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It seems like such a messy way to do things. For space marines I guess it makes sense as they're likely to see several new kits a year, so having the codex update along with the range makes some sense. This doesn't make as much sense for the xenos side of things though.

If they are releasing all the codexes in a 12 month span, what comes after that? That is my fear here. I doubt they pick up a third game to fill the slots that would have been filled by semi-regular codex releases. So whats left?

I don't know I feel like the indexes were the time to take ALL the 40k rules for all factions and lay them out in a more beginner or casual friendly manner, then use them as a base to add new rules yearly or bi-annually but keep a similar index style product line.

So instead on Xenos: 2 you'd have Tau and necrons, Split off Eldar into their own book and Orks and Tyranids in one. Imperium gets a third book and Chaos gets a second. That frees up room for extra rules and doesn't multiply the product line by 3.

Instead of having upwards 20 rulebooks you'd have what 7 or 8 possibly?

If the codexes construction matched their intended use rather than being essentially the collectors edition without a cheaper option I'd having nothing bad to say.It's not a great way to build community or foster growth.

It's too bad they aren't breaking from this tradition. I'd happily buy a floppy 'just the rules' codex for 15USD for my GSC. Yearly. I won't be buying a 35-40USD hardback that sits on a shelf after a year though, that doesn't have enough value for me.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I hope you realize I wasn't joking

I think he was pointing out the absurdity of your position.

Reality often is absurd.

[MOD EDIT - Rule #1 - Alpharius]

Requizen wrote:
....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...

The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves.
The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.

It sadly isn't that absurd a position. Fantasy saw it in several ways, the abandonment of Bretonnians, the long update times for wood elves (largely a result of no idea what to do with them that wasn't done with the other two elf armies), the Matt Ward orc & goblin army book that was bad because he didn't particularly like orcs.

We saw the same thing for a fair few codexes too. The (in)famous 3e chaos codex with the ridiculous Iron Warriors rules because Pete Haines was an Iron Warriors player. Cruddace nids were a major departure from any nid 'dex before him.

Iron Mike wrote:

Requizen wrote:
....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...

The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves.
The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.

They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.

Iron Mike wrote:

Requizen wrote:
....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...

The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves.
The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.

Technically they are. or at least they are trying.

you just dont get to have it in a nice bound book.

just a bunch of loose pamphlets. (if anything they should of gone the non collectable card route though that also gets expensive if units get revised over and over)

Also please merciful god no formations no formations no formations.

Yeah, with the detachments we have already, there's no need for formations.

Agreed. I'm skipping yet another edition if formations ever gets reintroduced.

Do unique detachments specific to particular armies count as formations? We know those are coming. Presumably all they would do is offer more CP for using detachments tailored to certain armies. Or the detachments offer an easier time building fluffy lists, such as mechanicus getting a detachment that doesn't force us to take 2-3 magos to field a decent sized army.

Requizen wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Requizen wrote:
....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...

The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves.
The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.

They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.

Absolutely it's enjoyable, it is (in my opinion) the best part of the hobby... but it's still expensive.
What isn't enjoyable is being charged extra to know how to play with your hobby, for a game that you've already purchased the rulebook of.
The hobby can be very expensive (which is fine) but "Warhammer 40 000: The Game" should not be, at all.
Updates to rules (like Codexes) should be like patches to a video game. "Free DLC," if you will. You could purchase a hardback Codex for the fluff and art (or just as a nice handy tome of your model's in-game rules), but they should also be available on the GW site FOR FREE BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY BOUGHT THE GAME. AND YOU ALREADY BOUGHT, BUILT, PAINTED AND CREATED EVERYTHING REQUIRED FOR THE GAME.

I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.

What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


I know you said you aren't joking after posting this, but come on! GW management are only fans of money, that drives their decisions more than any other factor.

You're right. And that is precisely why armies which aren't Space Marines need people in the design studio who are passionate about them or else they get neglected. If there isn't anybody in the design studio who is passionate about your army, then there isn't anyone to pitch to the accountants and put forth why investing money into a risk like a huge reworking of a line which sells poorly is better than just releasing a new Space Marine kit which can be sold to probably over 50% of the customer base with basically no risk at all.

