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Problem with step up: It solves a problem and creates another.

Point costs have to be totally thrown over and a completely new balancing hast to be set up.

@ Tony: As auticus states correctly, cavalry dominated 6th and 7th. The most successful tournament armies were including heavy cav. with excellent armor save, a fast hard hitter to dominate the game. At least in Germany. At an European level definitively too. It is fact. Not nonsense. I think by meta misinterpretation you mean that the ruleset is based on personal game experience, leading to a false interpretation that something is "over the top" and should therefore be limited (for obviously wrong reasons). CE was built up on the experience of tournament play in the heyday of 7th.
I am not for so long around here in Dakka. Can you post a link to your calculations, so we can discuss it? I am interested, although Math Hammer is not my favorite hobby,
In the end, the game is more than "6 attacks WS 4 S5 plus 5 WS 3 S3 against WS 3 T3 AS 5 equals 4 dead Spearmen, Unit Strength, Ranks plus Standard equals 5, so Spearmen are better than Heavy Cav.".
It's also a question of threat range, and possbilities to get into favorable positions, of possibility to gain a Net WIN of point costs out of the deployment of the unit. It is also a question how "forgiving" a unit is to a bad movement decision. Units with a high movement rate are fovorable there. Heavy Cav excels in all of these points, and therefore was problematic.
CE solves this by reducing the radius of the unit. No more, no less.
In many armies, you can choose cavalry with a 3+ armor save or less, so you still have the abovementioned advantages, and can still march. But a 3+ save ist only worth half of a 2+ or even a 1+, so it is possible for your opponent to damage the unit severely.

Ok here is another:

TOMB KINGS:

Tomb King + Cursed Blades + Urgency + Execution + Gw + Amulet of Pha-sta = 340 pts

30 Tomb Guard + Full Command + Mirage Standard = 460 pts
3 Carrion = 75 pts

2 Khemrian Warsphinx = 600 pts
1 Necrosphinx = 325 pts
1 Necrolith Colossus = 200 pts

= 2000 pts

Possibe swap is Carrions for Necrotect.



NORSE:

Konnugr + Warhorse + Shield + Ice Blade + Frost Pendant + Werewolf Hide = 205 pts
Battle Standard + Warhorse + Polar Pelt + Mead of Damnation = 125 pts
Godi + Death Frenzy + Frost Blades + The Beast Cowers + Dispel Scroll = 190 pts
= 520 pts

3x30 Axemen = 480 pts
40 Spearmen + Full Command + Frost Fjord Standard = 330 pts
2x40 Bondsmen + Spears = 220 pts

1 War Mammoth = 250 pts
1 Frost Giant = 200 pts

= 2000 pts



BEASTS OF CHAOS:

Great Bray Shaman + Shroud of Darkness + Dark Fury + Doom and Darkness + Word of Pain + Rune of the True Beast + Staff of Darkoth = 275 pts
Battle Standard + Crimson Armor of Dargan + Amulet of Chaos = 140 pts

30 Bestigor + Full Command + War banner = 375 pts
40 Ungor + Spear + Standard + Musician = 160 pts
40 Ungor + Spear + Standard = 155 pts
2x25 Ungor = 160 pts

8 Minotaurs + Gw = 325 pts
7 Minotaurs + Gw = 290 pts

1 Razorgor = 60 pts
5 Harpy = 60 pts

= 2000 pts

This list would be super weak against the list with Ethereal spam.



THE EMPIRE:

This is the core build i would go as Empire gunline but not sure about the character setup though. Empire characters seem quite feeble, and the Runefang sure is costly with only 3 attacks.

Master Engineer + Granade Launching Blunderbuss = 50 pts

30 Halberdier = 140 pts
10 Crossbowmen = 80 pts

2x25 Greatswords = 440 pts

3x10 Outriders = 690 pts

Mortar = 75 pts
Cannon = 100 pts
Volley Gun = 125 pts
Halfling Hot Pot = 50 pts

Lots of outriders though and i doubt, that any other army manages a gunline this dangerous.



LIZARDMEN:

Not sure how the "Drop Rocks" ability works, but it's possible to manage a quite irritating nuisance list around these units. 2x12 Terradons for example, possible deleting almost any elite infantry block in the game with expection of Ironbreakers.


SKAVEN:

Seems plenty strong when taking lots of Clanrats and different weapon teams + Jezzails & Poison Wind Globadiers against targets with high Toughness value. Probably wielding more than 300 rats with them.



On side note, here are some probable spelling corrections in the army lists that i have found:

Skaven: Cautious Shield says "By not attacking in this combat" -> Probably means that "in this combat round"

Norse: Athem of Mockery is probably meant to be "Anthem"

Norse: "Body Guard" is probably typed "Bodyguard"

High Elf: Nagarythe Hatred: This is probably meant for Dark elf instead.

Dow: In Halfling Ranger entry there is strange "je" before +7p. (Is that French ?)

Empire: Banner of Steel from White Wolves is not explained what it does ?



Need clarification on this: In Drop Rocks -> What is meant by "hit like template weapons" ?

