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I very much agree that RW and Legion represent FFG branching out into new territory, namely hobby-oriented miniatures gaming.

 MLaw wrote:
I started to reply again about this being a boardgame.. but I re-read the elevator pitch in the first post

Fantasy Flight Games is proud to announce Star Wars™: Legion, a new miniatures game of infantry battles that invites you to join iconic heroes and villains, lead your troopers into battle, and battle for the fate of the Star Wars galaxy. With Star Wars: Legion, you can build and paint a unique army of miniatures. You can command your troops in battle and devise masterful tactics. And you can conquer your opponent’s army to bring victory to the light side or the dark side!

With thirty-three unpainted and easily assembled miniatures, and all the cards, movement tools, tokens, and terrain that you need for battle, the Star Wars: Legion Core Set is the perfect way to bring Star Wars battles to your tabletop.

In contrast, the FFG description for IA identifies that product pretty explicitly as a board game

Imperial Assault is a strategy board game of tactical combat and missions for two to five players, offering two distinct games of battle and adventure in the Star Wars™ universe..

and further down referencing the pieces as figures rather than miniatures.

Once a mission begins, players alternate activating a single figure or squad of figures. Each figure receives two actions to move, attack, open doors, investigate crates for useful supplies, or rest to recover strain and damage.

The entire description reads that way.
While it might seem like semantics.. I personally believe that Legion is meant to be not only a new product, but an entirely different approach (insofar as that can be said).

Giving FFG the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they wanted to take IA in a direction that those mechanics and the entire design philosophy simply would not allow for. Moreover, the emphasis placed on building and painting miniatures vs. the IA figures that were for the most part ready to go... To me that says the two products are meant to be aimed at different audiences, both from the style of play and the nature of the figures and miniatures respectively.

I agree with most of this, but the Legion figures are pretty much the same just larger. A IA Stormtrooper that's one piece isn't really different, or "a new kind of miniature/experience" then a Legion storm trooper where you stick one of its arms in a special shaped socket and glue it. They are not modular, and they are made from the same stuff IA is. Same exact stuff as rune wars.

At best, FFG is doing a lite miniature hobby game.

I completely disagree. It makes no sense to label a mini game "lite" because the miniatures don't have X amount of pieces to assemble. Even GW models used to be mostly single-piece metals, something that is true for a great deal of miniatures gaming beyond 40k even today. GW miniatures have been getting increasingly complicated to assemble and ornately detailed but that doesn't make everything else "lite."

What's the difference from that and what Mantic's been doing lately or Privateer Press? I've got a Cygnar battlegroup sitting on my desk and it's literally a no brainer. A lot of GW kits could be described that way too. A body with 2 or 3 tabbed pieces that slot in very specifically. Actually, quite a lot of GW kits have gone that way to be honest.

I would also like to point out that unless you've seen something we haven't.. the kits haven't been revealed.. or at least I haven't seen them in this thread. Even if they had.. we're talking about starter products. That's like assuming that the new 40k Primaris kits were all going to be that goofy easy build layout from the starter boxes. Until individual units are released we really don't know where they're going with it.

EDIT: For future reference, can we get your standards for what quailfies as a miniatures game. I mean.. lord forbid the companies that are producing the products.. and therefore determining what they are should actually try to pass something off as miniatures.. when it is clearly categorized as a miniature lite product. You should release the metrics for this to the rest of us plebes so we can be informed and not bamboozled by the evil companies..

str00dles1 wrote:
I agree with most of this, but the Legion figures are pretty much the same just larger. A IA Stormtrooper that's one piece isn't really different, or "a new kind of miniature/experience" then a Legion storm trooper where you stick one of its arms in a special shaped socket and glue it. They are not modular, and they are made from the same stuff IA is. Same exact stuff as rune wars.

At best, FFG is doing a lite miniature hobby game.

Well, if that's the requirement, then Robotech RPG Tactics is the hobbiest miniature game ever

OTOH, "stick this piece in this special shaped socket" is exactly what Infinity does, nowadays.

