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 Cephalobeard wrote:
RIP Black Legion, just completely worse in every way.

Black Legion were bad from the get go in the new codex.

But, yes, DG won the Chapter/Legion Tactics lottery pretty handily.... even without Disgustingly Resilient (which itself is twice as good as Chapter Tactics from other chapters). And a lot of their other special rules bloat is rather good as well.
Unless their '9 new units' are really terrible and limited/lacking in options, most legions and chapters just aren't playing the same game.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

Look at our CT again. The "helbrute" bit isn't bolded meaning it refers to the unit not the keyword, so FW dreadnoughts still don't gain access to our CT until they explicitly FAQ that they do.

GW added a keyword just for helbrutes to allow easy reference, then decided not to use it either because they thought it didn't matter because their is only one helbrute unit or just to screw with FW.

Dammit.

You can take everything in the chaos Forge World FAQ per the FAQ ruling that says what you can and cannot take guys:
"You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard."

So that dread you want to take is in....

Voss wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
RIP Black Legion, just completely worse in every way.

Black Legion were bad from the get go in the new codex.

But, yes, DG won the Chapter/Legion Tactics lottery pretty handily.... even without Disgustingly Resilient (which itself is twice as good as Chapter Tactics from other chapters). And a lot of their other special rules bloat is rather good as well.
Unless their '9 new units' are really terrible and limited/lacking in options, most legions and chapters just aren't playing the same game.

I am sad... but don't forget Black legion has Abbadon. He is the only CSM hero other than Kharn who can give a reroll to hit aura. Plus he makes all CSM units within 12 inches immune to morale. Those two auras are not a small thing.

Anyway, back to DG. a MSU squad of 5 plague marines can take 3 plasma guns. Think MSU squads are the way to go? Have 5 squads of MSU plague marines radiating out from a Daemon prince who will give them rerolls on 1 (so they can risk overcharging). That's 30 plasma gun shots at 18 inch range.

 sfshilo wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
REALLY?! Holy crap. That is huge!

Look at our CT again. The "helbrute" bit isn't bolded meaning it refers to the unit not the keyword, so FW dreadnoughts still don't gain access to our CT until they explicitly FAQ that they do.

GW added a keyword just for helbrutes to allow easy reference, then decided not to use it either because they thought it didn't matter because their is only one helbrute unit or just to screw with FW.

Dammit.

You can take everything in the chaos Forge World FAQ per the FAQ ruling that says what you can and cannot take guys:
"You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard."

So that dread you want to take is in....

Yeah, but it still wouldn't be affected by the Chapter Tactic, because it targets Helbrute units and not <Helbrute>.

So wait the new DG codex is good now? But I thought it was terrible! What good is jumping to conclusions weeks before hand if they turn out to be complete bs!?

I don't understand people acting shocked/angry at DG Codex looking strong. Right now they are horrible. Why wouldn't they get a lot stronger?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I don't understand people acting shocked/angry at DG Codex looking strong. Right now they are horrible. Why wouldn't they get a lot stronger?

I think people still think GW still has some kinda agenda (or at least specific uninterested writers) trying to keep certain factions down.

Its pretty obvious that previous editions did but this time around they seem to be doing an ok job overall. there are obvious problems but until we see what happens with IG and assassins we wont know.

also FW is borking all the things. (they seem to ether not give a damn or was REALLY caught off guard with the edition change some how)

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So wait the new DG codex is good now? But I thought it was terrible! What good is jumping to conclusions weeks before hand if they turn out to be complete bs!?

We still aren't going to be competitive at a high level no, and will likely struggle even below that until our points are adjusted in (hopefully) this year's chapter approved.

Even then I've yet to see anything strictly better than what normal CSM has. There might be a few things but look at the sort of things people are talking about, footslogging 20 man poxwalker and PM units upfield, being able to used mixed helbrutes better, maybe getting a nice boost on FW helbrutes.

Being excited over cool rules and units works alongside realizing said units are going to be overcosted initially and our tactics aren't ones that work well in the current edition.

Intriguing releases thus far hoping for a multi part plastic Death Guard kit perhaps a "Start Collecting" boxset although I suppose Know No Fear fills that void...

Started with Dark Imperium so got the Full Kabosh so to say..

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I don't understand people acting shocked/angry at DG Codex looking strong. Right now they are horrible. Why wouldn't they get a lot stronger?

What thread have you been reading through? The last 10 pages were people complaining about how Mortarion is bad, now people are saying that DG can be quite good. No one has been angry about DG being strong.