Tried to check this from the rules but did not finde any general references to this.

Not bad haha,
You exploit the fact that the multiplier for tomb king large targets is only for the single entries, not a group like monsters for e.g. beastmen.

The Tomb guard and the tomb king are a point "bunker". Hard to get for the opponent.

Downside of the army: Mostly slow moving large targets. Enemies with high strength ranged attacks are a problem. You prabably will have trouble getting your spells through when you need them, as the opponent will always save his dice to dispel your movement spell. Probably not going into close combat with your tomb king block at all. It is easy to avoid.

Yes, the purpose is to find things to exploit for purposes of balancing the game.

Tinkerin atm Lizardman and Skaven gunlines.

From some lists i currently find nothing, like ogres for example and probably DoW (Which seem rather weak).


For the Tomb King army: That's why there are carrions.


I'm beginnin to see some tactical gameplay elements in this. The armour composition is actually guite nice, having the 4+ armors only for specialized groups like dwarf and chaos and having lots of special rules to affect only of units front. I suspect lots of though have been put in to this.

It still feels quite a silly to build armies that do not have any core, but still this could probably be (or will end up as ?) the best ruleset for balanced play.

 Moscha wrote:
Can you post a link to your calculations, so we can discuss it? I am interested, although Math Hammer is not my favorite hobby,
In the end, the game is more than "6 attacks WS 4 S5 plus 5 WS 3 S3 against WS 3 T3 AS 5 equals 4 dead Spearmen, Unit Strength, Ranks plus Standard equals 5, so Spearmen are better than Heavy Cav.".

So we start with a Cavalry unit at 5 man, since this is typically listed as all it takes to sweep any unit off the board. We'll have it facing down what should be the typical mainstay units of an army, and we'll go crappy Core units as well.

Assume a 5 man front on a regiment at least 4 ranks deep. Any less than 4 ranks eliminates rank bonus for combat resolution, which is the true key for turning a close combat. People COULD run little min sized units of 10 with 4 man fronts, but it would be asinine to do so, and I can't come up with one logical reason someone would do that.

Assume full command on both units. Spot of contention here at times, but I'd like to keep things pretty squared up.

With the exception of Chaos Knights who are INDEED an exception, your average Knight unit will be WS 3 or 4, so we will roll with that. Assuming the receiving unit is WS 3, you can allocate 4 hits from the Cavalry riders. Steeds? Not so much. WS 3 on average, so they get a saucy uneven 2.5 hits.

So we're tracking 7 hits against the infantry unit, 4 at St 5-6 depending on the rider, and 3 at St 3 with very few notable exceptions.

3 of those 4 wound on average for the riders, and we will lose half of the horse wounds with an awkward 1.25 wounds.

Saves are a bit tougher to work out as you have such a wide berth of options on Core Infantry. With a simple 5+ you will more than likely get 4 gone, but it's more like 3.95 gone. Assuming you have a champion left in the unit as we have yet to dedicate attacks to the Infantry Champion, he will hit back with 2 hits. That is assuming that the unit doesn't have spears, halberds, or great weapons as this shifts the dynamic significantly.

In a perfectly average batch of rolling you will see a draw. A draw. Adding in characters will skew the model either direction, and we can go over that later.

NOW, let's say someone goes in knowing that, and builds their forces around taking a hit. Core regiments with spears will then have 7 attacks back at the knights with a good chance of swinging the 1 wound needed to bring the tie to a win for the Infantry. That's just a bog standard example, less of a chance against any WS 4 Infantry such as Dwarfs or any Elves.

The only way you can sweep with a Cav unit is to run it deep enough to get at least 1 rank bonus and bring a saucy blender lord with it, which then makes it a target for any shooting that an army can bring to bear. If the unit is 10 Cav strong including characters, it will only take 3 wounds to guarantee that the unit can't get the rank bonus. In a vacuum the Knights against most Infantry simply aren't killy enough to guarantee a sweep. Throw in ANY terrain, the widely available chaff units, and once again any player with an ounce of strategic sense to design units to survive that hit, and Cav doesn't justify a nerf like the lack of march moves that CE brings.

One day when I'm EXCESSIVELY bored I plan on doing a massive chart comparing every Cav unit against every infantry unit based on averages of rolls needed, I'm pretty sure the results will confirm what I'm saying already.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Moscha wrote:
Can you post a link to your calculations, so we can discuss it? I am interested, although Math Hammer is not my favorite hobby,
In the end, the game is more than "6 attacks WS 4 S5 plus 5 WS 3 S3 against WS 3 T3 AS 5 equals 4 dead Spearmen, Unit Strength, Ranks plus Standard equals 5, so Spearmen are better than Heavy Cav.".

So we start with a Cavalry unit at 5 man, since this is typically listed as all it takes to sweep any unit off the board. We'll have it facing down what should be the typical mainstay units of an army, and we'll go crappy Core units as well.

Assume a 5 man front on a regiment at least 4 ranks deep. Any less than 4 ranks eliminates rank bonus for combat resolution, which is the true key for turning a close combat. People COULD run little min sized units of 10 with 4 man fronts, but it would be asinine to do so, and I can't come up with one logical reason someone would do that.