MLaw, I'm afraid I can't show any pics or anything, but with the possible exception of the walker, the rest of the minis on the starter box are not poseable, there's just one way of assembling them.

 Albertorius wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
I agree with most of this, but the Legion figures are pretty much the same just larger. A IA Stormtrooper that's one piece isn't really different, or "a new kind of miniature/experience" then a Legion storm trooper where you stick one of its arms in a special shaped socket and glue it. They are not modular, and they are made from the same stuff IA is. Same exact stuff as rune wars.

At best, FFG is doing a lite miniature hobby game.

Well, if that's the requirement, then Robotech RPG Tactics is the hobbiest miniature game ever

OTOH, "stick this piece in this special shaped socket" is exactly what Infinity does, nowadays.

MLaw, I'm afraid I can't show any pics or anything, but with the possible exception of the walker, the rest of the minis on the starter box are not poseable, there's just one way of assembling them.

Ah, gotcha. Again though.. it's a starter box. If everyone judged GW based on their starter box kits.. well.. they might get slapped with that Hobby Lite label (still waiting for the specifications on that from Str00dles)

 Manchu wrote:
I very much agree that RW and Legion represent FFG branching out into new territory, namely hobby-oriented miniatures gaming.

But is this a long term venture? Is this something they will keep releasing minis for? Or are just pumping something out for quick cash grab and then let it fall to the wayside in favor of more long term projects?

 ProtoClone wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I very much agree that RW and Legion represent FFG branching out into new territory, namely hobby-oriented miniatures gaming.

But is this a long term venture? Is this something they will keep releasing minis for? Or are just pumping something out for quick cash grab and then let it fall to the wayside in favor of more long term projects?

The same can be asked of any gaming release, though. When GW released Silver Tower, it looked like it was going to be a one-off. We started seeing rumors of a Death expansion, but that never came to fruition. Then they released Shadows over Hammerhal and we again started thinking "Warhammer Quest" was going to be a new gaming line ala Bloodbowl, but we haven't seen anything for it since. I fully agree that this game will live or die based on how well FFG supports it, but that isn't a unique characteristic of FFG releases.

I'm concerned about the diversity of ground units available.

The Rebels have almost nothing in the original trilogy.

Even the Empire really only has two walkers, hoverbikes, dewbacks, and storm troopers with different uniforms.

@Protoclone

X-Wing has been around since 2011, with strong support throughout. All else being equal, I would not be surprised if the same applied to Legion.

 EnTyme wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I very much agree that RW and Legion represent FFG branching out into new territory, namely hobby-oriented miniatures gaming.

But is this a long term venture? Is this something they will keep releasing minis for? Or are just pumping something out for quick cash grab and then let it fall to the wayside in favor of more long term projects?

The same can be asked of any gaming release, though. When GW released Silver Tower, it looked like it was going to be a one-off. We started seeing rumors of a Death expansion, but that never came to fruition. Then they released Shadows over Hammerhal and we again started thinking "Warhammer Quest" was going to be a new gaming line ala Bloodbowl, but we haven't seen anything for it since. I fully agree that this game will live or die based on how well FFG supports it, but that isn't a unique characteristic of FFG releases.

Yeah, this is true. The problem with this is it is Star Wars and based during the GCW. As others have pointed out, the prequels had a better representation of ground battles than GCW did. There will need to be some hand waiving to keep this going. But how long will they want to keep that up? GW is invested in their own mythos...FFG is only invested because it makes them money and doesn't require as much work.

They will have to get creative with some expansions, like a Bothan specialist/stealth squad, commandered or converted vehicles etc. Seraph landspeeder is an option, or any speeder the rebel can strap with a gun. The rebels will probably shine through various alien characters and variants though. There are also various looks for rebel troops, depending on what planet they are on.

Rebel species forces can be an elite choice, and FFG has been known to use Star Wars Galaxies assets. There is a heavy rebel armor style they could use plus the battle armor.