It is a bit weird people going "they suck, they suck"
*Tuesday's Article* "Yeah, sucks"
*Thursday's Article* "So good! Suck it Black Legion!"

It all just comes down to the points.
Problem for Death Guard right now its you pay around 50% more for - to be fair - a big boost vs S3/4 shooting. But you get no damage boost at all, in a game all about alpha striking stuff. So its not surprising they are not doing badly.

Based on the hints you would imagine the damage output will go up with this release but whether its enough remains to be seen.

The Plagueburst Crawler looks a bit "Iffy" going to have to kitbash it me thinks with a Rhino..

 Desubot wrote:
I think people still think GW still has some kinda agenda (or at least specific uninterested writers) trying to keep certain factions down.

No it is more that they actually have clear idea how they are balancing the game this time, which is good, but also means flaws in the design can be extremely obvious.

The flaw that hurts DG is that invidual units/models pay quite a bit for increases in durability, compared to the price of simply taking more bodies. This is compensated by larger units having issues with morale or burning through slots faster for non troop units. However, because many armies which can easily field such units also have synergy bonuses allowing them to minimize the issues with high unit count, that ends up not mattering as often as it should. The fact such synergy bonuses are also really cheap for what they offer, another common thread this edition where HQ buffs are often cheap to encourage synergistic play, means our army ends up both not being very durable for their cost, but also is more vulnerable to morale. Certain units, like poxwalkers, are better as morale rules like fearless are still not paying as much for fearless as a unit like DG is for their improved toughness, but the fact it's baked in rather than coming from synergy still means we are paying more than other armies for the same effect, because of how it's delivered.

This is actually something you can track across multiple armies and units, and while it has been addressed to a degree it's still an issue, one likely to effect our army pretty dramatically.

Again, this isn't that bad. The mere fact they have a (mostly) consistent balance strategy and have begun addressing problems as they are made obvious helps a lot, and the problem should continue to get better when our codices points are eventually updated.

Edit: I suppose that's also why I was so down on morty, synergy bonuses, strong ones, are what could make our army worth using. Morty barely even managed synergy beyond what a lot of generic HQs can do, which was a let down.

I hope Silence has 2 modes:
1. A mode similar to Magnus' current weapon
2. S6, AP0, D1. Every attack does 5 hits(since they said he's the best horde clearer) 30 attacks seems good to me

I am willing to bet Silence does 3 or d6 damage and the damage isn't lost, just like how mortal wounds work. The new plague flails operate exactly like that. If Mortarion can bleed over damage, that is a simple mechanic and a great way to kill hordes.

SilverAlien wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So wait the new DG codex is good now? But I thought it was terrible! What good is jumping to conclusions weeks before hand if they turn out to be complete bs!?

We still aren't going to be competitive at a high level no, and will likely struggle even below that until our points are adjusted in (hopefully) this year's chapter approved.

Even then I've yet to see anything strictly better than what normal CSM has. There might be a few things but look at the sort of things people are talking about, footslogging 20 man poxwalker and PM units upfield, being able to used mixed helbrutes better, maybe getting a nice boost on FW helbrutes.

Being excited over cool rules and units works alongside realizing said units are going to be overcosted initially and our tactics aren't ones that work well in the current edition.

Why you assume that DG point's aren't gonna be adjusted in their own Codex?

I think silence is gonna have some "Has X attacks. X= The number of enemy models at a 2" distance from Mortarion"

 Galas wrote:
Why you assume that DG point's aren't gonna be adjusted in their own Codex?

I think silence is gonna have some "Has X attacks. X= The number of enemy models at a 2" distance from Mortarion"

They will be adjusted. To the degree PM cost was adjusted. Which went from "nonsensically priced" to "slightly more expensive than is justified". The second pass we get with chapter approved should square things away is the hope.

Crunching the numbers, with fairly expensive blight launchers on already expensive plague marines, it's tough to figure out a good list (especially with Mortarion's power level cost estimate). I am really wondering what paying more points to field the Tallyman and/or apothecary can do to make a plague marine heavy army more worthwhile.

There were a small few comments on the Facebook post asking if Lords and Sorcs have DR, but those seem to have all been deleted. GW trying to cover there tracks I'd presume, very bad sign.