Assume full command on both units. Spot of contention here at times, but I'd like to keep things pretty squared up.

With the exception of Chaos Knights who are INDEED an exception, your average Knight unit will be WS 3 or 4, so we will roll with that. Assuming the receiving unit is WS 3, you can allocate 4 hits from the Cavalry riders. Steeds? Not so much. WS 3 on average, so they get a saucy uneven 2.5 hits.

So we're tracking 7 hits against the infantry unit, 4 at St 5-6 depending on the rider, and 3 at St 3 with very few notable exceptions.

3 of those 4 wound on average for the riders, and we will lose half of the horse wounds with an awkward 1.25 wounds.

Saves are a bit tougher to work out as you have such a wide berth of options on Core Infantry. With a simple 5+ you will more than likely get 4 gone, but it's more like 3.95 gone. Assuming you have a champion left in the unit as we have yet to dedicate attacks to the Infantry Champion, he will hit back with 2 hits. That is assuming that the unit doesn't have spears, halberds, or great weapons as this shifts the dynamic significantly.

In a perfectly average batch of rolling you will see a draw. A draw. Adding in characters will skew the model either direction, and we can go over that later.

NOW, let's say someone goes in knowing that, and builds their forces around taking a hit. Core regiments with spears will then have 7 attacks back at the knights with a good chance of swinging the 1 wound needed to bring the tie to a win for the Infantry. That's just a bog standard example, less of a chance against any WS 4 Infantry such as Dwarfs or any Elves.

The only way you can sweep with a Cav unit is to run it deep enough to get at least 1 rank bonus and bring a saucy blender lord with it, which then makes it a target for any shooting that an army can bring to bear. If the unit is 10 Cav strong including characters, it will only take 3 wounds to guarantee that the unit can't get the rank bonus. In a vacuum the Knights against most Infantry simply aren't killy enough to guarantee a sweep.

Yes, no objections, that's what I said already, you quoted me on this. But as I already said, this misses the point.
The reason why Heavy Infantry is problematic is:

It's also a question of threat range, and possbilities to get into favorable positions, of possibility to gain a Net WIN of point costs out of the deployment of the unit. It is also a question how "forgiving" a unit is to a bad movement decision. Units with a high movement rate are fovorable there. Heavy Cav excels in all of these points, and therefore was problematic.

Throw in ANY terrain, the widely available chaff units, and once again any player with an ounce of strategic sense to design units to survive that hit, and Cav doesn't justify a nerf like the lack of march moves that CE brings.
.

This will help you against an inexperienced player. If you assume one moment that your enemy is equipped with an equal sense of tactical unit movement like you, He will have the upper hand because he has way more opportunity to get into favorable positions with his fast moving heavy cavalry unit, or units, than you.
With more terrain, the use of infanrry blocks gets even more limited and easier to predict
It really won't help you much if you're opponent knows what he's doing.
Why do you think you weren't seeing many armies fielding large infantry blocks like the one you used as am example, if the ar. y had access to Heavy cavalry? Let's take an example from 6th edition here, which Vampire player fielded a background resembling army with a vampire or necromancer lord with skeletons, zombies, grave guard blocks? In the tournaments I played:No one! It wa ssome Dire wolves as core choices, who shielded the one or 2 breaker black knight units withbanner of the barrows and a vampire. Some giant bats or spirit hoststo block away chaff units that would have been able to keep the main units from their destinated targets. That was more or less the concept, Other armies had similar concepts, for example Dark Elves, High Elves, Empire, Bretonnia, Chaos Warriors.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amai wrote:
Yes, the purpose is to find things to exploit for purposes of balancing the game.

Tinkerin atm Lizardman and Skaven gunlines.

From some lists i currently find nothing, like ogres for example and probably DoW (Which seem rather weak).


For the Tomb King army: That's why there are carrions.


I'm beginnin to see some tactical gameplay elements in this. The armour composition is actually guite nice, having the 4+ armors only for specialized groups like dwarf and chaos and having lots of special rules to affect only of units front. I suspect lots of though have been put in to this.

It still feels quite a silly to build armies that do not have any core, but still this could probably be (or will end up as ?) the best ruleset for balanced play.

Yeah fantastic, that is the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Go ahead and try build broken lists. Please excuse if my reply might take its time, I assure you that all your posts will be read and properly answerered!
Haven't had time to reply on the NOrsca lists yet, short feedback from my pov: Definitely hard to handle, target overload of cheap but relativeley capable units, combined with some monsters / Lord that provide high damage output. And not to mention the meatshueld of the bondsmen which do not even cause panic.
The warchants available to these units are in my view over the top for the points they cost. These should have a price tag on them. I think this army might need to be a bit toned down. Haven't played against it yet though. It is a rather rarely played army, as there were no official rules for these. Balancing is not so far as with the "regular" armies, so Arabia, DoW are also candidates where some ups and downs point - or even rule wise might be required.

