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2017/07/27 17:47:56
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:24:41
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/07/27 18:25:39
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
Im a pretty new player, but I can think straight away of a 170 point unit that can pop a rhino in one turn. Salamander (for the rerolls) Devastators have a decent chance of killing it in one round of shooting. Add in split fire from pretty much anything else to finish it off if the lascannon damage rolls are bad. I'm confident there are lots of similar things in other armys, since anti tank firepower is pretty easy to come by. Anti infantry on the other hand, nowhere near as effective for the points. That's kinda the problem. So we could rewrite the rules and add in extra hits for old blast weapons, buff every army in the game, or we could just nerf the handful on units that aren't costed appropriately...
2017/07/27 19:17:30
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
And Grey Knights are notoriously bad at dealing with hordes, so that's closer to complaining that you need to use way too many heavy bolters to kill a Rhino. Well yeah, because heavy bolters are terrible at killing vehicles.
Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Technically the ideal thing would probably be pathfinders with pulse rifles, unfortunately they can't do that. (on that note, does anyone know why Pathfinders are 5 points but Fire Warriors are 8? 3 points is quite a steep premium to go from 5+ to 4+ armor)
And Tau are considered underpowered right now.
Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
Why do Tau shoot things off the table so much more efficiently than GK? Because Tau is a shooting army, GK is an awkward blend of shooting, assaulting, and psykers. IG and Tau are basically the only two pure (or nearly pure) shooting armies in the game. Anyone else is going to have to throw some assaulting into the mix, because they can't just expect to stand back and shoot those two armies off the table.
That assaulting is nothing to sneeze at either, for armies that are good at it a charge after shooting can get them 1.5x or 2x as much damage done in that turn (partially because a lot of them have equal BS and WS, and as many attacks as they have shots, so it's basically a second shooting phase for them). That's as good as using FRFSRF, albeit much shorter ranged.
2017/07/27 19:30:15
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
crimsondave wrote: This is getting ridiculous. I didn't see this much flip out over scatterbikes and riptide spam. Just take their orders and be done with it.
What in the cornbread hell are you talking about?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/07/27 19:44:00
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
Do you have some figures for that?
In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.
Let's see though.
Spoiler:
Captain w/MCBG and chainsword Primaris Lieutenant As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled. 4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer. Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers. Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers. Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR. Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.
Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.
Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.
*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 19:48:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/07/27 20:02:19
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Did you include the cost of the markerlights? Because 500 pts of pathfinders can't do it. It's closer to 760 pts by my count. As for the 633 that you use as your goal value for 3x conscripts cost, I think it's 603 at most - 150 + commissar + platoon commander is 201 the multiplied by 3. This can be brought down further by sharing characters between conscripts units, but lets use 603 as the mark.
ross-128 wrote: Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Almost right on the first one, the fireblade brings it up to 635. With the commander it's also a bit low, I get 531 pts for commander + fireblade + 46 fire warriors. Although it must be said that getting all of these models within 15'' the turn before you fire is rather unrealistic.
ross-128 wrote: Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
I have been reliably informed that getting 150 models within rapid fire range like that is impossible. But certainly true in a mathematical sense, and the conscripts are even better at killing themselves if you get to put enough of them within 12''.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 20:15:19
2017/07/27 20:10:41
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Martel732 wrote: "Somebody fielding 200 conscripts is ridiculous, though. "
Have you met the community? Dual WK, screamerstar, mass scatterbike? People will do it.
The benefit of not being in a tournament is the simple ability to say "no".
<Opponent pulls out 200 conscripts>
"Nope. I'm going to go home and do something constructive. I don't have time to slog through 200 cheap wounds while you tank me to death over a screen."
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
2017/07/27 20:33:37
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Melissia wrote: Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
Why do they get to throw their grenades?
Otherwise I have no issue with your example. 4 tac squads using flamers with support, standing about 8'' away from the conscripts, will kill 33-34 of them with their shooting. I think you would achieve better results if some of your squad members threw frag grenades instead of firing their bolters.
