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 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

My main army atm for 8th is Harlequins, they are very strong even without Ynnari, if you are looking at tournaments for result of a good army, Well if you take out IG from tournaments aka Conscript spam you would see a completely different meta.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
SoB are indeed strong on the table (when you see them), but their range seems on life-support. I'd be happy to see new releases for them.

I like my GSC, but they are really IG plus some Genestealers. Nothing wrong with that, but they are a bit niche when you take the IG away. Again, I have no issues with that!

For an army that never been updated, SoB range is larger than some other armies, i'm just saying they are not hurting in the range.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

I play Chaos Space Marines. I believe there should be one, super-customizable Marine codex, and in theory you could roll up most CSM into it (or just make Chaos a "template" you apply on other armies, or do like 2nd/3rd and roll up all Chaos in one codex, rather than the 4e CSM/Daemon split). Extreme? Maybe, but Psyker-heavy Marines aren't unique (Hi Blood Ravens/Exorcists), nor are xenotech super-shooty Marines (hi Mentors/Silver Sharks).

I don't really do soup - I've got daemons with my CSMs but that's always been what Word Bearers are all about and I'm not really interested in adding renegades & heretics - and I've taken some harsh beatings from lists with Talons of the Emperor and a Knight and Scions - but I love how it's an option. We already had it to an extent - Orks always were a Grand Army, Harlequins first redebuted as allies to Craftworlds, Ad Mech and Navy units were just IG auxiliaries, Old One Eye could team up with the Red Terror, etc. What I would like to see is more granular benefits from detachment and even army purity - like an Adeptus Astartes Trait that you can have when taking an Ultramarines and Blood Angels list, but lose if you add a Basilisk and have to accommodate Mordians who aren't trained in the tactics and shorthand Space Marines use.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

I play Chaos Space Marines. I believe there should be one, super-customizable Marine codex, and in theory you could roll up most CSM into it (or just make Chaos a "template" you apply on other armies, or do like 2nd/3rd and roll up all Chaos in one codex, rather than the 4e CSM/Daemon split). Extreme? Maybe, but Psyker-heavy Marines aren't unique (Hi Blood Ravens/Exorcists), nor are xenotech super-shooty Marines (hi Mentors/Silver Sharks).

But that doesnt lessen the factions just the books they are splint into, and now that 1 book is 150$, HUGE like the old FW ones, bloated with rules and fluff most players wont use.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

I play Chaos Space Marines. I believe there should be one, super-customizable Marine codex, and in theory you could roll up most CSM into it (or just make Chaos a "template" you apply on other armies, or do like 2nd/3rd and roll up all Chaos in one codex, rather than the 4e CSM/Daemon split). Extreme? Maybe, but Psyker-heavy Marines aren't unique (Hi Blood Ravens/Exorcists), nor are xenotech super-shooty Marines (hi Mentors/Silver Sharks).

But that doesnt lessen the factions just the books they are splint into, and now that 1 book is 150$, HUGE like the old FW ones, bloated with rules and fluff most players wont use.

Let's be honest, there is a *lot* of copy-paste in the Marine armies. You could easily draw a Venn Diagram of the assorted Marine armies, and you could conclude that:

-Dark Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Bike unit, a +1 Terminator Unit, and a "Heavy Landspeeder." The Nephilim is a NotStormtalon with a few alternate rules, and less weapon variance. Whee.
-Blood Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Jump Pack unit, a "different" Ironclad, and a unique Predator loadout. Why not just go for "Assault Dread, Tactical Dread, Devestator Dread" or some other simple delineation, and give actual options between each kit. Oh right, because Magna Grapples are mutually exclusive with Assault Launchers are exclusive with shields. Because GW thinks "no options" drives sales.
-Black Templar got rolled into vanilla Space Marines because they arguably weren't unique enough, and their "uniqueness" came from being a holdover from 4th edition customizable rules. So now, they're just "that chapter that runs Scouts as meatshields." You know which other Chapter does this, but isn't known for religious fervor? The Iron Snakes. However, they're also known for Apothecary Sergeants, which obviously only the Red Scorpions are allowed to do.
-Space Wolves are a little trickier. Still, you could easily say they're "Chapter Tactics: Counterattack", let their Tacsquads buy Chainswords (but tbt, a tacsquad should just be a BP/Chainsword/Bolter grab-bag across the board. Far simpler that way), and they get some horses. So, add a codex deviation letting them run cavalry/hounds. Remember when they could crew a Russ Exterminator? Add a "trait" letting them "loot" Imperial vehicles at a point markup (think of it as a "cross-codex tax"). On a side note, I dunno about you ut I would definitely enjoy the idea of Hellhound Salamanders. Would make a LOT more thematic/fluff sense than having them in Landspeeders for one (especially given Nocturne is a heavy-G planet).
-Deathwatch are almost entirely "Elite Choices From Marines, and Special Ammo". Other than "mixed squads" (which you don't want to do), and the Corvus Blackstar, you could run a vanilla Marine Vanguard detachment and you wouldn't notice the difference, except for the fact Special Ammo was explicitly made Deathwatch-Only ("They're not armed with Special-Issue Ammo, they're using Special-Issue Bolters."). You'd think Special Ammo would be a purchasable option...except for the fact said ammo wasn't the reason you took Sternguard, so much as for the mass Combi-Meltas. So, rebalance the Special Ammo or other costs.
-So this leaves Grey Knights. "Power Armor & Storm Bolter Marines." Sure, whatever. Add some extra doctrines for superior equipment loadouts if you want, up costs accordingly. Maybe rules for a "Psychically Gifted" mutation or so. Let them *buy* this loadout, but it adds up. Then again, considering that "Grey Knight" armies nowadays boil down to "Draigo, some Interceptors, and Conscripts" or so...

Very broadly speaking, I'm a 'more the merrier' bloke.

The more factions, the more variety of opponents. And that means more challenges. My army might naturally ROFLstomp certain armies, but be the proverbial Red Headed Stepchild for other armies, who'll walk all over my dudes.

But......each has to have its own niche. If you add Army Q to armies A-P, there's no power not doing so if it offers the same experience as Army E.

It also falls flat if say, Armies A-D are all super flexible within their own book.

I'm more for difference in variety. I wouldn't mind if there was sa 20 factions that all played differently, but when you have 29 factions and at least 8 of them are some variant on the basic Bolter Marine with special rules from the remaining 21 mixed in, then it gets kinda repetitive.

Enough... is never enough!
There is no such thing as too much factions. Variety is the spice of life as they say. I also have no problem with supplementary codices. I think the problem is with people viewing those as full 'armies'. A codex like 7th edition Militarum Tempestus or the Harlequins however was never meant to be a standalone army. They were meant to be used as supporting elements for existing armies.

As to the Marine codices, BA and DA could be rolled into the main SM codex, but this would be unnecessarily complicated as they both have a lot of special units and rules that need to be preserved and there would be less room for fluff and future developments. Also, it would bloat the size of the SM codex to the point where GW would probably need to make it more expensive, which would lead to all sorts of complaining.
SW and GK are simply too different, they only share a few units in common with the SM codex.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm more for difference in variety. I wouldn't mind if there was sa 20 factions that all played differently, but when you have 29 factions and at least 8 of them are some variant on the basic Bolter Marine with special rules from the remaining 21 mixed in, then it gets kinda repetitive.

Not an unfair comment. But given Space Marines are and always have been popular, I find having various different flavours helps break up that monotony.

Many of the 'new' factions have been either unable to stand on their own, or have about three total unit types. It would make more sense to roll them together than to sell separate books for a faction of three choices, at least in my opinion.

It's an aesthetic thing for me, really. I like the Death Guard release because the Death Guard units are a fundamentally different aesthetic than baseline CSM; they're as different as Eldar and Drukhari are, in my view. I have a harder time justifying the various SM factions that look basically the same on the table (I'd probably give Deathwatch, Space Wolves and Grey Knights a pass on this but otherwise... eh).