Amai wrote:
Ok here is another:

TOMB KINGS:

Tomb King + Cursed Blades + Urgency + Execution + Gw + Amulet of Pha-sta = 340 pts

30 Tomb Guard + Full Command + Mirage Standard = 460 pts
3 Carrion = 75 pts

2 Khemrian Warsphinx = 600 pts
1 Necrosphinx = 325 pts
1 Necrolith Colossus = 200 pts

= 2000 pts

Possibe swap is Carrions for Necrotect.

List is illegal, priest is mandatory.

NORSE:

Konnugr + Warhorse + Shield + Ice Blade + Frost Pendant + Werewolf Hide = 205 pts
Battle Standard + Warhorse + Polar Pelt + Mead of Damnation = 125 pts
Godi + Death Frenzy + Frost Blades + The Beast Cowers + Dispel Scroll = 190 pts
= 520 pts

3x30 Axemen = 480 pts
40 Spearmen + Full Command + Frost Fjord Standard = 330 pts
2x40 Bondsmen + Spears = 220 pts

1 War Mammoth = 250 pts
1 Frost Giant = 200 pts

= 2000 pts




BEASTS OF CHAOS:

Great Bray Shaman + Shroud of Darkness + Dark Fury + Doom and Darkness + Word of Pain + Rune of the True Beast + Staff of Darkoth = 275 pts
Battle Standard + Crimson Armor of Dargan + Amulet of Chaos = 140 pts

30 Bestigor + Full Command + War banner = 375 pts
40 Ungor + Spear + Standard + Musician = 160 pts
40 Ungor + Spear + Standard = 155 pts
2x25 Ungor = 160 pts

8 Minotaurs + Gw = 325 pts
7 Minotaurs + Gw = 290 pts

1 Razorgor = 60 pts
5 Harpy = 60 pts

= 2000 pts

This list would be super weak against the list with Ethereal spam.

Yes, this lists seems not so scary on the first sight. Masses and masses of infantry. Could work as a concept in general, but I think it would have trouble against some armies, dwarves or skaven come to my mind. or vampires.

THE EMPIRE:

This is the core build i would go as Empire gunline but not sure about the character setup though. Empire characters seem quite feeble, and the Runefang sure is costly with only 3 attacks.

Master Engineer + Granade Launching Blunderbuss = 50 pts

30 Halberdier = 140 pts
10 Crossbowmen = 80 pts

2x25 Greatswords = 440 pts

3x10 Outriders = 690 pts

Mortar = 75 pts
Cannon = 100 pts
Volley Gun = 125 pts
Halfling Hot Pot = 50 pts

Lots of outriders though and i doubt, that any other army manages a gunline this dangerous.

Yes the outriders have a lot of firepower, but are a bit feeble too. First you have to get them in firing range, and then the enemy has the opportunity to fire first.. So they may be decimated badly before the get the chance to unleash.

You haven't got any character model in except for the engineer, but have only 250 points left. You will at least need one wizard to be able to dispel or you put in 2 Lvl2 wizards with magic missiles / buffs

LIZARDMEN:

Not sure how the "Drop Rocks" ability works, but it's possible to manage a quite irritating nuisance list around these units. 2x12 Terradons for example, possible deleting almost any elite infantry block in the game with expection of Ironbreakers.


SKAVEN:

Seems plenty strong when taking lots of Clanrats and different weapon teams + Jezzails & Poison Wind Globadiers against targets with high Toughness value. Probably wielding more than 300 rats with them.



On side note, here are some probable spelling corrections in the army lists that i have found:

Skaven: Cautious Shield says "By not attacking in this combat" -> Probably means that "in this combat round"

Norse: Athem of Mockery is probably meant to be "Anthem"

Norse: "Body Guard" is probably typed "Bodyguard"

High Elf: Nagarythe Hatred: This is probably meant for Dark elf instead.

Dow: In Halfling Ranger entry there is strange "je" before +7p. (Is that French ?)

Empire: Banner of Steel from White Wolves is not explained what it does ?



Need clarification on this: In Drop Rocks -> What is meant by "hit like template weapons" ?

Tried to check this from the rules but did not finde any general references to this.

SKAVEN:

Seems plenty strong when taking lots of Clanrats and different weapon teams + Jezzails & Poison Wind Globadiers against targets with high Toughness value. Probably wielding more than 300 rats with them.

Skaven can be a real pain. But I am really happy if fielding lots of clanrats is a strong build!
One one tournament a guy fielded a lot of giant rats who he tried to "death frenzy". As they are light infantry, they have a lot of attacks S3... The guy came out 3rd in the tournament. And another Skaven player won (So I would say that Skaven are a force to be reckoned in CE).





On side note, here are some probable spelling corrections in the army lists that i have found:

Skaven: Cautious Shield says "By not attacking in this combat" -> Probably means that "in this combat round"

Norse: Athem of Mockery is probably meant to be "Anthem"

Norse: "Body Guard" is probably typed "Bodyguard"

High Elf: Nagarythe Hatred: This is probably meant for Dark elf instead.

No, it is for the Shadow Warriors of old Nagarythe. So High Elves is correct.