That's it all 33!!!
I got them all on first guessing ^^

Morty
Typhus
Plague Caster
Lord of Contagion
Bell guy
Apothecary
Guy with mask and barrel full of pus in the back
Possibly guy with needle gun and pouches stringed on spikes in the back
Plague Marine Standard Bearer
DeathShroud termies
Death Guard termies
Plague Marines
Foetid Drones
PoxWalkers
Plague Crawler(tank)

Plaguebearers
Nurglins
Plague Drones


Daemon Prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour

Chaos Lord on Palanquin of Nurgle

Sorcerer
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Sorcerer in Palanquin of Nurgle

Chaos Cultists
Possessed
Helbrute

Chaos Rhino
Chaos Spawn
Defiler
Chaos Predator
Chaos Land Raider

So, Deathshroud Terminators in a separate 3-model box?

Warhams-77 wrote:
So, Deathshroud Terminators in a separate 3-model box?

idk 100% but do hope so

 aracersss wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
So, Deathshroud Terminators in a separate 3-model box?

idk 100% but do hope so

Get ready for the meganob/cent treatment. :(

I really hope the Deathshrouds come in a standard 5-man box with the other termie.

I really, really don't wanna pay Meganobz prices (money) for what will probably one of our star units.

SilverAlien wrote:
The flaw that hurts DG is that invidual units/models pay quite a bit for increases in durability, compared to the price of simply taking more bodies. This is compensated by larger units having issues with morale or burning through slots faster for non troop units. However, because many armies which can easily field such units also have synergy bonuses allowing them to minimize the issues with high unit count, that ends up not mattering as often as it should. The fact such synergy bonuses are also really cheap for what they offer, another common thread this edition where HQ buffs are often cheap to encourage synergistic play, means our army ends up both not being very durable for their cost, but also is more vulnerable to morale. Certain units, like poxwalkers, are better as morale rules like fearless are still not paying as much for fearless as a unit like DG is for their improved toughness, but the fact it's baked in rather than coming from synergy still means we are paying more than other armies for the same effect, because of how it's delivered.

This is actually something you can track across multiple armies and units, and while it has been addressed to a degree it's still an issue, one likely to effect our army pretty dramatically.

That's a truly excellent analysis.

One of my first thoughts when reading about the leaks for DG was "wow, that sounds nice against other elite armies, but against hordes I dunno... ".
The problem is that poxwalkers are an excellent troop, but it's really the other units which supposedly have a real impact. And one can expect everything but poxwalkers to be quite pricey.
I dunno, we'll have to see the whole thing.

Another thing that bugs me is that havocs are apprently gone. My DG army was mostly typhus+zombies+plague marines w boltguns+havocs (and a couple of extra things like a helbrute).
I dunno how I feel about having to buy Mortarion+ new tanks + new plague marines. It seems that I'd have to buy a lot of new stuff to make my army even remotely competitive (it was never really).

I think for Death Guard to really be worth playing you need to have Poxwalkers cost a point less, you need some really good stratagems that have not yet been revealed, and you need some good synergy buffs and auras that have not been revealed yet. I'm hoping.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 aracersss wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
So, Deathshroud Terminators in a separate 3-model box?

idk 100% but do hope so

Get ready for the meganob/cent treatment. :(

I think Centurion is a very big jump... but Meganobz? Thats a real possibility.



3 for 49€. I'll much prefer the Deathwing 5 for 45€ but... I'm preparing myself for dissapointment in that case.

The funny thing is that if they are 3 for 49€ like Meganobz, it will be cheaper to buy the Forgeworld ones, 5 for 49 Pounds

I would not be surprised in the least. We already have seen 3-4 different Melee options that could be on terminators (similar to MANz) is enough for them to slap the price tag on.

Damn, the absence of havocs is really bumming me out. I've got two units I painted 6 months ago. I thought the days when GW made you shelve some miniatures were over for some reason...

Talking of which... How many heavy weapons can actually be used with the trait? It seems this is only useful for Helbrutes and -possibly- terminators (assuming the Death shroud isn't so good that they make the terminators redundant).
Firing boltguns and plasmaguns at 18" is nice, just as firing blight launchers after advancing is... But the best way to make plague marines cost-effective seems to kit them out for assaulting... In which case the rhino still remains a better option than footlsogging. Even a 5-man squad with plasma weapons will enjoy the protection of a rhino... Considering a plague marine is 19ppm, I'm not sure I'd go for the footslogging option...
Point is, the trait seems sweet... Until you realize it's not easy to use it on the units we get.

Interesting - so it seems the live stream may actually have been dealing with the new rules back when the edition came out.