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 Deadshot wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

So essentially you're saying "You're right, he does do all this godlike stuff, but none of it matters."

That's super Mary Sue. Beating the dick out of Mortarian for fluff-contrived reasons is Mary Sue. Genociding the collective entirety of the Immaterium, whether it comes back or not, is Mary Sue.

It's almost made worse that it comes back, because then he just does it again. And again. He literally slaughters his way through unreality, and unreality has the common decency to come back so he can have another jolly go!

His actions may be pointless "in-universe" but from our perspective looking in he just looks like a Mary Sue. Someone who blenderizes all opponents who dare stand before him, even if they get up again, because he's the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best with no downsides.

And no, 'the demons come back' is not a downside. That's just more fuel to the fire. A SoB would love for the daemons she could effortlessly slay to come back, because that's just more heretics to purge.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

So essentially you're saying "You're right, he does do all this godlike stuff, but none of it matters."

That's super Mary Sue. Beating the dick out of Mortarian for fluff-contrived reasons is Mary Sue. Genociding the collective entirety of the Immaterium, whether it comes back or not, is Mary Sue.

It's almost made worse that it comes back, because then he just does it again. And again. He literally slaughters his way through unreality, and unreality has the common decency to come back so he can have another jolly go!

His actions may be pointless "in-universe" but from our perspective looking in he just looks like a Mary Sue. Someone who blenderizes all opponents who dare stand before him, even if they get up again, because he's the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best with no downsides.

And no, 'the demons come back' is not a downside. That's just more fuel to the fire. A SoB would love for the daemons she could effortlessly slay to come back, because that's just more heretics to purge.

No, essentially I'm saying there's nothing godlike about him. He doesnt change reality and he has no influence on anything. He doesn't genocide anything either. He doesn't go slaughtering entire continents of Daemons. He''ll come across a wandering band of Daemonettes out to seduce some poor fool, and kill those 10 daemons. Occassionally he'll wander into a Bloodthirster's lair and kick ass but (and this next part was also canon) most Daemons just avoid him now. He just wanders around doing bugger all most of the time. Looking for Daemons to slay but there's none because they avoid him. Not because he'll kill them but because they come back and he'll slaughter them so instead of wasting effort trying, they just let him be a paperweight. He has so much strength, but no power or influence as well. Why both burning the gardens and tearing down castles anymore? They rebuild and regrow. His entire existance is utterly pointless. In universe, out of universe. "Blenderizes all opponents" is irrelevant when no one tries to fight him.

He was Mary Sue because he had the best of the best of the best with no downsides. Way back when. That's no longer the case. He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.


And yes, the Daemons come back is a downside. An SoB who loved Daemons coming back is a heretic, and would probably fall to Slaanesh due to her revelling in her favourite activity. The point of the GK is to protect humanity from Daemons. Currently that means fighting them, with the final goal of ending the threat. You can't do that if they just come back. His entire existance is futile. He has no purpose and no place and is doomed to forever perform his pointless task because he's trained to, but never actually changing anything.

He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

Yes. He is not longer a Mary Sue if your argument revolves around the Warp wandering.

I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.



Let me note other examples


Justicar Thawn's original fluff has him rising again after being killed by Nkari on Malan'tai. He dies and is revived a few days later. This is the start of his fluff in 5th Ed. In 7th, he is killed and no mention whatsoever of his revival. If he was revived, this is a significant point to be made and would be made, if still canon. He is never mentioned again despite his original incarnation doing many notable feats, such as bursting out from Kugath the Plaguefather's belly, defending a fallen Grand Master alone and unaided against a horde of bloodletters, and many more. If these are never mentioned and nothing is to suggest he revived, can we honestly assume that this is still the case?




Okay, here's better evidence:

In 5th Ed, in his 2nd fight with Mkar it specifies that his "Nemesis Force Sword" was broken by the Reborn. He later defeated a Bloodthirster in the Warp, drove corruption from its axe with purifying flame and reforged his sword with it. While not explicitly stated, this is likely how it became the Titansword, seeing as it was originally just a NFS.