Imperials have more options like darktroopers (which had 3 different kinds I believe) and cloaking shadow troopers. Deathtroopers will likely be a more rare and costly choice. Sniper squads are also possible, stormtroopers on tatooine were seen with heavier rifles.

FFG is kind of slow with releases compared to GW, so i'd expect to be playing with little beyond the core set for a few months in early 2018 unless they plan on a more aggressive schedule. And while the resin masters used at the demo tables looked good i'm not convinced the plastic production models are going to be good enough.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
I'm concerned about the diversity of ground units available.

The Rebels have almost nothing in the original trilogy.

Even the Empire really only has two walkers, hoverbikes, dewbacks, and storm troopers with different uniforms.

I mean.. it's a wargame.. infantry is always going to be a bit repetitive.
That said.. the differences aren't just the uniforms. The heavy blasters are like a heavy machine gun. Regular blasters are like infantry rifles.

Endor and Hoth are the two big engagements in the original trilogy. There were also scenes in a few other places, namely the boarding actions and the Bespin sequence. There were also a few glimpses at other capabilities/units on Yavin and Tatooine.
Looking at it purely from the films (we already know that they are pulling from outside the films.. ie.. AT-RT).
Both sides have heavy assault units, heavy weapons, beast mounted (there are Taun-Taun like beasts for other climates), droids, exotic weapons, commandos, demolitions experts, and standard and light infantry/scouts.
It's very likely that there will be jump infantry. If anything the Battlefront games have solidified these. Use of non-human species in GCW empire is rare. For Rebels not so much.. they're everywhere.

Imperial Units
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army/Legends

Alliance Units
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alliance_Army

Imperials have deathtroopers (elite) and shoretroopers (lightly armoured), plus scout troopers, even if, as seems likely, we will only see stuff from the current canon rather than the old EU. There's also Imperial Navy troopers (aka "Death Star Troopers" -- the guys with the wide black helmets). Various officers could have different command effects. Be good to see Thrawn and Tarkin, at least, if this is set around the Rebels / A New Hope / ESB era as seems likely.

Rebels are a bit less interesting but could certainly have assorted commando, sniper, and spy type units, a la Rogue One, as well as allied forces and pseudo-Jedi like Chirrut. The rebels are also alien-friendly, of course, unlike the Empire. Even just including alien species that can be seen in the above four sources you could add a dozen or more extra troop types easily

I'm hoping there's no flyers per se but having rules for dropship assaults would be cool.

 Manchu wrote:
I completely disagree. It makes no sense to label a mini game "lite" because the miniatures don't have X amount of pieces to assemble. Even GW models used to be mostly single-piece metals, something that is true for a great deal of miniatures gaming beyond 40k even today. GW miniatures have been getting increasingly complicated to assemble and ornately detailed but that doesn't make everything else "lite."

Having just painted a couple of Runewars miniatures, I think I'm completely on board with calling it a "lite" miniatures game. In fact, I'd argue that it is one of its biggest selling points (same with Mantic's Walking Dead). I imagine that Legion will be in a similar vein.

 Thargrim wrote:
They will have to get creative with some expansions, like a Bothan specialist/stealth squad, commandered or converted vehicles etc. Seraph landspeeder is an option, or any speeder the rebel can strap with a gun. The rebels will probably shine through various alien characters and variants though. There are also various looks for rebel troops, depending on what planet they are on.

Rebel species forces can be an elite choice, and FFG has been known to use Star Wars Galaxies assets. There is a heavy rebel armor style they could use plus the battle armor.

Imperials have more options like darktroopers (which had 3 different kinds I believe) and cloaking shadow troopers. Deathtroopers will likely be a more rare and costly choice. Sniper squads are also possible, stormtroopers on tatooine were seen with heavier rifles.

FFG is kind of slow with releases compared to GW, so i'd expect to be playing with little beyond the core set for a few months in early 2018 unless they plan on a more aggressive schedule. And while the resin masters used at the demo tables looked good i'm not convinced the plastic production models are going to be good enough.

