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General Hobbs wrote:


OK now...when will the leaks start showing the new rules???? I have an army on the table, I need to decide what color to slap on them.

The colour you like or the one of the chapter you like the fluff of.

it looks like it's confirmed that chapters will get rules with codexes thats good.

Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

You know, i almost bought 3 Indexes for all 6 of my armies though the day before pre-order I wondered how often I would play all 6 armies before new dexes dropped and decided to just buy just the chaos index.

Even while picking up my rulebook and index I had to resist the urge to buy xenos 1 and 2 just too have them even though i knew I was committed to 1k sons plus i all ready had the pdfs.

I can understand if people feel ripped though it was foreseeable. If I knew was going to play 6 armies off the bat I might have bought 3 Indexes.

Overall I think indexes were great to get folks going day 1 and I am happy with an accelerated schedule for new dexes.

I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. If each codex came with a free back rub, half the playerbase would complain it didn't come with a free tummy rub instead.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

No. No. You're definitely right. Your one anecdote supersedes the last several years of release history.

What was the last time we had your example then?

You claim to have several years of release history to go on, it should be fairly easy to go with. I've genuinely been trying to find something and I can't beyond the Stormcast stuff from the initial AoS launch. We didn't have the Dracoth stuff at launch, it got split off into the "Extremis" book and then was later rolled in when they did the new version of the book...but AoS has gone through several different types of army books at this juncture.

Also, feel free to ignore my commentary. Nobody made you arbiter of this discussion.

To make my point a little clearer, since it's obviously missing the mark here, models released within a month of a new Codex will probably have rules in the Codex. Models released more than a month after a new Codex probably won't. You'll either have to get your rules from multiple sources (Index, Codex and box rules) OR you'll get your rules from a single source and never get new models (at least until the next version of the Codex comes out).

You're moving goalposts again. Your claim after me pointing out that it says the Index was that they are "heavily implying" that the rules for the Dreadnought won't be in the Codex and that Space Marines players will need an Index, a Codex, and whatever rules come with new models.
Here's the quote again from the Warhammer Community FAQ:

Warhammer Community FAQ wrote:If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

They're talking about Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves. Nowhere does it say anything about Space Marines players needing the Index, the Codex and rules from the boxes to run an army without some weird caveats.

Those caveats?

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

So. A limited run model, models that might end up getting their own mini-dex rather than being rolled into the book, and a variant on the Land Raider that was sold for awhile but isn't anymore.

Did you really expect them to be in the Codex?

It would be great if all of an army's unit rules and army wide rules came from one source. I don't think it'll ever happen.

What other books do I need to run Kharadron Overlords? Stormcast Eternals? Blades of Khorne? Disciples of Tzeentch?

When the DG dex.hits we will see if it includes data sheets for any models that can take the Death Guard keyword.

Just like I hope a 1k Sons Dex has data sheets for helbrutes, drakes etc... Anything that can take the 1000 sons key word.

 EnTyme wrote:

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. .

Or the ability of others to trivialise complaints they disagree with.

These discussions would go considerably more smoothly if people could accept that different opinions to their own aren't inherently meritless.

 EnTyme wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. If each codex came with a free back rub, half the playerbase would complain it didn't come with a free tummy rub instead.

Well sure. The tummy rub is a better value to most gamers.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

Nor am I, but probably for a different reason... It makes sense that they would work through an index at a time, rather than having three books out there that all have partially obsolete content.

Do we really need different books for all the "different" marines?
I don't even want different books for different daemons, unless they go one book for each god (mortal and daemon), like in AoS.

Requizen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I sincerely hope everyone who expresses views like this ends up having to pinch pennies one day and that there's somebody there waiting for the moment they express some minor frustration about the price of something to smugly interject that they should be off doing some plebby hobby for plebs like collecting cardboard boxes or something fnar fnar.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Who do we need a separate book for Imperial Guard, Orks, and Eldar. They are all just high model count armies with a 5+ armor save? The reality is that they are different armies, use different models, have different rules, and frequently play very differently from one another. And the power armor varieties are no exception to this.

If I was Games Workshop, I would do whatever I wanted because while GW is predictable so is the reaction from people playing it:

Make many different books: "I can't believe I have to buy all these books to play my armies, they should put them in one book! GW is forcing me to buy many books."
Make one Codex Power Armor book: "Why should I buy this giant book, I only play X army and don't need any of these other rules. GW is forcing me to buy a big expensive book instead of giving us smaller books so that I can only buy what I need."
Require a new Codex anytime new models are released: "GW is forcing me to buy a book to keep my army current!"
Include free rules for models released after a codex: "GW is forcing me to carry around pieces of paper!"

If you bought all 5 of the Index books, you are playing with at least 5 armies. I know discounters exist, but if you are playing with 5 armies, and are hoping to keep on playing with 5 armies, why are you complaining about paying $125 for the rules to play every single unit you currently own? You'd spend at least $200 to buy a single troop choice for 5 armies, and for almost half that price you get the rules for every model.

If you don't play every single color of power armor, you don't need to get every Codex [color] Power Armor. If you play an army that doesn't get a codex until next year, you got $25 fairly comprehensive rules for your army. I think GW is on the right track with what they are doing, but I'm playing Codex: Dark Green Power Armor unless it's Black Power Armor of Bone Colored Bulky Power Armor.

 d-usa wrote:
So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Actually, you probably could.

 DarkBlack wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


OK now...when will the leaks start showing the new rules???? I have an army on the table, I need to decide what color to slap on them.

The colour you like or the one of the chapter you like the fluff of.

