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I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.

stewe128 wrote:
MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????

It's not a 7+

It's precisely 7. Nurgle's number. An 8 gets you nothing. MWG pretty much said they initially made the same mistake.

stewe128 wrote:
MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????

Is it a 7+ in a 2d6, or a EXACT 7 in a 2d6? I think is a exact 7. Still, that+ the rerrol to meele hits like the Dark Apostle is very usefull for his point cost.

EDIT:

Dudeface wrote:
I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.

If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.

Has anyone seen how much poxwalkers are

Pseudomonas wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.

If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.

This.

If I have the option to give my Plaguecaster a Force Sword then I couldn't give a rat's arse. If it's a fixed build then I've got sword Sorcerers who just won't fit in with the rest of my T5, FNP power armoured horde.

Same with Lords.

pittmanar wrote:
Has anyone seen how much poxwalkers are

6ppm

Pseudomonas wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I understand the upset over the lords and sorcerors, in my eyes since alternative units exist for these already via lord of contagion etc. They either should have left the generic version out or just spent 5-10 mins giving it a new name and a slight tweak to make it more thematic.

If Lords of Contagion and whatever the sorcerer is called are sufficiently customisable then there isn't really an issue.

Oh yeah, Lords of Contagion have tons of options.

You can have a Plaguereaper or a Manreaper. Revel in the limitless possibilities

 Galas wrote:

I disagree here. Is the same as saying what makes Dark Angels Tacticals different from the Codex: Space Marines ones? Nothing, they are the same unit, barring chapter tactics. Theres no problem with that.

The difference here is that there has never really been a precedent for Dark Angel tacticals to be statistically different from baseline Codex SM tacticals.

There HAS been such a precedent from 2nd edition for Nurgle marked units to be statistically different, particularly with Death Guard.

In 2nd ed the MoN was a straight toughness boost.

In 3rd ed - again, a straight toughness boost. The IA article went a little further, added restrictions, altered some units to Plague Units and gave True-Grit about.

In 3.5 we got a mini-list where, again MoN gave a straight toughness boost. It also restricted weapon options and granted fearless.

In late 4th we got a horrible book but again, MoN granted the toughness boost.

In 6th....are you seeing the pattern?

And in Traitor Legions in 7th we got proper Plague Units back again.

And now we've got....

A bunch of generic units that don't really have anything more than a few keywords to indicate that their part of a completely different army. Furthermore, they don't really benefit in the slightest from half the army's rules or its trait. Perhaps not so bad if you're a new player as you can happily avoid the trap and just build a proper plague army with massed T5 and DR and plague weapons...

But for existing players? It's pretty terrible. The World Eaters trait is a lot more close to theme in the CSM book and at least creates a semblance of WE armies - a lot more than the sad mess we got here.

It's really sad when figurehead characters and elite units (Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed) are far more fragile than the baseline units in the army - such things are meant to be the peak of the army they are part of...not weaker than it.

SilverAlien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How are these units (Chaos Lord, Possessed, Helbrute, etc.) Death Guard units? They're just regular units. What are regular units doing in a Death Guard army? Why is their dedication to Nurgle not reflected in any way, shape or form? Being a Death Guard Chaos Lord used to mean something. Even if it was something as simple as T5/DR as standard for 1 extra PL or some extra points on top of whatever the cost in the Chaos 'Dex is - that'd be enough.

But right now Death Guard Possessed are just Possessed with the DG Keyword. Same for the Lord, Sorcerer, Helbrute, Cultists - you name it. Beyond that there's literally nothing about them that makes them "Nurgle".

What's the point?

You mean what makes them DG besides the CT, warlord traits, psychic abilities, stratagems, and possibly wargear for the independent character

This idea it doesn't fit in the army if it doesn't have toughness 5 and DR bothers me. Being dedicated to nurgle no longer means inherently tougher, I know that still bothers people but that's not the norm now.

Seriously, does it really beggar belief their might have been some variance in how nurgle effected the chapter as a whole? I think it fits, those that weren't consumed by plague either proved their worth and ascended to a higher rank, were consumed by demons and turned into, or died. There, narrative forged. On and helbrute she weren't effected the same way due to their nature.

Complaining about the cultists is just petty, why would cultists have the same traits as everyone else? Even benefitting from CT is something we kinda handwave.

You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.

I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.

don't you think is strange too that just a few BA get black rage; or a few DA units only get jinks or unforgiven? ... the fact you expect every single unit out of a legion codex will get the same treatment as a few, makes me question what the heck did everyone expect from the beginning

 aracersss wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.

don't you think is strange too that just a few BA get black rage; or a few DA units only get jinks or unforgiven? ... the fact you expect every single unit out of a legion codex will get the same treatment as a few, makes me question what the heck did everyone expect from the beginning

Ah, you mean that the only units that get Black Rage were the only units that actually in background are suffering from it?

Or the only units that Jink or have Unforgiven are the only units that actually have them?

If you want to dig for an equivalent you're going to have to try a lot harder than sticking out specialist elite units in specific armies that are above and beyond the core baseline troops in the army...

