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Well, in the old West End Miniatures game, you were able to squeeze a lot of content out of Empire, Rebels, and Freelancers. Just by adding race-based squads alone you can add a lot of rebel variety. Then there are all sorts of Stormie models.... enough to rival the Space Marines of GW.

Plus, if you look in the RPG sourcebooks there are all sorts of factions even within the Empire way back then. Is it any worse then Ad-mech, Space Marines Blue, Space Marines Grey, Space Marines Black, Space Marines Super Special, Astra Militum, Sneaky Imperials, Imperial Women, etc in 40K? Not really.

However, I see this game as having more Lord of the Rings potential than Warhammer 40K type reach. I think you will see this in Barnes and Noble and non-game stores.

Pros. Let's you refight awesome engagements like the Tantive boarding action or Hoth. Cons. Gungans versus battledroids. Or clone troopers versus battledroids or any of the other godawful "let's line up across an open plain and hammer our faces into each other"...

Recently rewatched the prequel trilogy. Reminded myself how godawful they are...

Considering that the terrain rules were better than 40k 8th edition's already, open fields aren't going to be an issue with this game.

In early demos they were doing a simplified cover system where the barricades were the only cover, at -1 hit. However, I noticed in wargaming youtube videos covering the game in depth they had those barricades negate two hits, and light woods/vegetation negate 1.

 Flinty wrote:
Pros. Let's you refight awesome engagements like the Tantive boarding action or Hoth. Cons. Gungans versus battledroids. Or clone troopers versus battledroids or any of the other godawful "let's line up across an open plain and hammer our faces into each other"...

Recently rewatched the prequel trilogy. Reminded myself how godawful they are...

Do yourself a favor and wash the taste out of your mouth with the Clone Wars animated series. Its amazing, and makes a better Prequel Saga than those three turd movies.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Pros. Let's you refight awesome engagements like the Tantive boarding action or Hoth. Cons. Gungans versus battledroids. Or clone troopers versus battledroids or any of the other godawful "let's line up across an open plain and hammer our faces into each other"...

Recently rewatched the prequel trilogy. Reminded myself how godawful they are...

Do yourself a favor and wash the taste out of your mouth with the Clone Wars animated series. Its amazing, and makes a better Prequel Saga than those three turd movies.

Or do what I did, cope with years of denial and scotch!

Clone Wars really was much better than it had any right to be, even early on, before it hits its stride.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Do yourself a favor and wash the taste out of your mouth with the Clone Wars animated series. Its amazing, and makes a better Prequel Saga than those three turd movies.

If they made a Durge model, I'd probably buy it just to paint it.

What I'd like to see to combat the idea of limited factions is a series of sub-factions, much as Infinity does sectorials really. You could have limited availability of certain troop types of vehicles depending one which part of the army you were building into. They're long out of date, but I always liked the way the West End Games sourcebooks described the organisation of both the Alliance and the Empire. I think I'd probably go for something like this:

Rebel Alliance

Alliance Sector Command - this would be a 'normal' army, with a spread of unit qualities and decent access to older vehicles etc. What we've seen in the demos, basically
Alliance SpecForce - troops retained directly by Alliance High Command, these guys would be an elite army, with every unit highly statted for its role but not particularly multi-talented. The WEG sourcebook lists unit types as Infiltrators, Marines, Pathfinders, Urban Guerillas, Wilderness Fighters & Heavy Weapon specialists. They would probably have limited vehicle support
Alliance Intelligence Cell - mostly irregular forces with perhaps a small number of commando units as backup. I like the idea of 'civilian protestors' who can lay traps etc

Galactic Empire

Stormtrooper Corps - featuring the whole gamut of the boys in white, scouts, zero-G troops, the whole lot. No vehicles larger than a speeder bike to reinforce their fast assault role
Imperial Army/Navy - The basic troopers, this would be the subfaction to go for if you want an armoured assault, with little in the way of elite infantry but above average access to AT-STs
Imperial Intelligence - I wasn't really sure where to go with the third Imperial option, but I think this one would be interesting. You've essentially got 3 areas to look at - the ISB (& COMPNOR), the Ubiqtorate and the Inquisitorius. I think this could work with COMPNOR assault squads as poorly trained yet fanatical infantry backing up teams of intelligence agents and squads of force-using minor Inquisitors as seen in the Rebels cartoon

I mean, it won't happen, but that's how I'd do it.