If you're going to include the assault I'd recommend going with genestealers instead, 400 points of those will kill all of the conscripts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 20:46:06
2017/07/27 20:52:41
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Tetengo wrote: How about something that doesn't magically teleport to within 8"?
Oh, you mean like how people have been making all 50 conscripts magically teleport within 12" completely unharmed in order to "demonstrate" how "powerful" their shooting is, yet you didn't call them out on that?
180*3=540, I'll use that as my limit.
Captain on bike w/storm bolter, power axe. 5x3 scout bikers w/SB on sarge.
Spoiler:
Cap biker gets 8 boltgun shots at 2+, rerolling 1s to hit. 7.778 hits, 5.185 wounds, 3.457 removed models. Scout bikers get 30 shotgun shots at 3+, rerolling 1s to hit. 23&1/3rd hits, 15.556 wounds, 10.37 removed models. Scout bikers get 40 boltgun shots at 3+, rerolling 1s to hit. 31.111 hits, 20.741 wounds, 13.827 removed models. Total around 28 removed models.
They then charge. 5 grenades at 3+ rerolling 1s, 13.611 hits, 6.806 wounds, 4.537 models removed. 1 grenade at 2+ rerolling 1s, 3.403 hits, 1.702 wounds, 1.134 models removed. 35 attacks from the scouts at 3+ rerolling 1s, 27.222 hits, 18.148 wounds, 12 models removed. 4 attacks from the captain at 2+ rerolling 1s, 3.889 hits, 3.241 wounds, all unsaved. Around 5 wounds of overkill.
Done. Fun fact is, I'm not even a veteran marine player here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sossen wrote: Why do they get to throw their grenades?
My bad. I misread the grenade rules. Still, my point is made. Even sacrificing a bolter for a grenade, they still do enough damage that they go in to overkill, and the scout bikers don't even need grenades to go in to overkill.
And these aren't even really spectacular builds. Just something I threw together almost at random.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 20:55:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/07/27 20:59:22
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Melissia wrote: Oh, you mean like how people have been making all 50 conscripts magically teleport within 12" completely unharmed in order to "demonstrate" how "powerful" their shooting is, yet you didn't call them out on that?
I can't recall anyone in this thread saying that getting 50+ infantry models within 12'' of anything is feasible. Except for this:
ross-128 wrote:Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
2017/07/27 21:01:53
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
I think it was the other thread, and I'm not sure if anyone had ever actually said it, but the fundamental baseline for most arguments was that all 50 conscripts were unharmed and present, generally within 12" range. Because "vacuum", I guess.
I think it got called out once or twice, but it didn't really alter anything.
Also, why are there two threads open on what's basically the same thing? Makes me sad.
One thing to keep in mind is it's easier for a small unit to get fully in range of a large unit than vice versa.
For example, if you have one squad of 30 and three squads of 10, it's entirely possible for only 1/3 of the large squad to be within 12" of any one of the small squads, but all three small squads are within 12" of at least part of the large squad (because of the 1/3 that is within 12" of them).
Which means if the 30 man squad targets any one of the 10 man squads, it can only double-tap with 1/3 of its models, but all three 10-man squads can retaliate with double-tapping. It's just one of the advantages of MSU, easier range manipulation.
It's not guaranteed, sure, nothing is guaranteed, it's just skewed a little bit in that direction.
2017/07/27 21:10:43
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
And Grey Knights are notoriously bad at dealing with hordes, so that's closer to complaining that you need to use way too many heavy bolters to kill a Rhino. Well yeah, because heavy bolters are terrible at killing vehicles.
Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Technically the ideal thing would probably be pathfinders with pulse rifles, unfortunately they can't do that. (on that note, does anyone know why Pathfinders are 5 points but Fire Warriors are 8? 3 points is quite a steep premium to go from 5+ to 4+ armor)
And Tau are considered underpowered right now.
Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
Why do Tau shoot things off the table so much more efficiently than GK? Because Tau is a shooting army, GK is an awkward blend of shooting, assaulting, and psykers. IG and Tau are basically the only two pure (or nearly pure) shooting armies in the game. Anyone else is going to have to throw some assaulting into the mix, because they can't just expect to stand back and shoot those two armies off the table.