 Tokhuah wrote:
I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.

What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.

10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).

 Tokhuah wrote:
I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.

What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.

You can "use" it, but only as a display board. The rules are invalid.

I wouldn't mind them doing themed detachments for different armies. That could work.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
I agree about formation except for this: Until I get a Codex for Necrons I will not play vs another codex unless they let me use my most recent codex, just like the good old days of 5th and 6th when the Necrons had to slog through with the same codex, except this time with Decurion and Canoptek Harvest with multi-wound bugs getting Reanimation Protocols at +4.

What I am really pointing to is the idiocy of the GW release schedule.

You can "use" it, but only as a display board. The rules are invalid.

the differance betwen 5th vs 7th, and 7th vs 8th, is the rules are fundamentally diferant. whereas before it was just changes to the core rules and "your USRs are a bit differant"

I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<

I'm expecting minimal changes on stuff in the indexes, clarification of rules, changes of points (anything drasticly over or under pointed will be fixed)

Well, that's how nerfs come in sometimes. A big increase in points for something is a nerf.

Let's say right now a chaos LR is already pricey at 300 plus points (with its guns). And then they increased it even more so that its now 400 points with guns... That's a nerf. Especially when you consider that a Storm raven costs (which chaos doesn't have) also costs 300 over points is essentially a flying land raider with a higher transport capability and heavier armaments ... So, it has all the benefits and more for being a flyer and costs the same. Then an increase in the already expensive chaos LR in terms of points would be a nerf.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, that's how nerfs come in sometimes. A big increase in points for something is a nerf.

true but I can't think of any obvious cases of "needs points increase" for chaos. if anything I suspect they could stand to have a few things drop a point or two.

My feelings are definitely a mixture of being disappointed to see that it's again going to be a giant unbalanceable mess of codexes (when I hoped the game would be getting simpler), and satisfaction that I didn't buy any of the indexes. I definitely think it's reasonable for people to be unhappy that they bought a rulebook in good faith that was nearly immediately invalidated.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't mind them doing themed detachments for different armies. That could work.

The generic Detachments basically allow full freedom to make your army as you wan't. What form could take "themed" detachments?

Da Butcha wrote:
I'm utterly dismayed that they aren't putting stuff in the Codex that was in the Index. They've already said if you want rules for things like the Imperial Space Marine, Land Raider Ultra, or Legion of the Damned, you'll need to keep your Index. Those won't be in the Space Marine Codex.

Just thought I'd point out 2 things:
1. The Imperial Space Marine was the '30th Anniversary of Space Marines Existing' model and is no longer in production. Before 8th, the only way to get its rules was to buy the limited edition model.
2. The Terminus Ultra hasn't had an official kit available from GW in years, and only just got new rules in 8th for the first time in years. It hasn't had rules since Apocalypse War Zone: Damnos, and even then they were for Apocalypse only back in 6th edition. On top of that it was only part of a very specific Apocalypse Formation and couldn't be taken individually - the last time that happened was Apocalypse: Reloaded back in 5th Edition.

Those 2 not getting rules in the codex makes some sense at the very least, especially the Imperial Space Marine.


Legion of the Damned are a bit surprising given they've been in the Space Marine codex for years, even after they got their poor excuse for an individual, digital codex. Maybe they'll appear in an Imperial Agents style codex down the pipeline, or maybe not.

SilverAlien wrote:

10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).

...or abandon the codex model completely, and stick with the indexes to reduce the number of different books people need to buy to keep up with the rules.

...or release the rules online or with the models, and use the Codex the way Privateer have done, to provide expanded fluff for those who want it without actually requiring the book to play the army.

At the very least, if the indexes had been included with the rules or released online, people wouldn't be complaining as much about the codexes coming along and invalidating them.

 Galas wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't mind them doing themed detachments for different armies. That could work.

The generic Detachments basically allow full freedom to make your army as you wan't. What form could take "themed" detachments?