An brigade of Alderaan expats who joined up with the Rebellion after their planet was blown up could be an interesting force to play as...

I definitely hope they release a '77 white helmet/blue vest Rebel squad.

"Alderaan Defense Force Veteran" could be an upgrade title.

Aaaand I just realized that yeah, all those guys would be from Alderaan since they're Leia's Organa's guards.

Mind blown.

I'm surprised at how much clamor there is for more than two factions given that we already have two Star Wars miniature games from FFG and know exactly how many factions they are planning to do and from what timeframe.

Hopefully they do well selling the personality of the setting, I feel like you can't lose the adventure and the sense of big personalities, because that's how Star Wars fulfills the Rule of Cool.

Yeah, two factions but you can do a lot with them. Just look at the Star Wars Universe with just two factions.

So, how long until we get the Star Trek ground combat game? LOL.

The two factions of Star Wars have a lot more variety than all the factions of 40k if they want to.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Yeah, I'm not seeing this take off.

Care to take a wager, sir?

I wonder if this will take off at my local store. X-Wing didn't. We're pretty focused on 40k, so it'll be interesting if it stands a chance. It's not like we're hurting for people who like Star Wars.

I can definitely see how the better model quality and diversity of 40k speaks to the established wargamers, though. I like those Stormtroopers. Nothing in Star Wars beats classic Stormtroopers. I might buy a box just to have a squad of them, but obviously I hope I'd get in a game or two with them as well.

So for me, I honestly hope Legion is competition for 40k, because otherwise I'll never have much incentive to buy the game.

I...

I just hope they give me a box of Alderaanian Navy Troopers. I just want to paint those poor buggers.

 Manchu wrote:
I definitely hope they release a '77 white helmet/blue vest Rebel squad.

"Alderaan Defense Force Veteran" could be an upgrade title.

I thought Alderaan was a peaceful planet, with no weapons

On second thought, that's probably why the rebels on the Tantive IV were the only ones to lose to Stormtroopers - they were all Alderaanians, and that was the first time they'd picked up a gun.

--------------------

On a serious note, there's tons of stuff to draw from for both sides from the old RPGs and video games. Wouldn't mind buying an imperial hovertank like from the Star Wars Battlefront game (or Rogue One). Or putting together a bounty hunter force to hunt some rebels.

 Pacific wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Yeah, I'm not seeing this take off.

Care to take a wager, sir?

What odds can I get for not as good as Armada, but a lot better than Runewars? And what's the vig? Don't try to overvig me!

frankelee wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Yeah, I'm not seeing this take off.

Care to take a wager, sir?

What odds can I get for not as good as Armada, but a lot better than Runewars? And what's the vig? Don't try to overvig me!

I'd actually say fair odds... I am finding that Armada is just that touch too much a "thinking man's game" than the usual FFG fair. There are always meaningful choices to make, and it very much doesn't play itself at any stage, which I suspect is part of why it is less successful than X-wing. Among more casual gamers at least around here, Armada died, but those who stuck with it found it incredibly rewarding.

I suspect Legion will ere on the side of "easier" to attract that widest possible audience, ala X-wing. It doesn't mean it will be bad, mind you, but I suspect it will be lighter.

I agree with that appraisal of Armada but I think it goes even deeper. Against a "thinking man" type player, you can very easily lose in deployment, which becomes increasingly apparent over a slow, laborious session. This can be a really negative experience.

 Manchu wrote:
I agree with that appraisal of Armada but I think it goes even deeper. Against a "thinking man" type player, you can very easily lose in deployment, which becomes increasingly apparent over a slow, laborious session. This can be a really negative experience.

I can see that, but I feel like a whole class of miniatures games fall into that category. Many ranked battle games also feel like they're won/lost in deployment and early movement phases. Its part of what I love about this hobby... I love how different games really emphasize different aspects of strategy and tactics.

The problem with most things people try to hold up as possible 40k-killers is that they can't actually compete on the ground where 40k is really strong (quality and breadth of models). The Imperial Assault and the Legions models are fine for what they are, but they're never going to compete with 40k on a meaningful level simply because the miniatures aren't there.