In 7th Ed, the Titansword is an ancient weapon given to the Grey Knights by Malcador, and was passed down through many hands, said to be forged by the Emperor Himself for a Unification War general. Those sorts of stories don't come about without SOME semblence of truth. What we know for fact is that its an almighty weapon and extremely ancient. Meaning it was already the Titansword when he fought Mkar. If he reforged it in the Warp, it would no longer be the Titansword in any capacity. Further supporting this, in 7th Ed Mkar did not break his sword. This means he did not reforge it, if he fought that same Bloodthirster. This means at least one aspect of that fluff has been confirmedly retconned. However, that whole chunk of the fluff no longer exists, so its not canon. Plain and simple. If the next Space Marine codex wrote out the part about Shrike becoming Raven Guard master, leaving only "RG CM dies on X planet," is Shrike still CM? No.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

JK Rowling is a bad one to back up your theory seeing as all she does is retcon and refuse to make new fluff


In response, if JK Rowling was asked to give a brief overview of Harry Potter's entire plot, and stops at the point where , is that a retcon or is that not a retcon? What if she re-releases an anniversary edition of The Deathly Hallows and stops it there? End of the book. Retcon or not a retcon?


Not mentioning is the wrong phrase. Its deliberate omission of a crucial fluff element. That's retcon.

The way I see it - when fluff is trash - it gets discarded.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The way I see it - when fluff is trash - it gets discarded.

That covers most of 40k though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm not seeing why it not being mentioned in an entry makes it non canon. Nothing there indicates it didn't happen.

Okay. Let's break it down.

5th Edition

1. Draigo's original history starts at 799M41, killing Mkar the Reborn. Curse is placed.
2. Draigo is declared Supreme Grand Master in the field, in 901M41 as Mortarion kills his predecessor. He defeats Mortarion.
3. Draigo goes to meet Mkar the Reborn in 999M41 on Acralem. The curse kicks in and he is trapped in the Warp.
4. He wanders the Warp for undisclosed amounts of time, popping out at different times to battle alongside new Grey Knights. This suggests an M42 timeline.
5. End details with typical "He is trapped but will prevail"

Start of 7th Edition (way before Gathering Storm and Guilliman and M42 is permitted by the GW hierarchy)

1. Draigo does a bunch of awesome stuff as most named characters do. Details of his rise through the ranks.
2. Draigo kills Mkar the Reborn, 799M41
3. Draigo defeats Mortarion, 901M41
4. Draigo defeats Mkar the Reborn, 999M41, sucked into Warp.
5 End details with "Maybe one day, Draigo will return."


Sounds like a retcon to me.

Not really. He gets sucked into Warp and then wanders. Nothing stopping it.

Nope, nothing stopping that. But does he slaughter Daemons, tear down mazes, burn gardens, kill anything? Nope, because its gone from the fluff. I doubt they'd remove that if it wasn't retconned. Why leave out big points like that if not retconned. Yeah, he wanders. Doing what? At this point, we don't know. Any new player who never experienced 5th Ed fluff will be ignorant of it, and as far as they are concerned, it never happened. That is the fluff GW wish to present to new players, so clearly, that is the fluff they wish to present to everyone. No Warp shenanigans.

But that doesn't alter the fact that is the fluff. Not mentioning isn't equal to removing. If J.K Rowling summarises Harry Potter Books 1-3 that doesn't mean the others no longer exist it just means she hasn't mentioned them.

If GW want to present new fluff then they need to make new fluff.

JK Rowling is a bad one to back up your theory seeing as all she does is retcon and refuse to make new fluff


In response, if JK Rowling was asked to give a brief overview of Harry Potter's entire plot, and stops at the point where

Spoiler:

Voldemort murder-spells him in the Forbidden Woods and he does that weird Dumbledore purgatory scene

, is that a retcon or is that not a retcon? What if she re-releases an anniversary edition of The Deathly Hallows and stops it there? End of the book. Retcon or not a retcon?


Not mentioning is the wrong phrase. Its deliberate omission of a crucial fluff element. That's retcon.

If the rerelease is explicitly a replacement not an incomplete copy yes. This is an incomplete copy.