Basically formations. AoS does it in their Battletomes. Like Sylvaneth Wargroves. Take x amount of specific troops, x amount of specific HQs, etc., etc and you have access to special rules for that battalion. Many times they also have restrictions on other units. Makes the Wargroves (battalions) more fluffy. I assume that is what H.B.M.C. is getting at

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Just thought I'd point out 2 things:
1. The Imperial Space Marine was the '30th Anniversary of Space Marines Existing' model and is no longer in production. Before 8th, the only way to get its rules was to buy the limited edition model.
2. The Terminus Ultra hasn't had an official kit available from GW in years, and only just got new rules in 8th for the first time in years. It hasn't had rules since Apocalypse War Zone: Damnos, and even then they were for Apocalypse only back in 6th edition. On top of that it was only part of a very specific Apocalypse Formation and couldn't be taken individually - the last time that happened was Apocalypse: Reloaded back in 5th Edition.

Those 2 not getting rules in the codex makes some sense at the very least, especially the Imperial Space Marine.


Legion of the Damned are a bit surprising given they've been in the Space Marine codex for years, even after they got their poor excuse for an individual, digital codex. Maybe they'll appear in an Imperial Agents style codex down the pipeline, or maybe not.

It may make sense not to have them in the Codex, but then why put them in the Index either?The models aren't available, as you have said.

But does it make more sense to put them in a large, hardback book devoted to the faction, or a smaller paperback book which gives only the bare minimum rules and background necessary for the faction?

I'm totally fine with a Index Apocrypha book, which has rules for all sorts of out of print models (Oh, god, would that be amazing). I'm unhappy about, but not really stridently angry about simply dropping rules for OOP models. Speaking as an Ork player, who would really, really like to see rules for Kill Krushas and Battlefortresses and Grot Bombs, I'm really sorry not to see new rules for my old models, and really willing to pay for a nice book that includes rules for them.

But to have the only source for model rules be in a book which is designed to be superseded by another book which will render most, but not all of it, invalid? That's an annoying business model. Explain that one to a new player.

"I just bought the rulebook and the Space Marine Codex. What's this I read about the Legion of the Damned? Are those Space Marines?"

"They sure are! You can buy the models, but if you want to play them, their rules are in this Space Marine Index."

"Index? I already have the Space Marine Codex? Does this give me more detail, or background? Could I have bought it instead?"

"Nope. It's already obsoleted by the Codex. But if you want the rules for those guys, you have to buy it, too, despite all the other rules being replaced. By the way, it doesn't have much in the way of background, art, or story, as the focus of the Index is on rules for play."

"Rules which have already been replaced."

"Yup."

BrianDavion wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am excited for the CSM codex. I just hope they don't nerf anything we currently already have... >_<

I'm expecting minimal changes on stuff in the indexes, clarification of rules, changes of points (anything drasticly over or under pointed will be fixed)

I wouldn't think so. The CSM codex was probably sent to the printer months ago. There probably hasn't been much play testing between the time the indexes were set and this codex was. I doubt GW knew back then what the broken stuff was. They are only now getting an inkling. I doubt any codex in 2017 (or at least for a few months) will have point values fixed based upon what we know now.

As a quite new ork player myself I'm quite happy to get a codex full of fluff, great pictures and flavour rules, even if its in a year or so.

What I'm really affraid of is (apart for the period where not all codexes are out), if codexes are developped one at a time again where indexes where developped as a whole ( andI say if, because I can't say that's the case), is the return of utter misbalance between armies.

I mean, you can easily update an index which is nothing more than a practical(and relatively cheap) rule handbook and nothing else.

I feel codexes are a bit more than that. And I certainly don't want to patch it up by hand with a red pen (and several times) some monthes after its release. What I'm trying to say is that it may be too early. Maybe codexes should not be published at the dawn of an edition, but at its zenith, when you have enough feedback, but the edition is still thriving. But I realize it makes no sense on a commercial point.

Big moment coming up. Army specific "chapter tactics" psychic lores and strategems are all balance landmines given GW's history.