That assaulting is nothing to sneeze at either, for armies that are good at it a charge after shooting can get them 1.5x or 2x as much damage done in that turn (partially because a lot of them have equal BS and WS, and as many attacks as they have shots, so it's basically a second shooting phase for them). That's as good as using FRFSRF, albeit much shorter ranged.
In this edition, the storm bolter is the ideal weapon for killing conscripts. At least from a marine standpoint.
And if you're going to say GK suck at dealing with hordes, well, we also suck at dealing at range, too, with our guns not reaching passed 24".
So what does that even mean? We suck at being anti-vehicle, we suck at being anti-horde despite having base wargear that is optimal for dealing with hordes.
Should I just suck it up and expect to be tabled by guard until 9th edition comes out? And Tau get ROCKED by guard, because in practice you won't get any of those units anywhere near the conscripts, and as a long range shooting army, Tau is best equipped to deal with guard in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 21:11:04
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/07/27 21:12:55
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: One thing to keep in mind is it's easier for a small unit to get fully in range of a large unit than vice versa.
You are correct.
MSU is a popular build for a very good reason.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/07/27 21:13:16
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Melissia wrote: My bad. I misread the grenade rules. Still, my point is made. Even sacrificing a bolter for a grenade, they still do enough damage that they go in to overkill, and the scout bikers don't even need grenades to go in to overkill.
And these aren't even really spectacular builds. Just something I threw together almost at random.
There's nothing wrong with the math, but each example requires close range and then includes the assault figures. There are plenty of examples of units that can achieve this level of efficiency vs conscripts with melee, such as my genestealer example. What I am questioning is the vailidity of the original statement:
ross-128 wrote:It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
I'm interested in the instances where pure anti-infantry shooting can be that efficient. Preferrably outside of flamer range, at that point it's basically a melee unit anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 21:15:18
2017/07/27 21:24:59
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
It's not my fault the psychic phase got nerfed to into the ground as a reaction to psykers being too strong in 6th/7th. I certainly agree that ideally balance would be handled with a more delicate hand than that, but just because GKs became collateral damage in GW nuking the psychic phase is no reason to try to drag everyone else down with them.
If you're lucky you won't have to wait until 9th because GW will make GK better at being psykers in the codex. But the fact of the matter is, the GK pretty much rise and fall on how the psychic phase is handled because all of their units are psykers.
And I will say this: fire warriors are over-pointed if you ask me. Tau would benefit a lot if pathfinders could take pulse rifles, and if fire warriors were dropped to 7 points. Maaaaybe 6, that might be too far the other way. The only reason they were stacking up so well in a shooting-only comparison is because, like I said, there are only two shooting-focused armies in the game and one of them is Guard.
Also, 8 points for drones is way too much. They're only BS5+ and they don't get to pick their targets, they should only cost 6 points at most and I'm only estimating that high because of savior protocols.
2017/07/27 21:29:16
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Colonel Cross wrote: I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.
I'm more concerned about not being able to efficiently cause damage. They never get within range if I don't want them to.
2017/07/27 21:40:22
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
ross-128 wrote: It's not my fault the psychic phase got nerfed to into the ground as a reaction to psykers being too strong in 6th/7th. I certainly agree that ideally balance would be handled with a more delicate hand than that, but just because GKs became collateral damage in GW nuking the psychic phase is no reason to try to drag everyone else down with them.
If you're lucky you won't have to wait until 9th because GW will make GK better at being psykers in the codex. But the fact of the matter is, the GK pretty much rise and fall on how the psychic phase is handled because all of their units are psykers.
And I will say this: fire warriors are over-pointed if you ask me. Tau would benefit a lot if pathfinders could take pulse rifles, and if fire warriors were dropped to 7 points. Maaaaybe 6, that might be too far the other way. The only reason they were stacking up so well in a shooting-only comparison is because, like I said, there are only two shooting-focused armies in the game and one of them is Guard.
Also, 8 points for drones is way too much. They're only BS5+ and they don't get to pick their targets, they should only cost 6 points at most and I'm only estimating that high because of savior protocols.