Dow: In Halfling Ranger entry there is strange "je" before +7p. (Is that French ?)

It is actually German, it means "per".

Empire: Banner of Steel from White Wolves is not explained what it does ?
It is the last in the list of banners of Empire, You add D3 to your charge distance.

I have built a solid High Elves list, it is not maxed out, but I think this would manage quite well against your Empire list and against the "Hordes" lists.
A lot of ranged combat, almost every unit is shooting.

I copy pasted in German for now... I will translate later if I find the time.
Baically prince in Dragon princes, 2 Mages with 2magic missiles 2d6 S4, arrow curse, 5+ ward save and re roll 1s for wounds as spells
Archers, Sea guard, 2x5 ellyrian reavers with bows, 10 sisters of Avelorn, 2 repeater bolt throwers.



Prinz 140 245 KOM
Elfenross 25
Schild 10
schwere Rüstung 10
Schwert d. Macht 25
Heiliger Weihrauch 30
Langbogen 5



Magier 30 220 HELD
Sternenholzstab 30
Göttl. Führung 35
Pfeilfluch 50
Zorn d. Khaine 75

Magier 30 180 HELD
Bannrolle 30
Schild v. Saphery 45
Zorn d. Khaine 75



16 Bogenschützen 160 160 KERN


5 ellyr. Grenzreiter 95 115 ELITE
Bogen 20

5 ellyr. Grenzreiter 95 115 ELITE
Bogen 20


20 Seegardisten 250 300 KERN
Kommando 50

10 Schwestern von Avelorn 175 175 ELITE

7 Drachenprinzen 190 270 ELITE
Kommando 50
Ithilmarbanner 30

2 Repsen 220 220 SELTEN


2000

We will be having a small re-introduction igame n Warhammer Fantasy on Sunday. Two friends of mine, who played Warhammer until about 2008 / 2009, are now getting the dust off their Wood Elves and Dark Elves. Another one who is a 9th Age Tournament player also decided to join in, will be playing Demons of Chaos. And in addition, a friend who plays dwarves and has played Warhammer CE only once so far will also join. We are only 2 experienced players to teach them the basics again, so this will be a challenge The other experienced player will field Empire, and I will bring my Greenskins. We will be doing 1500 points without lord characters.

Well, the 9th age player has been playing tournaments since 6th edition, so he knows the Warhammer rules basically very well. Should be no problem for him to get into the rules again. The dwarf player has been playing only occasionally in the past, he is more into building scenery than actually playing. So he explicitly demanded some "coaching" for the game. The Wood Elves player had a short introduction already. The Dark Elves player is the one who is going to need the most support, he really hasn't touched the figures for more than 10 years.
So I am going to play against the Dark Elves player first, The empire player gets to play the Wood Elves, and the dwarf player will be playing against the Demons of Chaos. If we find the time, we will make 2 or even three games.

I built a sturdy list with a lot of Orcs, two shamans and some war machines.

I wanted the list to be infantry-heavy.
It contains:

An Orc Big Boss with great weapon, Gorks Armour (Heavy armour, +1 Tougness) 110 points

An Orc BSB , heavy armour, Umms Best Boss Helmet (5+ Ward Save), Sword of Striking (+1 to hit) 130 points

Orc shaman
Bash em ladz ( (unit re-rolls 1s to-hit in melee)
Brain bursta (Magic Missile 2D6 S4)
Ere we go (unit fights a round of combat, enemy does not fight back)
Dispel Scroll 195 points

Night goblin Shaman
Gaze of Mork (Magic Missile D6 S3, No armor saves)
Gork'll fix it (Curse enemy unit, -1 to hit, to wound and armour saves) 140 points

25 Orcs
additional choppa
full command 180 points

25 Orcs
Spears & Shield
full command 200 points

24 Night goblins with short bows 68 points

5 Wolf riders with spears 65 points

16 Black Orcs 212 points

1 Spear Chucka 50 points

1 Rock lobba 70 points

1 Doomdiver 80 points

What do you think? I think it should be okay to play against.
Maybe a bit too much points in charactes (more than one third...magic is very expensive). Option would be to remove the BSB and take 13 Savage Orcs with additional choppa (and reduce Goblins to 23 to make the point costs fit).
















Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle plan:

Night Goblins Center, flanked by the Orc mobs, which contain the Orc Characters.
Black Orcs march behind to suppress animosity.

Goblin Wolf riders will distract flanking units.
Artillery shoots and forces enemy to advance, or will draw artillery fire away from the infantry units.
The big blocks should be able to take some fire and still be sturdy enough to hold against all opposition the enemy can come up with. The Night Goblins will draw some fire too, and they run if charged by any opponent. This will possibly enable a counter charge by one of the three other units. Black Orcs will move up in counter charge positiona fter one round. or already be in counter charge position. Orc Mobs should at least remain in combat with the characters included and the support of the BSB and supportive spells by the Orc shaman or the powerful curse of the night goblin shaman.

Amai wrote:
Yes, the purpose is to find things to exploit for purposes of balancing the game.

Tinkerin atm Lizardman and Skaven gunlines.