Yeah - most of 40k fluff is awful. In fact - most people acknowledge the fact that most every source we read from in 40k is essentially propaganda in some way shape or form.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
He has a list of things he can and has done akin to a that of a young child's description of their father; a while into a "well, yea, MY DAD..." argument. Plus he is described doing things that should be impossible.
Without the flaws one would expect from an actual character.

Goes through the warp slaughtering everything? Really?
He can got through an entire army of daemons? Several greater deamons at once? Never ran into Kairos, Skarbrand or Magnus?
Not attracting attention or anything.

Edit or the actual Chaos gods?!

1. Nope. Rarely slaughtering an unfortunate pack of Daemons who took a wrong turn at the Maelstrom, or the absolute crazy Khorne Daemons who still bother to pursue him.
2. Nope, never done that. Never several GD at once either. Ran into Kairos when he was a newbie, Kairos couldn't touch him because he was destined to face Mkar. Magnus was too busy moping around the Planet of Sorcerors. Skarband is a slaughterer, he's got better things to do than kill 1 guy.
3: He did at the start, they gave up trying to kill him.

Chaos Gods know he's there. They don't care. He's a minor annoyance at best. Why kill him? Have him trapped in the Warp and the GK will forever be without a leader. Kill him they elect a new one and become stronger. He's a pest, not a threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out the whole wandering the Warp thing has BEEN COMPLETELY RETCONNED. The last codex fluff ends his entry with being sucked in the Warp. It never happened. Declared non-canon.

Oh! It got so bad they retconned him.

Well, I guess I can retcon my thinking he's a Mary Sue then.

Yes. He is not longer a Mary Sue if your argument revolves around the Warp wandering.

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

 Deadshot wrote:

This retc9nning I've already mentioned and I'm gonna bring it up again because people like to ignore things.

First off, Mortarion isnt a Primarch but a Daemon Primarch. So many advantages, but also limitations come with that. In particular, Draigo was armed with the name the Emperor intended for him, which became his True Name. True names are the most powerful weapon against a Daemon. It can used to enslave or bind a Daemon against its will and to your own, or in this case, stun Mortarion long enough to strike him down. Another disadvantage being that he's weak to words of banishment and Daemonbane weaponry like every other Daemon.

Finally, Draigo has a destiny. There is a story in 7th Ed codex and I cant pick it out because my copy is 100 miles away, but if someone can cite it for me please that'd be great. In this story, a Lord of Change (Fateweaver maybe?) launches invasion and it is Draigo, as a lowly Battle Brother, who survives to cut down the Daemon where all others; captains, paladins, terminators,are cut down around him. The exact reason being that the Daemon couldnt see him, appearing as "a black shadow across its vision" because "his life was promised to another." Draigo's fate in the warp was bound to Mkar and so, no other Daemon is able to kill him. Not Fateweaver and not Mortarion either, because destiny is a real thing in the Warp and it is binding.


This also feeds into Draigo's inability to be killed or corrupted by the Warp. As his fate is tied to Mkar, and Mkar was given True Death by another's hand, Draigo's fate is left in tatters and unable to break the curse.

But none of that was in the original version of events. Initially, he was simply a super powered Mary Sue who was just sooooo awesome because Matt Ward. That hatred has held on no matter how they've tried to flesh him out and make things better. He left a bad taste in many people's mouths and GW working overtime on PR just goes to show how terrible his initial version was. Two codexes and a short story still haven't made him liked. First impressions do count, and his was awful.

Personally, I think I still have far more rage for Khorne Knights, but Dragio certainly didn't make me giddy with glee and joy. His model was nice, but pretty much all the Grey Knight models are. About the only model I'm less likely to take is Rowboat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

HAVE YOU SEEN MY SWORD!!!!

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

I disagree, this arguement might hold water if you where talking about the Ultramarines hate. but yeh Dragio IS kinda badly written. he's a bit over the top. mind you 40k is always a bit rediculas so I don't mind it, but there are valid reasons to complain about dragio

Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

That's not true in any way.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Draigo has suffered negative consequences though. If one was to go by 5th Edition fluff he's trapped in the Warp doing nothing of any importance because he pissed of a Daemon too much. He's possibly the greatest Grey Knight ever but he can hardly do anything to help the Imperium. If anything he'd have just been another pawn in the Great Game, directed by one or another of the Ruinous Powers towards their enemies. Mary sue's are supposed to achieve great things but Draigo is restricted from that by his Sisyphean task.