As your counter argument for an army where we now have HQs and specialist elite units (Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed) that are now WEAKER than core baseline troops.

Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.

A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.

I can see your point and I agree, they seem like generic units put there just to fill space. But to be honest, the rest of the Codex is just so lovely and those untis are a small percentage that... I can forgive them for this

In fact, the whole weaker than the base troop is exactly the sort of gak that put me off the 6th ed Codex entirely.

At least this time round we're getting Plague Terminators so I can at least be happy that my horrendously expensive elite unit isn't weaker and more prone to running away than my baseline troop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

I can see your point and I agree, they seem like generic units put there just to fill space. But to be honest, the rest of the Codex is just so lovely and those untis are a small percentage that... I can forgive them for this

I can't.

Sure, the units are a small percentage. But Lords and Sorcerers are kind of important characters - and unless you happened to conveniently build your Sorcerers with a Force Staff and your Lords in Terminator Armour with a double handed axe or scythe....you're pretty much getting the short end of the stick here.

It's almost as much a thematic mess as the old 4th-5th ed book was where if a unit dropped its Icon it somehow lost its mark and could go skipping off to worship another Chaos God.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.

don't you believe the lord of contagion is that equivalent ... or the plaguecaster is for the sorcerer? not everything has to be busted to be the defacto of every legion army ... specially when they are specific units that cover that role

 aracersss wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.

don't you believe the lord of contagion is that equivalent ... or the plaguecaster is for the sorcerer? not everything has to be busted to be the defacto of every legion army ... specially when they are specific units that cover that role

And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....

Kept the generic ones.
Kept the specialist ones.

As I have already said, unless you have conveniently build your Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with a double handed axe or scythe, or conveniently gave your Sorcerer a force staff....you're pretty much out of luck.

Would have been fairly easy for the LoC to get the reroll aura since the Warlord Traits incorporate the Mortal Wound bubble now - but I suspect we're going to see some pretty terrible redundancy there.

And your busted comment? I laugh. So you are trying to tell me that not everything in a Legion army that is KNOWN FOR ITS RESILIENCE and has pretty much in all incarnations been the high toughness, good armour, high resilience, small numbers army should have high toughness or resilience?

Is that what you are saying?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.

I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?

No I can honestly say it doesn't bother me.

Let's lay out the options we now have: we have a budget plain chaos lord to act as a buffing unit. A chaos lord on a palanquin to act as a slightly tougher buffing unit, fits better with the rest of the army's statline for those who are bothered. Then a daemon prince for an expensive but tough HQ that can both buff and fight well. Finally, we have a lord of contagion, for those who don't care about winning and just want to use the new models or have a "real" deathguard lord.

Over reliance on "unique" units could mean we have no cheap HQ options and even no decent HQs that can actually make the army work well. I mean, why shouldn't all our HQs have both the reroll aura and the mortal wound aura, toughness 5, DR, and a maybe even a wound more than normal to match the LoC? It's the most fluffy, even if it's horrific from anyone wanting to build a decent list. Same with whoever thought we should only have LoC, that's literally being upset they didn't arbitrarily weaken our army.

Balancing fluff with practicality is important, that's why marines are toned down on tabletop compared to how they are in fluff. Currently we have a good balance, plenty of fluffier options for those who care (chaos lord mounted on nurgling, daemon prince, or LoC).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.

A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.

Maybe this will start a trend where HQs and officers aren't chosen for their raw combat skill in defiance of logic and practically.

That's actually wonderful. We have an HQ that's look it was chosen for actual tactical acumen rather than how good he was in a fight. We have the first HQ in warhammer that makes even a little sense, that's kinda cool actually:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....

Does the thought of having a decent army scare you or something? Why would I want to pay for those useless auras and generally unneeded defensive buffs on my cheap buffing HQs?

Wonderwolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
MWG I love don't get me wrong, but to say a Tallyman who costs 67pts and you can get CP's reimbursed on a 7+ every time you use them isn't competitive? HEEEELLLLLOOOOO??????

It's not a 7+

It's precisely 7. Nurgle's number. An 8 gets you nothing. MWG pretty much said they initially made the same mistake.

Yep. It's a 1 in 6 (or 16.67%) chance to have your CPs refunded.

If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes. Otherwise, suck it up and realize it isn't as sweet as you hope ... thinking gw will give monopose models more weapon option is a thing of the past

 aracersss wrote:
If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes. Otherwise, suck it up and realize it isn't as sweet as you hope ... thinking gw will give monopose models more weapon option is a thing of the past

And we resort to the insults already. Cute.

How about this. I block your sorry trolling self and have to see your pointless input no longer. Have a nice day.

Go bleat for Sisters somewhere.

insulting are you serious? you are the one mocking people 'cause they believe not everything in a codex should have every single rule that makes an army ... you blatant sarcasm is what originates these pointless debates ... low move

T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

 aracersss wrote:
If you believe every generic unit should be the same high toughness and resilience 'cause hurr durr DG, then yes.

What is the name of the codex again? Exactly.

Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.

Not reducing poxwalkers from 6 ppm to 5 ppm is mind boggling. I have to hope that they increase the cost of conscripts, ork boyz, and storm boyz to put things more into line. Also disappointed with the tallyman and apothecary. The grenade guy is cool. Wish we had more unique stratagems.