On the other hand, I think the ship has sailed on factions like Blood Angels having enough things unique to them that trying to roll them back into the baseline codex would cause more issues than it solves.

I think making certain sub-factions (TSons, DG, major SM chapters) into their own, self-sufficient Codex armies is great. That is definitely assuming that they have enough unique rules and units to set them apart from their forebears, however.

Half measures that end up breaking apart armies into pieces that can barely function on their own, or that are extremely subtle variations on their vanilla parents, are horrible.

There are certainly plenty of examples of both the former and the latter.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

I play Chaos Space Marines. I believe there should be one, super-customizable Marine codex, and in theory you could roll up most CSM into it (or just make Chaos a "template" you apply on other armies, or do like 2nd/3rd and roll up all Chaos in one codex, rather than the 4e CSM/Daemon split). Extreme? Maybe, but Psyker-heavy Marines aren't unique (Hi Blood Ravens/Exorcists), nor are xenotech super-shooty Marines (hi Mentors/Silver Sharks).

But that doesnt lessen the factions just the books they are splint into, and now that 1 book is 150$, HUGE like the old FW ones, bloated with rules and fluff most players wont use.

Let's be honest, there is a *lot* of copy-paste in the Marine armies. You could easily draw a Venn Diagram of the assorted Marine armies, and you could conclude that:

-Dark Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Bike unit, a +1 Terminator Unit, and a "Heavy Landspeeder." The Nephilim is a NotStormtalon with a few alternate rules, and less weapon variance. Whee.
-Blood Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Jump Pack unit, a "different" Ironclad, and a unique Predator loadout. Why not just go for "Assault Dread, Tactical Dread, Devestator Dread" or some other simple delineation, and give actual options between each kit. Oh right, because Magna Grapples are mutually exclusive with Assault Launchers are exclusive with shields. Because GW thinks "no options" drives sales.
-Black Templar got rolled into vanilla Space Marines because they arguably weren't unique enough, and their "uniqueness" came from being a holdover from 4th edition customizable rules. So now, they're just "that chapter that runs Scouts as meatshields." You know which other Chapter does this, but isn't known for religious fervor? The Iron Snakes. However, they're also known for Apothecary Sergeants, which obviously only the Red Scorpions are allowed to do.
-Space Wolves are a little trickier. Still, you could easily say they're "Chapter Tactics: Counterattack", let their Tacsquads buy Chainswords (but tbt, a tacsquad should just be a BP/Chainsword/Bolter grab-bag across the board. Far simpler that way), and they get some horses. So, add a codex deviation letting them run cavalry/hounds. Remember when they could crew a Russ Exterminator? Add a "trait" letting them "loot" Imperial vehicles at a point markup (think of it as a "cross-codex tax"). On a side note, I dunno about you ut I would definitely enjoy the idea of Hellhound Salamanders. Would make a LOT more thematic/fluff sense than having them in Landspeeders for one (especially given Nocturne is a heavy-G planet).
-Deathwatch are almost entirely "Elite Choices From Marines, and Special Ammo". Other than "mixed squads" (which you don't want to do), and the Corvus Blackstar, you could run a vanilla Marine Vanguard detachment and you wouldn't notice the difference, except for the fact Special Ammo was explicitly made Deathwatch-Only ("They're not armed with Special-Issue Ammo, they're using Special-Issue Bolters."). You'd think Special Ammo would be a purchasable option...except for the fact said ammo wasn't the reason you took Sternguard, so much as for the mass Combi-Meltas. So, rebalance the Special Ammo or other costs.
-So this leaves Grey Knights. "Power Armor & Storm Bolter Marines." Sure, whatever. Add some extra doctrines for superior equipment loadouts if you want, up costs accordingly. Maybe rules for a "Psychically Gifted" mutation or so. Let them *buy* this loadout, but it adds up. Then again, considering that "Grey Knight" armies nowadays boil down to "Draigo, some Interceptors, and Conscripts" or so...

Well everything is copy and past for the most part....

Look at Elite units compare to the equivalent non-elite ones, Veteran units, command units etc... so should we remove all those too?