From some lists i currently find nothing, like ogres for example and probably DoW (Which seem rather weak).

Have you already built some extreme Lizardman and Skaven armies?

A short feedback on the games played yesterday:

I played one game against Dark Elves.

His list was built with the idea of having a lot of different units in it to get a feeling of how they are played. The list therefore was quite unique

He had just one character model, a lvl 2 sorceress with black staff, and 2 magic spells.
He had a small unit of spearmen (11 or so,) some corsairs also maybe 11 or 12), 10 repeater crossbowmen, 2 Bolt Throwers, Cold One Knights, 11 Executioners, 9 Shades, 9 Dark Riders.

I helped him here and there in some tactical decisions, and he managed to defeat me (minor victory) The firepower was too much even for my Orcs
And I killed of my doom diver in round one by a misfire

He shot my Orc boyz with additional choppa to pieces, the contained the Big Boss. He attacked them in round 4 when they were just 13 models left, killed 4 Orc Boys and wounded the Big boss. In return, I just killed 2 Executioners. So I lost combat and got run over. The black orcs charged the Executioners and took good care of them the next round.

At the same time, the night goblins got attacked by the corsairs. Although my night goblins were larger in numbers, standing on a hill and had 3 ranks (passive combat resolutiion +5) and the corsairs only one rank plus standard (passive combat res +2), they killed enough night goblins to force a break test. And with the general gone (and the ASB out of range, comingt to that later on...) they got run over too

The Orcs with Spears and the BSB had been charged by the Cold One Knights in round three. Which was a bad idea from the start But he didn't have any other choice really. He wanted to deploy them that way although i had warned him. I had to finish them off and charged into the spearmen with sorceress the next turn, and broke that unit too.

The Black orcs were shot down to 6 models and panicked in the last round

The Shades didn't do to much than hiding in the forest and shooting at my war machines. They killed the spear chukka in the last round. Well... And the Dar Riders got decimated by the spear chucka and took out my wolf riders who tried to cover the spear chucka from the bolts fired by the shades...











Automatically Appended Next Post:
Secon game was against Wood Elves,
it looked really, really good until Turn 3.

I totally had the upper hand, no big losses except for the Wolf riders, and some Orcs.
I had taken out a unit of rangers, some archers, and his eagle had only one wound left.

I had moved up until a few inches from his deployment zone, he used the good old "fire and retreat" tactics. Now he was forced to use his offensive units, he had a treeman (which had been hiding for 3 turns behind a forest from my artillery). He had some dryads and a large unit of war dancers with a hero... He charged my night goblins,with the dryads, I ran away with them to counter charge them with my black orcs. All going according to plan.

The BSB was with the black orcs, in this game. He charged the Orc boys with his war dancers, I hoped they would eventually hold with the BSB behind them
Then: He finally decided that he had to get out of the cover and charged my Orc boys with the general inside, which failed their terror test and ran away!
In the shooting phase, he gave all he got on the black orcs, which wasn't really much. BUT: As he sensationally killed 4 Black Orcs with 5 shots from the other unit of rangers (hit on 2, wound on a 4 in short range ) they PANICKED TOO and ran in impassable terrain. Dead. The Orc unit did hold for one round (because his war dancers did not wound more than 4 or so, despite their 16 attacks I think..., butt in the upcoming rounds I got butchered badly.
Personal low was my General. He was fighting in a challenge with the Wood Elves General, they both had one wound. I got the Ere we go spell through on the unit (irresistible force!) and got to hit that lousy elf without him being able to figt back... HAR HAR HAR, Three attacks with great weapon, S6 . 2 ones and one two later... well My orcs didnt do any better, they did 4 wounds on the war dancers, but he saved 3 of them on a 6. Arghhhhh....

Had a nice game with my Dark Elves against Ogres at 2500 points.
Minor victory for the Ogres.

A bit of bad luck tipped the balance in the last 2 rounds from a draw to the minor victory for the Ogres.

I fielded a Supreme Sorceress with Word of Pain, Dominion, Black Horror, Doom Bolt, and as PM spell Dark Fury.
She had the dagger of sacrifice to generate more Power Dice to make good use of her spells.

I also fielded a BSB with Hydra Banner on Cold One

Core units were:

25 Dark Elves with Spears and full Command

10 Repeater Crossbows

5 Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows

10 Raiders

5 Harpies

Special:

18 Executioners, Full Command

A Cold One Chariot

7 Cold One Knights, Champion

6 Shades

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

1 Hydra

1 Bloodwrack Medusa

He had something like:

1 Tyrant with a Tenderiser

1 Butcher with Bonecruncher, Toothcracker and Iron Flesh
He was equipped with the Bloodcleaver and the Bangstick

6 Ogre Bulls, naked

Big Unit of Ironguts

2x 4 Leadbelchers

5 Sabretusks

4 Yhetees

1 Scraplauncha

1 Slave Giant

1 Ironblaster


My stupidity checks went ridiculously bad the whole game, I managed to fail 3 of 4 tests on LD 9 with the BSB and his Cold Ones, resulting for them in being charged by the 6 Ogres and the Scraplauncha in the Flank.
The Chariot trodded forward twice after failing both of his stupidity checks in round one and two, and was deservedly beaten to a bloody pulp by the Giant in one combat round.