On a per faction basis, FFG is MUCH faster than GW at releasing product. Star Wars X-Wing has been around since 2012 and is up to Wave 11. Star Wars Armada is only 2+ years old and just announced Wave 7. That's 7 waves of releases, with some releases having multiple products for each faction. How many different times have new Necron products come out in the last two years? Definitely not 7. I know Necrons got a ton of stuff during 5th Edition... but what did they really get during 6th? ...7th?

GW is great at cranking out new miniatures, but they're garbage at supporting existing factions with timely product releases. I would argue that GW has one of the worst release schedules of any table top gaming company out there if you're only interested in specific factions.

@Sqorgar

I have no doubt that FFG has a huge, huge interest in portraying RW and Legion as easier to get into than most miniature gaming. But it's not really true, just as a matter of miniatures. Consider the vast amount of cheap, one piece metal WW2 miniatures that make up a huge part of actual miniatures gaming.

 Manchu wrote:
@Sqorgar

I have no doubt that FFG has a huge, huge interest in portraying RW and Legion as easier to get into than most miniature gaming. But it's not really true, just as a matter of miniatures. Consider the vast amount of cheap, one piece metal WW2 miniatures that make up a huge part of actual miniatures gaming.

It's not just the number of parts though. The miniatures themselves are designed to be easy to paint. Their designs are built around 4 primary colors, with details being rather sparse and large - you don't need a size 0 brush to paint anything in Runewars. I'd wager that's why Legion is a bigger scale than Imperial Assault - IA wasn't meant to be painted.

The delineation of a miniatures game into "lite" and "not-lite"(?) is fairly arbitrary - if you disagree that there should be a "lite" designation in the first place, I disagree, but I get where you are coming from. If you are saying that RW/Legion shouldn't be considered "lite" because there are other more "lite" games out there, I guess we'd get into a debate about whether something like Privateer Press or Corvus Belli and their contemporaries represent the standard by which we judge something else "lite" - or whether it is historicals or whatever.

But for my money, I see it as a spectrum:

Board Games (pre-assembled, no painting required or expected)
Lite Miniature Games (easy or no assembly, few details/colors, unpainted or tabletop quality is the expectation)
Miniature Games (requires knowledge of glue/plastic types, specialized tools/brushes, tabletop quality paint job would be the bare minimum)
High End Miniature Games (even grunts require a minimum of 32 different paint pots, Golden Demon is the expectation, $185 kits 3' tall)

I think, at the very least, we can rule out the High End for Legion.

lol.. wait.. so now.. it's not about how many parts the model is.. or if there's special sockets for the pieces.. it's about .. how well you paint? WTF?
I've seen Reaper Bones painted up to a level I could never achieve.. regardless of whatever model I'm painting it on.

The next person will come along and tell us "no no no, it's about how many sprues are in the box" or "it's about how much you pay per ounce of material / number of components * coeffecient of the types of clippers required".

A miniature game.. is a game you play with miniatures. Period.
Assigning more or less value based on either the MSRP or size of the models does nobody in this hobby any favors. Boutique miniatures (which is that so called hi-end) are typically NOT intended for actual gaming but are typically made for high end painters/competitions/show pieces. Given that I used to hang out with a GD winner.. who would do everything he could to make cheap units look like they were expensive.. your idea is entirely in your own head.

Most WW2 infantry ranges consist of one-piece metal models and they are extremely easy to paint. Most fictional miniature lines are designed to be easy to paint, too, not just Runewars. This not only makes them more marketable in terms of ease of painting but also helps distinguish factions. Warlord, Mantic, Privateer Press all do this. GW invented it. GW is founded on the easy-to-paint Space Marine figure.

I think there are two elements at work here. On the one hand, you have a marketing angle from FFG, trying to lure in people who are otherwise intimidated by the hobby aspects of miniatures gaming. And on the other hand, you have some snobbishness on the part of established miniatures gamers.

 Sqorgar wrote:
High End Miniature Games (even grunts require a minimum of 32 different paint pots, Golden Demon is the expectation, $185 kits 3' tall)

Out of curiosity, which game is this?