What about the Venom vs Starweaver? they are basically the same them lets remove one of them.

Falcon compare to Wave serpent, they are almost the same, lets remove of them them too.

The Scout Speed and other Land Speeder, they are to similar, lets remove one.

Just b.c they have things in common doesnt mean they are the same, there are large differences that make players happy.
All the armies you said has there own looks to them as well, with upgrades for vehicles, different weapons, shoulders, heads and chest pieces many of the time.

This IS NOT just a game, its also a modeling and painting hobby.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

What exactly are you arguing? Some lists are more powerful than others and it changes over time. I get that you don't like Space Marines. You don't need to play with them. That's my point - variety is good. Are you arguing that GSC are good? I agree with you. Go out and play with them! I do as a change from my Dark Angels and I am enjoying it. Do you think that Marine Chapters are making Orks "monobuild?" That is an Ork list problem (they have, in theory, several builds) and not an SM problem.

I play Chaos Space Marines. I believe there should be one, super-customizable Marine codex, and in theory you could roll up most CSM into it (or just make Chaos a "template" you apply on other armies, or do like 2nd/3rd and roll up all Chaos in one codex, rather than the 4e CSM/Daemon split). Extreme? Maybe, but Psyker-heavy Marines aren't unique (Hi Blood Ravens/Exorcists), nor are xenotech super-shooty Marines (hi Mentors/Silver Sharks).

But that doesnt lessen the factions just the books they are splint into, and now that 1 book is 150$, HUGE like the old FW ones, bloated with rules and fluff most players wont use.

Let's be honest, there is a *lot* of copy-paste in the Marine armies. You could easily draw a Venn Diagram of the assorted Marine armies, and you could conclude that:

-Dark Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Bike unit, a +1 Terminator Unit, and a "Heavy Landspeeder." The Nephilim is a NotStormtalon with a few alternate rules, and less weapon variance. Whee.
-Blood Angels are Vanilla Marines, with a +1 Jump Pack unit, a "different" Ironclad, and a unique Predator loadout. Why not just go for "Assault Dread, Tactical Dread, Devestator Dread" or some other simple delineation, and give actual options between each kit. Oh right, because Magna Grapples are mutually exclusive with Assault Launchers are exclusive with shields. Because GW thinks "no options" drives sales.
-Black Templar got rolled into vanilla Space Marines because they arguably weren't unique enough, and their "uniqueness" came from being a holdover from 4th edition customizable rules. So now, they're just "that chapter that runs Scouts as meatshields." You know which other Chapter does this, but isn't known for religious fervor? The Iron Snakes. However, they're also known for Apothecary Sergeants, which obviously only the Red Scorpions are allowed to do.
-Space Wolves are a little trickier. Still, you could easily say they're "Chapter Tactics: Counterattack", let their Tacsquads buy Chainswords (but tbt, a tacsquad should just be a BP/Chainsword/Bolter grab-bag across the board. Far simpler that way), and they get some horses. So, add a codex deviation letting them run cavalry/hounds. Remember when they could crew a Russ Exterminator? Add a "trait" letting them "loot" Imperial vehicles at a point markup (think of it as a "cross-codex tax"). On a side note, I dunno about you ut I would definitely enjoy the idea of Hellhound Salamanders. Would make a LOT more thematic/fluff sense than having them in Landspeeders for one (especially given Nocturne is a heavy-G planet).
-Deathwatch are almost entirely "Elite Choices From Marines, and Special Ammo". Other than "mixed squads" (which you don't want to do), and the Corvus Blackstar, you could run a vanilla Marine Vanguard detachment and you wouldn't notice the difference, except for the fact Special Ammo was explicitly made Deathwatch-Only ("They're not armed with Special-Issue Ammo, they're using Special-Issue Bolters."). You'd think Special Ammo would be a purchasable option...except for the fact said ammo wasn't the reason you took Sternguard, so much as for the mass Combi-Meltas. So, rebalance the Special Ammo or other costs.
-So this leaves Grey Knights. "Power Armor & Storm Bolter Marines." Sure, whatever. Add some extra doctrines for superior equipment loadouts if you want, up costs accordingly. Maybe rules for a "Psychically Gifted" mutation or so. Let them *buy* this loadout, but it adds up. Then again, considering that "Grey Knight" armies nowadays boil down to "Draigo, some Interceptors, and Conscripts" or so...