The Black Horror Spell looks good on paper, but against Ogres it was a really bad choice. You won't hit many models even with a 5" template, and the damage done to these T4 / T5 models is minimal. The panic test for losses is well, only useful if the enemy actually loses a model, not a wound...

Let's state it this way, my sorceress did more damage to my own battle line by making use of her sacrificial dagger than the spells did to the Ogres . nah , not really, she did pretty ok, as the curses like stopping an enemy's movement are of course very useful, and reducing BS and WS to 1 helped a lot.

I went out of the way of the big unit with the butcher and the tyrant inside. I decimated the yhetees and the sabretusks by with shooting, and the repeater bolt throwers were going for the really hard targets as the giant (sucessfully shot in round 3) and the Iron Blaster (not sucessful at all).
I managed to kill one of his leadbelcher units with my my Hydra (with one wound remaining!) and then moved the Bloodwrack Medusa out of a forest to make a combined attack on the Iron Blaster. As I was too close for firing the cannon at either of these two units, he tried to fire a Grapeshot at the Hydra, but failed to wound. In the following rounds there was a hard melee between these three units, in which's course I was able to reduce the Iron Blaster to one wound, rout it, (but not catch it), it rallied, another two rounds of close combat, ending with both my units dead and his one still alive with the one wound. Crazy!

The Executioners were shot down to half it's size, but finally managed to get an attack on the other Leadbelcher unit and routed them.

CE looks like it repeats the one major flaw of pre-8th WFB.

Fixed charge ranges.

Every game I played, you had both sides shuffling around just outside charge range hoping to lure the other side in. Got majorly boring in my opinion.

Yes, range 'guessing' was supposed to solve that, but let's face it. There's far too many ways to cheat it... not least of which is the method written into the rules, shooting.

I do not consider it a flaw. Random charge distance wouldn't have made the game better.

But hey, have fun playing 8 th edition or 9th Age.

 Vulcan wrote:
CE looks like it repeats the one major flaw of pre-8th WFB.

Fixed charge ranges.

Every game I played, you had both sides shuffling around just outside charge range hoping to lure the other side in. Got majorly boring in my opinion.

Yes, range 'guessing' was supposed to solve that, but let's face it. There's far too many ways to cheat it... not least of which is the method written into the rules, shooting.

Ah yes the dance. Its been a long time since I have thought of the dance. There was even an early web meme on the dance, showing two armies screaming toward each other cinematically, and then stopping and doing the side way shuffle until someone overstepped by an inch. And then everyone looks at that one guy that overstepped (his side with anger, the other side with overjoyed expressions) and then they come rushing in.

I don't miss the dance either it was very jarring and immersion breaking.

Like I've stated multiple times, I only saw someone do the dance once in person. A round of 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers got him moving.

I wish I had your experience. The dance was pretty much every game for me. It is the one main reason why I prefer random charge distances.

People around my area tended to either plop gunline if a cheesemonster, or would build their units explicitly to survive a charge. Max speed, no reason to bait as the unit was dangling for the opponent to charge.

 Vulcan wrote:
CE looks like it repeats the one major flaw of pre-8th WFB.

Fixed charge ranges.

That's not the actual flaw. The real flaw is just giving too much unrealistic advantage for charging, but that's a fundamental redesign.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
CE looks like it repeats the one major flaw of pre-8th WFB.

Fixed charge ranges.

That's not the actual flaw. The real flaw is just giving too much unrealistic advantage for charging, but that's a fundamental redesign.

It's the combination of three issues. Fixed charge distance + no pre-measuring + extreme bonus for charging.

The game system rewards gamey stuff and outright cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I had lots of fun in 6th and 7th (just like I had with 4th and 5th) but these issues conditioned way too many games.

8th edition introducing both pre-measuring and random charge distance opened play and actually encouraged people to talk it out and agree before any dice had been rolled.

jouso wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
CE looks like it repeats the one major flaw of pre-8th WFB.

Fixed charge ranges.

That's not the actual flaw. The real flaw is just giving too much unrealistic advantage for charging, but that's a fundamental redesign.

It's the combination of three issues. Fixed charge distance + no pre-measuring + extreme bonus for charging.

Sure, but it comes down primarily to that big charge bonus. Take that away, and the other issues fade away. Suppose there were NO combat bonuses from charging, just a +1 morale bump - the nonsense basically disappears, because you will still get to attack with your guys and if you have a solid block, you probably won't lose morale anyways.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373349-Warhammer-CE-the-definitive-rule-set-for-WFB-veterans&p=7012727&viewfull=1#post7012727



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That discussion is as old as the ruleset


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373349-Warhammer-CE-the-definitive-rule-set-for-WFB-veterans&p=6807317&viewfull=1#post6807317

This post (please note : these are from 2013, and were made from the thrn actual standpoint of an actual 8th edition.)