Also he's great at smashing Daemons so skillful as a Psyker and a warrior but I don't know if his skill at other areas is ever demonstrated. Maybe leadership?

And again I'm putting cut off from humanity as a negative especially as Space Marines crave brotherhood.

I think Draigo might be a cautionary tale of the power of the warp.

In the warp metaphor is real. As the paragon Grey Knight, Draigo had immersed himself in the warp; having unmatched knowledge, everything of his essence was to battle and defeat daemons.

Unfortunately, his affinity with the warp grew too extreme, and now it dominates him; he is now forever immersed in the warp battling daemons.

I almost feel like Draigo's story is the start of a back story to a daemon prince of Malice (-the incarnation of the self loathing/self destructive aspect of chaos) or even Malice himself!?

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That doesn't make him a Mary Sue. That just makes him the best Grey Knight at his job, really.

I mean.. in a universe with no shortage of Mary Sues, Grey Knights are pretty close to the top of the heap on their own, even without Kaldor Draigo's retconned exploits.

Not saying that's terrible or it's 'wrong' to like GK's, but it is what it is.

Non-retconned he's still not a Mary Sue. It's a situation I'll repeat from my first post in this thread. The complainers about Draigo are mostly SM players that are angry that the Chapter Master from their favorite unknown founding Chapter with a "tragic" story doesn't get attention. It's because nobody cares about them. These are the Grey Knights we are talking about.
No other army user I can think of I know has anything negative to say about Draigo, because each army has basically an equivalent. It's oddly only older SM players. Usually those that hate Matt Ward because.

I disagree, this arguement might hold water if you where talking about the Ultramarines hate. but yeh Dragio IS kinda badly written. he's a bit over the top. mind you 40k is always a bit rediculas so I don't mind it, but there are valid reasons to complain about dragio

He's not over the top for what he is. Grey Knights are super Space Marines, and Draigo is the supreme commander of those super Space Marines. What else are you expecting? Him to be bad at his job?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Being the best at something doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Having no flaws (or 'flaws' that are actually advantageous), being the best at everything (instead of one/two specific areas of skill), and never suffering negative consequences from their actions or drawbacks from their strengths is what defines a Mary Sue.

Bingo. He's a supreme Space Marine that specializes in fighting Daemons. He's trapped in the Warp and staying alive but not really doing anything else.

So what makes this a Mary Sue? That he's not dead yet?

He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

I'm glad they retconned him. I always wondered what he ate and when he slept in the warp. A Space marine needs to both eat and sleep. The longest active period any SM went without sleep and nourishment was supposedly Captain Cortez of the crimson fists. His recorded lies on 6 weeks (42days). I assume it nearly killed him. Draio would litteraly have to eat chaos and rest (both of his brain halves) at some point. Removing the ridicilous warp stuff sounds much better.

Old Draigo of 5th ed was the Mary Suest Mary Sue the ever Mary Sued. Now he seems more plausible.

 Nerak wrote:
I'm glad they retconned him. I always wondered what he ate and when he slept in the warp. A Space marine needs to both eat and sleep. The longest active period any SM went without sleep and nourishment was supposedly Captain Cortez of the crimson fists. His recorded lies on 6 weeks (42days). I assume it nearly killed him. Draio would litteraly have to eat chaos and rest (both of his brain halves) at some point. Removing the ridicilous warp stuff sounds much better.

Old Draigo of 5th ed was the Mary Suest Mary Sue the ever Mary Sued. Now he seems more plausible.

Dude lives in the warp. The warp is a weird place.

I never minded him. I just see him as a tribute to Samurai Jack and it lets me gloss over the dumber things.

Hah! I'd never thought of Draigo as a Daemon Prince of Malice before

Also, as far as i'm concerned Anakin did precisely what he was prophesised to do: bring balance to the force. The Jedi mistakenly believed that meant 'make everyone good', but balance means an equal amout of good and bad. The Jedi were dominant, so the Sith needed to rise to being balance.