Well everything is copy and past for the most part....

Look at Elite units compare to the equivalent non-elite ones, Veteran units, command units etc... so should we remove all those too?

What about the Venom vs Starweaver? they are basically the same them lets remove one of them.

Falcon compare to Wave serpent, they are almost the same, lets remove of them them too.

The Scout Speed and other Land Speeder, they are to similar, lets remove one.

Just b.c they have things in common doesnt mean they are the same, there are large differences that make players happy.
All the armies you said has there own looks to them as well, with upgrades for vehicles, different weapons, shoulders, heads and chest pieces many of the time.

This IS NOT just a game, its also a modeling and painting hobby.

I would be cool with Eldar having a single Sky-Chariot platform that has "one underslung weapon, one turret weapon, which may be swapped out for transport capacity" or some open-ended customization along that line. You know, akin to a more limited VDR.

Ditto a "Daemonforged Flyer of Chaos" that could be customized to be a Heltalon, Heldrake, Doomwing, Blight Drone, etc. It would still allow for options, while theoretically dodging any explicit issues regarding mini copyrights.

 Luciferian wrote:
I think making certain sub-factions (TSons, DG, major SM chapters) into their own, self-sufficient Codex armies is great. That is definitely assuming that they have enough unique rules and units to set them apart from their forebears, however.

Half measures that end up breaking apart armies into pieces that can barely function on their own, or that are extremely subtle variations on their vanilla parents, are horrible.

There are certainly plenty of examples of both the former and the latter.

Ain't that the truth

But, we need only look at the (current, hopefully temporary) difference between Thousand Sons and Deathguard.

Thousand Sons? Well, for a pure force I get Sorceror Lords, Magnus, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Tzaangors. Army does of course look fantastic on the field, but not a great many units.

Death Guard? Well, I'm not yet familiar with their full force and the unit names, but they've got more than Thousand Sons! Just taking their unique units, you don't really need to fallback on 'Deathguard Havocs' or similarly 'whack a mark on it and call it Deathguard' stuff.

I currently live in hope that my Thousand Sons will get some reinforcements

New factions are ok, and they would never be enough. New allied to the imperium forces would be a completely different matter, since they're already too many.

To be honest I'd prefer some new units for those already existing armies that haven't got a lot of choices like SoB, harlequins, gen cult, deathwach... If GW really wants to add new imperium stuff just re-pack the SoB catalogue with plastic kits.

I'm just gunna quote my response to another thread:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I think they will split the last edition Imperial agents into 2:

1. Will be Astra Ministorum Codex (Like in the index: Priests etc & SoB)
2. Will be Imperial Agents (everything that can be infused into existing imperium armies): Inquisition, Assassins, SoS, Adeptus Custodes, LoTD. I would say maybe knights, however, they probably give them their own codex.

I would say knights because of the lack of rules for <Household> so probably get their own codex?

If say my Book 2 can be integrated into any imperium army will that disadvantage xenos? Yes, in the context that they have more options and diversity. In regards to utility and rules? Depends on the units released in the various codex's (both xenos and imperium). They could release all the rules for existing models and 3/4 of the Imperium models could be useless in comparison to your main Imperium army (eg like inquisitors atm). They could be good as well but.

In regards to so many factions, I think the diversity sits well. Granted Imperium has an advantage in numbers (that's because people gravitate more to hero's they can relate to, google scholar it for research).
I personally would like to see a mercenary race for the 'xenos only' created (not available to Imperium) to bring in a balance of numbers and some diversity, but it comes down to cost of development etc (depends how well this year goes I suppose in sales).

I missed the Squat . Oh well I love them as a Faction. When I plat them a long time ago.

DEZOAT wrote:
I missed the Squat . Oh well I love them as a Faction. When I plat them a long time ago.