There's board games that are so much more complex than anything a wargamer would touch. But yes, board "miniature" games are seen as simplistic.

If board focused miniature games are seen as simplistic, it's because there's a glut of manufacturers out there pumping out games with really banal rules.

I kinda get what sqorgar is saying. When my gamer but non minis-gamer friends see pics of space marines or warjacks, their immediate reaction is 'i could never do that in a million years.' They think its funny that there are sprue shots on the GW site. But when i showed them RW pics they had a more measured reaction. They still think its hard as hell but 'those look easier.' I'm hoping Legion pushes them over the edge.

Worth noting that they're actually more into 40k lore than star wars. They played the video games and read all the books, but for them the minis are for fine arts graduates.

MLaw wrote:lol.. wait.. so now.. it's not about how many parts the model is.. or if there's special sockets for the pieces.. it's about .. how well you paint? WTF?

Miniature gaming is, in addition to being a game, also a hobby - and different games require/request different levels of involvement in that hobby. Runewars is on the light side of that. It isn't about any one thing, but a culmination of intent and multiple different practices. I would say designing a character around 4 primary colors that are on broad, large areas requires a lesser involvement than a character which is built around 8 primary colors, not including the nurgling he is stepping on, the skulls hanging from his belt, and the giant ornate sword which glimmers like lightning in the darkness of the evernothing.

Assigning more or less value based on either the MSRP or size of the models does nobody in this hobby any favors.

With all due respect, I am not arguing value, just involvement - specifically in the hobby aspect, not in any other way.

Manchu wrote:I think there are two elements at work here. On the one hand, you have a marketing angle from FFG, trying to lure in people who are otherwise intimidated by the hobby aspects of miniatures gaming. And on the other hand, you have some snobbishness on the part of established miniatures gamers.

Well, the intent to market to beginner hobbyists will inform the design quite a bit, wouldn't it? So, if FFG's goal was to create a lite miniature game, we shouldn't be too terribly surprised when they do.

And this isn't snobbishness. Runewars isn't my primary game and I LOVE that it is quick and easy to assemble and paint. I've got a box here with Saint Celestine on my desk, unassembled, because I need to set aside several hours to do it (and I need to get a pair of sharper sprue clippers if I don't want to spend additional time cleaning up the model afterwards). That's to say nothing of the undertaking painting her will be, as a centerpiece model. I'm also in the middle of a batch of Bloodreavers, and the 7-8 different paints I need due to all the extraneous, TINY fething details is driving me nuts. Meanwhile, I'm knocking out four Runewars figures in an hour or two using four pots of paint and a small base brush.

I'll be honest. I have much more room in my life for Legion if it turns out to follow Runewars' example than if the models were more to the average involvement level of Privateer Press or Games Workshop.

 Sqorgar wrote:
High End Miniature Games (even grunts require a minimum of 32 different paint pots, Golden Demon is the expectation, $185 kits 3' tall)

Out of curiosity, which game is this?

That would be Games Workshop (on the higher end).

The only intimidating thing about miniatures gaming that deserves to be intimidating is the dollar and time cost. Painting minis to tabletop standard is, as most mini gamers know, all about learning a few simple techniques. FFG is marketing Runewars as approachable, especially in contrast to the dominant mini game force GW. One aspect of this is how the "studio" miniatures are presented. GW takes great pride in painting up their display/marketing models to a beautiful but (for most of us) unattainable level. They also make instructional videos aimed at selling you dozens of paints and brushes just to paint a single mini. Not so, with Runewars. This is just another illusion. At the end of the day, a Space Marine is no harder to paint than a Daqan spearman.

 ProtoClone wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I very much agree that RW and Legion represent FFG branching out into new territory, namely hobby-oriented miniatures gaming.

But is this a long term venture? Is this something they will keep releasing minis for? Or are just pumping something out for quick cash grab and then let it fall to the wayside in favor of more long term projects?