It pretty much nails why I think "The Dance" or "Standoff", as it was alsao referred to, is not much of a problem really.

I find if your opponent is set on dancing around, just find a different opponent. random charge distances are one of the things i hate about 8th. just add step up into 6th and the bonus for charging isn't enough to warrant a dance. sure you get the + to strength or whatever for the charge, but your opponent is going to be hitting back.

Point balance with step up will be pushed over a bit I think.

Elves, for example pay for their high initiative value for a reason.

With step up, the advantage you have for hitting first against a, let's say Orc, is zero.
But this is quite important for Elves, especially for Elite Elves.

Take Swordmasters for example. If they engage a unit of Orc Boys that cost as much as they do, they are outnumbered and have to rely heavily on causing some wounds without suffering some themselves.

Example: Take 15 Swordmasters, Full Command, which is a reasonable size for Swordmasters. They will cost 250 points.
This gives you a unit that is more resilient to ranged attacks than other High Elves Infantry (-1 to hit for ranged attacks in the front) and is capable of dealing out quite some damage, thanks to their special rules giving them an additional attack for each model they kill, and, attacking according to Ini despite wielding Greatswords.

For 235 points, you get 30 Orc Boys with Choppa and Shield, Full Command, and a War Banner. You will still have 15 points left compared to the High Elf player.

So, if we leave the case away in which the Swordmasters will be charged by the Orcs, which is less probable due to the higher movement rate of the Swordmasters, the Swordmasters will strike first, (5 wide assumed) four hits, 2 or 3 wounds, and due to their sprecial rule the will get to hit 2 or 3 times again, and wound maybe one additional time. Let's say 3 wounds in total, killing 3 Orc Boys. Still, they Orc boys can counterattack with 2 boys ( champion considered dead).
Which will result in maybe one dead Swordmaster, as they hit on 4 and wound on 4.

Combat result would be 3+2+1 =6 for the High Elves, against 1+3+1+1+1 = 7 for the Orcs!

If the Orcs could step up, the result is even more in favor of the Orcs. And if the Orcs were not using Choppa and Shield against the Swordmasters, but 2 Choppas instead, it would look even worse.
So a Break test on 7 for the Swordmasters would be actually a 6 or less. Quite a difference!!


Of course, this is just an example, what I wanted to say is basically that introducing step up has a lot of impact on the game, and would require a total work-around in point costs for every unit, every equipment type if they are supposed to stay fair, if this is the goal.

For a relatively small benefit, the case that you can roll some more attacks (even the Orcs get to attack in the example above! ), it just seems.. not necessary or good for the game.

Some impressions from our campaign game "Grudge of Drong", the second mission, where a runelord named Grung is being ambushed by the High Elves.

The Elves hit the Dawi hard with magic missiles and decimated them badly.

Then, the Quarrellers did a tactical retreat from an attack, but werent rallying on 9 as they were supposed to. So the Shadow Warriors and the Eagle could double-charge them and take them out without a fight.

The decimated Longbeards and Hammerers just were to hesitating to get into close combat, he always tried to lure me in a position where he could counter charge, but why should I have done that - he should have moved more agressively. This way, I could take out all of his units one by one.

An update to the rules to version 1.06 is intended to take place next year.

One suggestion is to improve cannons a bit.

In CE, cannons roll for multiple wounds on a D3, which is the maximum for all warmachines.
The suggestion was to allow a re-roll on this.

I think that is a good suggestion.

I was sceptical at first; From an O&G point of view, I was always feeling a cannon was far superior to a bolt thrower, because they tend to hit more often if the unit is big. but reducing the damage to D3 from D6 made it comparably weaker against large targets, while still having the issue of misfiring.
So, considering the higher price, I think it is an "ok" change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you have suggestions, feel free to post them and I will forward them to the designer, so it will be taken into consideration.

I like many of the original rules. All in all i think they are probbly the best rule base.

By original rules you mean 7th edition? Sure, I prefer it to 6th, as it is basically the same with some improvements in psychology effects and formation (no encircling enemy units anymore - that was more problematic than useful).
CE made some things more reliable and plannable, at the cost of some randomness. Some like it, some dislike it, overall I like it and there is still enough things that can get totally out of hand
No complete overhaul of the actual CE rules is planned, it is rather fine-tuning of point costs, special rules etc. that proved to be, or at least seem to be out of balance.So no worries here.

The best in CE is that you buy the spells. Really, I like it.
But: I found it to become a bit repetitive using the same spells over and over again.
So I suggested to make the 8 lores accessible to more than just the Empire, at least to the extent as it used to be in 6th/7th edition.
For example,Lore of Shadows, Death and Fire to Dark Elves,
Lore of Heavens, Light, Life to Bretonia. In the actual rules, certain armies have access to a list of spells which is partially composed out of some spells of the 8 lores.
I understand that it is very difficult to perfectly balance these spells point-cost wise( for example, a buff spell in an empire list may be less effective than in Chaos Warriors or the other way round), but I think the effect of this is rather limited, so this disadvantage does not outweigh the improved army creation possibilities.

Thoughts?