You can still use the models. I use my squats as ratlings. Squats live on even in death

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Enough... is never enough!
There is no such thing as too much factions. Variety is the spice of life as they say. I also have no problem with supplementary codices. I think the problem is with people viewing those as full 'armies'. A codex like 7th edition Militarum Tempestus or the Harlequins however was never meant to be a standalone army. They were meant to be used as supporting elements for existing armies.

As to the Marine codices, BA and DA could be rolled into the main SM codex, but this would be unnecessarily complicated as they both have a lot of special units and rules that need to be preserved and there would be less room for fluff and future developments. Also, it would bloat the size of the SM codex to the point where GW would probably need to make it more expensive, which would lead to all sorts of complaining.
SW and GK are simply too different, they only share a few units in common with the SM codex.

Blood and Dark Angels don't have enough special units to deserve their own Codices. You'd be able to keep 1-2 of their own units (Black and death knights, Death Company) and leave it at that (anything else can be represented by a different unit entry or the unit sucks so bad it doesn't deserve one). Then you turn a couple rules into a Chapter Tactic. Easy as that. Then we could allow sharing of wargear. It's silly nobody else's Terminators has access to Plasma Cannons, or that nobody's characters gets Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols, and it's silly those chapters don't have the regular Fliers or Thunderfire Cannons or Centurions.

I say nay. Warhammer does not have too many factions. Also bear in mind that there are factions within factions within factions. Here are a few examples.

Imperium/Astra Militarum/Regiment
Aeldari/Asurmen(Spelling)/Craftworld
Tyranids/Hive Fleet

Obviously, to build any army, it must include at least 1 common Faction key word. The only exception to this is in the GSC list. However, I have not looked directly at the Orc part of the index to see if the can include looted wagons yet.

A lot of the buffs are key word faction specific. As a perfect example, The Officio Prefrectus, have Commissars. All of their buffs only effect units with the key word Astra Militarum.

I like the current state of affairs. It is circles within circles.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Ain't that the truth

But, we need only look at the (current, hopefully temporary) difference between Thousand Sons and Deathguard.

Thousand Sons? Well, for a pure force I get Sorceror Lords, Magnus, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Tzaangors. Army does of course look fantastic on the field, but not a great many units.

Death Guard? Well, I'm not yet familiar with their full force and the unit names, but they've got more than Thousand Sons! Just taking their unique units, you don't really need to fallback on 'Deathguard Havocs' or similarly 'whack a mark on it and call it Deathguard' stuff.

I currently live in hope that my Thousand Sons will get some reinforcements

The new Death Guard codex is, in my opinion, a great example of how to make a fully fleshed out and self-sufficient subfaction. They have all the units they need, they have great rules that promote synergy, and it seems like there are multiple ways to go about building a viable list. I wouldn't be surprised if the TSons got a similar treatment in the future.

Now if they can only do that to the rest of the Factions....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Enough... is never enough!
There is no such thing as too much factions. Variety is the spice of life as they say. I also have no problem with supplementary codices. I think the problem is with people viewing those as full 'armies'. A codex like 7th edition Militarum Tempestus or the Harlequins however was never meant to be a standalone army. They were meant to be used as supporting elements for existing armies.

As to the Marine codices, BA and DA could be rolled into the main SM codex, but this would be unnecessarily complicated as they both have a lot of special units and rules that need to be preserved and there would be less room for fluff and future developments. Also, it would bloat the size of the SM codex to the point where GW would probably need to make it more expensive, which would lead to all sorts of complaining.
SW and GK are simply too different, they only share a few units in common with the SM codex.

Blood and Dark Angels don't have enough special units to deserve their own Codices. You'd be able to keep 1-2 of their own units (Black and death knights, Death Company) and leave it at that (anything else can be represented by a different unit entry or the unit sucks so bad it doesn't deserve one). Then you turn a couple rules into a Chapter Tactic. Easy as that. Then we could allow sharing of wargear. It's silly nobody else's Terminators has access to Plasma Cannons, or that nobody's characters gets Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols, and it's silly those chapters don't have the regular Fliers or Thunderfire Cannons or Centurions.