FWIW, this is the primary reason I rather despise chapter rules.

 d-usa wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Who do we need a separate book for Imperial Guard, Orks, and Eldar. They are all just high model count armies with a 5+ armor save? The reality is that they are different armies, use different models, have different rules, and frequently play very differently from one another. And the power armor varieties are no exception to this.

If I was Games Workshop, I would do whatever I wanted because while GW is predictable so is the reaction from people playing it:

Make many different books: "I can't believe I have to buy all these books to play my armies, they should put them in one book! GW is forcing me to buy many books."
Make one Codex Power Armor book: "Why should I buy this giant book, I only play X army and don't need any of these other rules. GW is forcing me to buy a big expensive book instead of giving us smaller books so that I can only buy what I need."
Require a new Codex anytime new models are released: "GW is forcing me to buy a book to keep my army current!"
Include free rules for models released after a codex: "GW is forcing me to carry around pieces of paper!"

If you bought all 5 of the Index books, you are playing with at least 5 armies. I know discounters exist, but if you are playing with 5 armies, and are hoping to keep on playing with 5 armies, why are you complaining about paying $125 for the rules to play every single unit you currently own? You'd spend at least $200 to buy a single troop choice for 5 armies, and for almost half that price you get the rules for every model.

If you don't play every single color of power armor, you don't need to get every Codex [color] Power Armor. If you play an army that doesn't get a codex until next year, you got $25 fairly comprehensive rules for your army. I think GW is on the right track with what they are doing, but I'm playing Codex: Dark Green Power Armor unless it's Black Power Armor of Bone Colored Bulky Power Armor.

those first few sentences are so cringey. Like listening to someone whine about only being able to buy a 25ft yacht instead of a 35ft. Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I sincerely hope everyone who expresses views like this ends up having to pinch pennies one day and that there's somebody there waiting for the moment they express some minor frustration about the price of something to smugly interject that they should be off doing some plebby hobby for plebs like collecting cardboard boxes or something fnar fnar.

If I was at the point where a $40 book would break the bank, I wouldn't be playing Warhammer.

I would love to collect antique cars. I love roadsters and would like to have a garage with 50 of them that I could care for, maintain, and take out for drives. But you don't see me complaining about the price of cars. If someone can't live within their means, the price of luxury hobbies are not to blame.

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who are not blind.

Fixed that for you.

I have several Marine armies - am I so entitled that I think Marines should have priority over all others - nope.

Do I - like you apparently - feel that I should not only have one overarching Codex but mutiple codexes - and first and screw everyone else. Nope.

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

Not from FFG, no, but there's about a bajillion squadron builders and image libraries where everything is freely available that FFG make zero effort to control. Unlike GW.

I think you probably can get all the cards from FFG for free now, they're just scattered across every little news article they've ever published.

So, I just noticed this little gem.

You can expect to see around 10 new codexes before Christmas

That's a bit ambitious given how codexes were parceled ouet over years in previous editions.

 Breotan wrote:
So, I just noticed this little gem.

You can expect to see around 10 new codexes before Christmas

That's a bit ambitious given how codexes were parceled ouet over years in previous editions.

To be fair, a lot of the content is probably already written in the indices with just a few modifications

Dudeface wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

Well, looking at two things.

Looking at just the fact that there are some specific rules for these two units:

Iron Hands and Raven Guard both use the same book, they are both Codex Complaint.
Blood Angels can also chose from inferno pistols and hand flamers when picking equipment for the sergeants, and a heavy flamer option for the tactical squad. They cannot pick a Land Speeder Storm for their Scouts.



Looking at the fact that nobody is building an army of tactical and scout marines and nothing else:

Forces using different books are going to have different tactical and scout tactics because the rest of the army is completely different. A tactical squad that is supporting Deathwing or Ravenwing is going to be different than a tactical squad that is supporting a Death Company and both of those are going to have different layouts and tactics than a pure codex complaint army. Heck, in previous editions even armies in the plain Chaos Space Marine codex played differently with chapter tactics and that's without adding different units into the mix.

True, they can take the Power Armor Index, double the size, charge $100+ for it, and declare that if you play anything with power armor you have to pay that or not have rules. And people would bitch, rightly so. It would make as much sense as making you buy Codex Xenos 1 and the rules for different armies, just so you can play Necron of Codex Xenos 2 and rules for Tyranids just so you can play Orks. They are different armies, have different models, and different play styles. Arguing that every army is the same because they all wear Power Armor is as stupid as saying every army is the same because they don't wear Power Armor.

The legitimate complaint from the non power armor crowd is that power armor always gets the new stuff first. Space Marine is always first, then every other variant of power armor. I can get behind that complaint. Other armies should get their turn, and I have no problem agreeing that there should be some sort of good guy/bad guy/power armor/non power armor rotation. That complaint is 100% valid.

So if you want to argue that [color] Power Armor shouldn't get the first 5 books because they are the same army anyway, then I think you are completely wrong.
But if you want to argue that [color] Power Armor shouldn't get the first 5 books because there are a lot of armies that don't wear power armor that need a book as well, then I am not disagreeing with you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who are not blind.

Fixed that for you.

I have several Marine armies - am I so entitled that I think Marines should have priority over all others - nope.

Do I - like you apparently - feel that I should not only have one overarching Codex but mutiple codexes - and first and screw everyone else. Nope.

I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

Not from FFG, no, but there's about a bajillion squadron builders and image libraries where everything is freely available that FFG make zero effort to control. Unlike GW.

Does FFG require physical cards to play in FFG tournaments?

Will TS have separate book like DG? I don't think so but I hope not. That would mean waiting a year to play my army with GOOD PSYCIC POWERS. Rather than 4.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Actually, you probably could.

Not with Grey Knights at all, and you only could with CSM if you're doing solely Loyalist options. Your ignorance of those Codices is pretty staggering.