But that's the thing, Grey Knights weren't even strong in terms of psychic in 7th edition. We had some warp dice, but not enough to really do anything meaningful compared to other psyker armies. Additionally, it was tough to make use out of the new Space Marines powers because most tournament formats had them banned completely.
I will say that I actually stand a chance against daemons now in 8th, where i had absolutely 0 chance in 7th.
It's fine. I struggled with Tau, Eldar, and Daemons in 7th, and i'll struggle with Imperial Guard, overall Astra Millitarium, and Tau (because of Forgeworld, they do well against against GK), in 8th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 21:40:38
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/07/27 22:25:20
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
sossen wrote: I'm interested in the instances where pure anti-infantry shooting can be that efficient. Preferrably outside of flamer range, at that point it's basically a melee unit anyway.
In that case you'll have to look outside of Space Marines. Space Marines are generalists; they utilize their points best when they shoot and then assault. Because otherwise you're saying "I want to have close combat ability, but not use it". And, similarly, if you want something outside of rapid fire range, you're also going to be paying points for the privilege of range.
Bear in mind, though, I'm not using any stratagems, chapter tactics, psychic powers, or what have you, these are just purely unit vs unit mathhammer with the occasional character aura buff. Imperial Fists come to mind as a faction that can very much turn this calculation on its head with their bolter drill.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/07/27 23:14:53
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
On one hand I'm kind of glad the GK are immune to the Primaris nonsense, but on the other hand, I sort of wish that they got something like the Lieutenants.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
5 TLAC Razorbacks will kill many. Put enough of a dent to circumvent them, or wipe them out with any troops headed towards the tanks.
But you could spend the other 1400 points on Lasers to kill the tanks behind the conscripts, then the TLAC razors could spend the entire game gunning down conscrips and tally a high murder count to clear objectives or whatever.
Or you swap it and go with Lazorbacks etc. to kill tanks, and use basic marines to face down conscripts over the course of the game. They dont really so enough damage to win a firefight with the right troops.
Besides, tactical marines can easily wipe out conscripts at short range with a few rounds of shooting, especially after the conscripts have been hit hard by other shooting. Hell, if you have a five-man unit of Reivers, you can even stop the conscripts from doing overwatch, and just pile in afterwards with ground-pounder assault marines that were riding in your TLAC razors.
Hell, I showed how a few cheap tac squads with flamer/combiflamer could potentially wipe out an entire conscript squad in one turn earlier. And then they're free to do whatever else you need them to do afterwards, because it's not like they just vanish after they kill those conscripts.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 06:15:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/07/28 11:32:51
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Melissia wrote: Besides, tactical marines can easily wipe out conscripts at short range with a few rounds of shooting, especially after the conscripts have been hit hard by other shooting. Hell, if you have a five-man unit of Reivers, you can even stop the conscripts from doing overwatch, and just pile in afterwards with ground-pounder assault marines that were riding in your TLAC razors.
Hell, I showed how a few cheap tac squads with flamer/combiflamer could potentially wipe out an entire conscript squad in one turn earlier. And then they're free to do whatever else you need them to do afterwards, because it's not like they just vanish after they kill those conscripts.
Not when the rest of the guard list kills your guys while you are wasting you time shooting 3 pt models. Marines don't have a few rounds against guard.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
5 TLAC Razorbacks will kill many. Put enough of a dent to circumvent them, or wipe them out with any troops headed towards the tanks.
But you could spend the other 1400 points on Lasers to kill the tanks behind the conscripts, then the TLAC razors could spend the entire game gunning down conscrips and tally a high murder count to clear objectives or whatever.
Or you swap it and go with Lazorbacks etc. to kill tanks, and use basic marines to face down conscripts over the course of the game. They dont really so enough damage to win a firefight with the right troops.
TLAC is probably getting the nerf bat and I don't own any anyway. Conscripts will probably have their turn as well. T3 5+ is kinda undercosted in 8th. Also, I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TLAC razors to a standard game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 11:35:27
2017/07/28 12:00:05
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.
By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.
Still waiting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 12:00:28