I don't think people should be quick to expect newer companies like FFG to follow the old Games Workshop model of wargames. Back in the 80s they absolutely wanted Warhammer to thrive as this perennial, flagship product, that would basically exist for as long as they could sell it. And that's what a game like Warmachine was also aiming for when it came out fifteen or so years ago. But companies like FFG, I don't know that their wargames need to be different than their other big projects, and I said the same thing for CMON's new Ice and Fire game. They might do Legion like they did Descent and Imperial Assault, three to four good years, and then it's on to something else. That's their model, that's their way of thinking as a board game company. Even for a game like X-Wing, this hugely popular game that has done tremendous business for them, I think most of us aren't going to be surprised if they're not viewing even X-Wing as some perpetual gaming line the way GW views Warhammer 40K. They're not necessarily going to try and reinvigorate it with new editions and a constantly reworked release line, they don't live or die with X-Wing lasting forever.

They'll definitely milk a selling product for as long as it still is profitable, but I think these "board game" companies are going to follow a product lifespan model that is more familiar to them. And we have to come to expect that these wargames are going to be three or four year things, with different cases upping the average or lowering the average, where they release a full experience and then they're done and on to something else.

FFG better not treat Xwing like a board game. That's their big money maker, and I expect it will never really peter out. Especially since we're never going to see the end of Star Wars movies, and thus material to keep putting into a Star Wars game. Only possible thing that could see FFG stop making Xwing and such is if Disney was to pull the plug on their license, which I again doubt since they're almost literally printing money.

Because I guarantee that if FFG ever did voluntarily drop their most popular game the company's profits would probably vanish overnight. They'd lose most of their customers almost instantly.

 Manchu wrote:
The only intimidating thing about miniatures gaming that deserves to be intimidating is the dollar and time cost. Painting minis to tabletop standard is, as most mini gamers know, all about learning a few simple techniques. FFG is marketing Runewars as approachable, especially in contrast to the dominant mini game force GW. One aspect of this is how the "studio" miniatures are presented. GW takes great pride in painting up their display/marketing models to a beautiful but (for most of us) unattainable level. They also make instructional videos aimed at selling you dozens of paints and brushes just to paint a single mini. Not so, with Runewars. This is just another illusion. At the end of the day, a Space Marine is no harder to paint than a Daqan spearman.

Right, but the illusion is the reality. Besides show pieces, most models are as easy/hard to paint like any other model.

GW sell paints, brushes, and shows vids how to paint them. Most people will do a good job, but never attain the level of the box/book pictures, as that's someone's full time job to paint like that. (Perception - Non lite wargame)

FFG sells no paints or brushes, but with rune wars, shows how to paint, what paints they used and how to get to the average table top level. (perception - lite war game)

GW to FFG minis are plastic, more parts, more options, more details, with a vast array of paints and pictures of paint jobs from a studio.(Perception - non lite wargame) FFG are mostly single pose, soft plastic, less detailed, shown with a few realistic steps to paint their minis (perception - lite war game)

Also is the notion of Warhammer being vastly more complicated then a FFG game. This is the first edition where they simplified a lot of the game, so that's another perception people will have. "GW is complex, FFG is easier" Hence the thought of lite and non lite.

I don't get the rage of why some people saying Legions is a lite war game. Logically its the same as 40k, but that illusion is real.

I'd argue that all those perceptions are from the "hobby" part of the equation instead of the "game" part, and don't bear much if any weight on how "light" or "heavy" a wargame is perceived to be.

That would be the rules, I think. And wether a game is thought to be light or not isn't really a matter of the rules complexity, either. You can have very rules-light games that are perceived as quite "heavy" wargames (OGRE nowadays, for example).

All of the "lite" arguments quickly fall apart when looking at games like Flames of War - or even the last miniatures war game FFG hosted - Dust.

 Stormonu wrote:
All of the "lite" arguments quickly fall apart when looking at games like Flames of War - or even the last miniatures war game FFG hosted - Dust.

Or Age of Sigmar, to name a game by GW that is usually regarded as a "lite" wargame.