Legion is a different sort of game to 40k. There's always going to be some overlap, sure, but I don't think it's really going to climb the mountain to challenge 40k's market space.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Many ranked battle games also feel like they're won/lost in deployment and early movement phases.

No doubt that's true. The issue with Armada is, you may have already lost but that doesn't make the turns any less complex and thoughtful. I wish Armada was my cup of tea, because in theory it is so neat and thematic. I just had very little fun playing it.

 Manchu wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Many ranked battle games also feel like they're won/lost in deployment and early movement phases.

No doubt that's true. The issue with Armada is, you may have already lost but that doesn't make the turns any less complex and thoughtful. I wish Armada was my cup of tea, because in theory it is so neat and thematic. I just had very little fun playing it.

I've never played Armada, but I've played enough similar games to diagnose what might be wrong: It combines the restricted movement of ranks and flanks or other starship games, with the limited model count of a skirmish game. Skirmish games usually get around the critical import of small model counts by allowing each model to do quite a bit, while limited movement games usually run closer to dozen elements, compared to a handful for Armada.

I'd say you strike close to the heart of the problem. And I love Armada. it just has a steep learning curve, and you have to grind through many games to find something that suits you, or just give up on bad ideas. Like combining 2 Peltas to make an ISD analog for the Rebels. Doesn't work, except in edge cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I miss the fleet feeling of BFG, and I don't quite get it from Armada.

That's kind of the reason why most games don't mess with the phasing.

SWL is a pretty standard heroic scale wargame. Two actions, lots of upgrades, etc.

At the In-Flight at Gencon, FFG basically said they were only doing Original Trilogy for Legions. They didn't use those exact words, but the way they phrased the answer to the question that was posed didn't leave much room for interpretation. That more or less goes for the other Star Wars games as well. They were somewhat hesitant in their answer to the question about a possible third faction, which leads me to believe that they will do some 'subfactions' (i.e. look you can build an entire army of just wookies!) rather than a proper third faction.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think this game might be where they actually test the waters for the Clone Wars material. There wasn't that much in terms of starfighters (I'm only on season one of the cartoon) and the different pilots you have to populate the card deck with. But with the ground troops, I can see it happening.

What??

ARC-170
Fang Fighters (Protectorate Starfighters)
N-1
Clone Z-95
BTL-B Y-Wing
V-Wing
Eta-2 Actis
Delta-7 Aetherspite
Delta-7B Aetherspite
T-6 Class Shuttle
Eta Class Shuttle
The Crucible
Space Gunships (LAAT's for space ops)
Nu-class Transport
Theta class T-2C shuttle
V-19 Torrent

and thats just the Republic side (I'm probably missing a few). Add in the Separatists and others and you get:

Vulture droids
Hyena bombers
droid tri-fighters
Rogue-class starfighters
Belbullab-22
Gnivex-class fanblade fighter
Nantex-class territorial defense fighters
Umbaran starfighters
HH-87 Starhoppers
Kom'rk-class fighters
etc. etc. etc.

There was *plenty* of material for X-Wing.

According to Alex Davey, Legion will be GCW-era "for now" (as opposed to OT-only; keep in mind AT-RT is not from OT).

I'm looking forward to this game.

From a miniatures perspective, the sculpts are good and cleanly sculpted. And they look like they were made specifically with PVC in mind. Also, given that we have only seen resin masters so far, they may scale just fine with Imperial Assault (which has scale inconsistencies within it's own line). We just don't know for sure yet.

The game looks fun. Somewhat light but with some depth, I think.

I'm interested but going to wait to see what expansions come out and how "competitive" different archtypes within each faction shake out to being...

The basics (from watching YouTube demos) seem pretty good, but there will need to be decent variety among the imperial choices (Grand inquisitor, royal guard, etc) before I take the plunge.

Armada has (it seems to me) just now or only relatively recently reached that level that I'm taking another good long look at it... and IA was getting close, but not enough to overcome my dislike of painting.

I'd say there's a decent chance I'll get into it in a year or two (love the universe so much more than 40k) but the initial stages of these games are always too limited for me to really go all in.

And the level of interest at my flgs will also play a role too.