be replaced eventually, it is the speed of just getting past buying all Indexes' and we are into a new flood of books as replacements.
If they were particularly evil they can "miss" defining a few units and say they are "still" covered in the Index which you need to buy as well!
Looks like the local gaming store will know me better than before with the regular product coming out.
Some core rules are becoming troublesome however, hopefully a FAQ or two may address them.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I'm really happy to have a codex. I play Raven Guard and today they play exactly the same as Ultra Marines or Imperial Fists. My jump troops are as good as Salamanders give or take a character. It cost me £15 to play the new game for a month, bit of a wounder but if I had to wait for Christmas for chapter tactics I'd have need much worse.

 luke1705 wrote:

So you would prefer that the indices were say, $50 like the codices of old? $25 for the ability to play 3-5 armies is literally next to free, and the digital bundles were even cheaper. Not sure what you were expecting but this is about as good as it gets.

Well, no, it's not 'as good as it gets'. If the indexes were only ever going to be a stopgap until the codex was released, they could have simply released the index rules as part of the core rules, as they did with 2nd edition and 3rd edition.

Paying for a book that is almost instantly invalidated by another book is always going to annoy people.

Aspects of Thom wrote:
I'm really happy to have a codex. I play Raven Guard and today they play exactly the same as Ultra Marines or Imperial Fists. My jump troops are as good as Salamanders give or take a character. It cost me £15 to play the new game for a month, bit of a wounder but if I had to wait for Christmas for chapter tactics I'd have need much worse.

Agreed. I am looking forward to my Crimson Fists being differentiated from Raven Guard. I wonder if they will be getting their own Chapter Rules this time around.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
[
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Oh please X-Wing and Armada are good games but the "free" rules are a total smokescreen. The card system(and the tokens, so many tokens) means your quite often buying ships you have no interest in or use for, just to get the upgrade cards and rules.

There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
So, um, 10 codex's and it looks like all of them for what I have, at ~$30 so some $300 just in books before Christmas.
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?
No it is not a shock, they ALL will be replaced eventually, it is the speed of just getting past buying all Indexes' and we are into a new flood of books as replacements.
If they were particularly evil they can "miss" defining a few units and say they are "still" covered in the Index which you need to buy as well!
Looks like the local gaming store will know me better than before with the regular product coming out.
Some core rules are becoming troublesome however, hopefully a FAQ or two may address them.

Codexes are more likely to be around 50 USD each. I'm not sure how much that is in monopoly money... err... CAD.

 Talizvar wrote:
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?

Answered in the Warhammer Community post:

Is every army getting new models too?
Some of them. Certain armies will get new miniatures alongside their new codex, and others won’t. Don’t worry though, our miniatures designers are working hard and we’ll get to all of you eventually – we’re well aware you all want new models for your chosen army.

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

WAKE UP SHEEPLE! THIS IS ALL A PLOT BY GW TO STEAL YOUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!!!!!

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

That's why I don't buy newspapers. Every day the previous day's version is invalidated.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

You realize this isn't happening in a vacuum right?

The hobby isn't only GW products.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

I'm guessing that comparison made more sense in your head. If you don't see the difference between a novel and a reference book, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

No. No. You're definitely right. Your one anecdote supersedes the last several years of release history.

Also, feel free to ignore my commentary. Nobody made you arbiter of this discussion.

To make my point a little clearer, since it's obviously missing the mark here, models released within a month of a new Codex will probably have rules in the Codex. Models released more than a month after a new Codex probably won't. You'll either have to get your rules from multiple sources (Index, Codex and box rules) OR you'll get your rules from a single source and never get new models (at least until the next version of the Codex comes out).

It would be great if all of an army's unit rules and army wide rules came from one source. I don't think it'll ever happen.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

I'm guessing that comparison made more sense in your head. If you don't see the difference between a novel and a reference book, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

You're right. An index book is far better as you can return to it again and again and again! A novel can only be read once (Maybe twice) I've poured over these Indexes (and will continue to do so) far more than if they had just been novels. Thanks for reminding me, Indexes are far better value than novels!

 NobodyXY wrote:
Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

You realize this isn't happening in a vacuum right?

The hobby isn't only GW products.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

Pretty much this. I like what I'm seeing, but a leopard doesn't change its spots. I'm fully expecting 8th Edition to have a fragmented and expensive rule set, just like 7th Edition.

 Hollow wrote:
You're right. An index book is far better as you can return to it again and again and again!

Until it is superceded by a new book.

People, for the most part, don't mind buying rulebooks. They do mind buying rulebooks that are only valid for a month before being replaced by a newer book.

If you don't have a problem with that, good for you. It's not as unreasonable a stance as you're trying to make it out to be, though.

A novel can only be read once (Maybe twice)

That's just crazy talk...

 Kriswall wrote:
[X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

When those one or two upgrades only come with an aces box or epic ship, things start to add up pretty quickly though.

GW collect there gameplay rules and general setting background into one book, with the rules and more detailed background for a specific faction in another book. FFG parcel the gameplay and faction rules out piecemeal with the models, while Disney handles the background Both methods have there positives and negatives but either way its done, if you want more than the bare bones experience your gonna have to pay more. I'm not going to pretend that 40k is a cheap hobby. But "insanely" more expensive? Guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one

That said when GW release a new version of there stupidly big SM codex in 12 months time because they have added three more Primaris units I reserve the right to be grumpy

I literally do not understand what the people are complaining about. That GW is releasing codices? We knew that they would. Perhaps you and your gaming group can agree to play with indexes only if you hate the codices so much?

 NobodyXY wrote:
Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

Depends on how poorly they present their argument.

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

This is because people are making a disingenuous argument that they now need to spend over $1000 to play the game.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

If this is the sort of the that drives a player away then they're probably not someone i'd play with.

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

I'm a competitive player, but fluff *makes* the game. Without fluff you wouldn't have green army men and not 40K.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

The old GW would have taken 4 years to release everyone's book. The old GW wouldn't do a yearly point update outside of a codex either.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

I'm doubtful that will be the case. From reading the FAQ and based on an educated guess I won't want to buy the CSM book as a Thousand Sons player. They most certainly intend to split out the main legions with their other versions of units. Any other legion will be in CSM.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

Time will tell.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

You know the best way to keep a community healthy? A lack of negativity.