That being said, Mortarion is absolutely amazing. I just did a test ITC game with him. There are some incredible combos you can do, especially if you bring in Nurgle Daemon or CSM allies for other psychic powers. Wonder how long it will take people to figure out the best combo...it was super sexy in my test game.

 Virules wrote:
Not reducing poxwalkers from 6 ppm to 5 ppm is mind boggling. I have to hope that they increase the cost of conscripts, ork boyz, and storm boyz to put things more into line. Also disappointed with the tallyman and apothecary. The grenade guy is cool. Wish we had more unique stratagems.

That being said, Mortarion is absolutely amazing. I just did a test ITC game with him. There are some incredible combos you can do, especially if you bring in Nurgle Daemon or CSM allies for other psychic powers. Wonder how long it will take people to figure out the best combo...it was super sexy in my test game.

Eh, Typhus didn't get a points increase so I'd say it balances out since if you're running any great numbers of 'em he'll be an auto-include.

SilverAlien wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't think that it's mildly strange that all the Marines don't get Disgustingly Resilient and t5? They're all in the Death Guard. They're not just Renegades.

I agree with you on Cultists and Helbrutes not needing Disgustingly Resilient (Helbrutes getting the whole range weapon bonus is fitting enough for a Chapter Tactic equivalent), but I'd rather a price increase for Lords, Sorcerers, and Possessed out of principle and they get that benefit. I want some consistency ya know?

No I can honestly say it doesn't bother me.

Let's lay out the options we now have: we have a budget plain chaos lord to act as a buffing unit. A chaos lord on a palanquin to act as a slightly tougher buffing unit, fits better with the rest of the army's statline for those who are bothered. Then a daemon prince for an expensive but tough HQ that can both buff and fight well. Finally, we have a lord of contagion, for those who don't care about winning and just want to use the new models or have a "real" deathguard lord.

Over reliance on "unique" units could mean we have no cheap HQ options and even no decent HQs that can actually make the army work well. I mean, why shouldn't all our HQs have both the reroll aura and the mortal wound aura, toughness 5, DR, and a maybe even a wound more than normal to match the LoC? It's the most fluffy, even if it's horrific from anyone wanting to build a decent list. Same with whoever thought we should only have LoC, that's literally being upset they didn't arbitrarily weaken our army.

Balancing fluff with practicality is important, that's why marines are toned down on tabletop compared to how they are in fluff. Currently we have a good balance, plenty of fluffier options for those who care (chaos lord mounted on nurgling, daemon prince, or LoC).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Those sorts of things are supposed to be exemplars. They're supposed to be superior to the core baseline troop. Not weaker than them.

A Chaos Lord is supposed to be a Plague Marine PLUS. Not weaker and less resilient.

Maybe this will start a trend where HQs and officers aren't chosen for their raw combat skill in defiance of logic and practically.

That's actually wonderful. We have an HQ that's look it was chosen for actual tactical acumen rather than how good he was in a fight. We have the first HQ in warhammer that makes even a little sense, that's kinda cool actually:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
And yet rather than combine the two generic roles into the LoC and Plaguecaster and giving those unit types options (Power Armour for the LoC, different weapon options for both) they instead....

Does the thought of having a decent army scare you or something? Why would I want to pay for those useless auras and generally unneeded defensive buffs on my cheap buffing HQs?

You're literally denying fluff.
The Lord of Contagion and Chaos Lord should have different abilities, but they should BOTH have T5 and Disgustingly Resilient. This isn't hard to figure out. This is Death Guard HQ, not generic Nurgle HQ. This is the Legion that has utterly dedicated themselves to Nurgle, not just received a couple of buffs. This is about consistency and completionism. This isn't whether the HQ is chosen because they're good in a fight or not!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.

You add 10-15 points just like with the last codex. It isn't particularly hard to figure out ya know.

Does anybody know what the stats are on the heavy blight launcher?

I admit I am somewhat disappointed the Warlord Traits seem to be more of the same, even though they are in keeping with Nurgle's theme of toughness and enduring. Of the 6, a whole 4 basically revolve around various means of damage mitigation, and another is basically another plague aura.

I was hoping for something perhaps emphasizing Nurgle in his aspect of Decay of all things, not just flesh. I note for example the Pallid Hand are infected with something called the Ferric Blight which is an infection that corrodes metal. Something like a Warlord Trait specifically affecting vehicles, like the Warpsmith's ability, might have been nice, and shows how Nurgle is also opposed to the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Tau with all their attempts to resist entropy by building shiny machines and constructs.

Has anyone got a google docs or imgur page up yet with some screen shots yet so we don't have to keep looking back through the video?

Photos and links to photos are in the first post. www.miniwars.eu and www.natfka.blogspot.com have collected pics, too

Rules screenshots https://www.lavozdehorus.com/tag/guardia-de-la-muerte/

This post in particular https://www.lavozdehorus.com/los-poderes-estratagemas-rasgos-reliquias-faltaban-la-guardia-la-muerte/