No. That is a laughably bad idea. What you are proposing is taking away the factions' unique flavour in order to make them fit into the SM codex. At that point we could also try fitting in CSM or even Orks into the SM codex, could we not? If leave them some of their units, bring the others in line with SM equivalents, take away most of their unique rules, share their wargear, then they'd fit in perfectly!
There is nothing to win by putting BA and DA into the SM codex. Only thing we'd get from that is 2 less factions. And a game is supposed to develop and grow, not regress and shrink. Less choice and less variety is never a good thing for a game.

People trying to justify putting BA, DA, SW, DW and GK into SM codex are like Simpson's Stan Lee putting The Hulk into the batmovile.

 Galas wrote:
People trying to justify putting BA, DA, SW, DW and GK into SM codex are like Simpson's Stan Lee putting The Hulk into the batmovile.

Not exactly an accurate analogy, considering they're from two separate IPs from two separate holding companies. A more accurate analogy might be trying to give the Butcher of Khardov the Mark of Khorne, or to give Dominar Rasheth the Mark of Slaanesh.

In all seriousness though, a good answer to "too many factions" is when said factions are not "standalone viable", or they have a "faction calculus" equation that overlaps too much with other factions. Starcraft wouldn't have been half the game it was, if every Faction was Terran, and the only difference was "which" unit got the +1. (You "could" argue that Age of Empires II was able to pull off such a trick despite all armies using the same tech-tree, due to civ bonuses, restricted techs, and unique techs/UUs, but Korea was tournament-banned prior to Forgotten patches, so...). Create a "DIY" chapter system, whether it's akin to Kharadron skyports, or a full-on "trait" system akin to 3.5 Guard or the Deathwatch RPG, make certain choices "mutually exclusive" based on fluff & balance (A chapter that uses "radical" tech, be it Baal Engines or Helfrost weapons will have a much tougher time getting sanctioned to wield Centurions after all...), and make it easier to customize your own "Marine +1" units. That's where the majority of functional differences between Marines lie anyway, the Elites.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Enough... is never enough!
There is no such thing as too much factions. Variety is the spice of life as they say. I also have no problem with supplementary codices. I think the problem is with people viewing those as full 'armies'. A codex like 7th edition Militarum Tempestus or the Harlequins however was never meant to be a standalone army. They were meant to be used as supporting elements for existing armies.

As to the Marine codices, BA and DA could be rolled into the main SM codex, but this would be unnecessarily complicated as they both have a lot of special units and rules that need to be preserved and there would be less room for fluff and future developments. Also, it would bloat the size of the SM codex to the point where GW would probably need to make it more expensive, which would lead to all sorts of complaining.
SW and GK are simply too different, they only share a few units in common with the SM codex.

Blood and Dark Angels don't have enough special units to deserve their own Codices. You'd be able to keep 1-2 of their own units (Black and death knights, Death Company) and leave it at that (anything else can be represented by a different unit entry or the unit sucks so bad it doesn't deserve one). Then you turn a couple rules into a Chapter Tactic. Easy as that. Then we could allow sharing of wargear. It's silly nobody else's Terminators has access to Plasma Cannons, or that nobody's characters gets Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols, and it's silly those chapters don't have the regular Fliers or Thunderfire Cannons or Centurions.

No. That is a laughably bad idea. What you are proposing is taking away the factions' unique flavour in order to make them fit into the SM codex. At that point we could also try fitting in CSM or even Orks into the SM codex, could we not? If leave them some of their units, bring the others in line with SM equivalents, take away most of their unique rules, share their wargear, then they'd fit in perfectly!
There is nothing to win by putting BA and DA into the SM codex. Only thing we'd get from that is 2 less factions. And a game is supposed to develop and grow, not regress and shrink. Less choice and less variety is never a good thing for a game.

Chaos Space Marines have FAR more unique units and options that you couldn't do that. Same with Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and, to an extent, Deathwatch. Try again, please, but without the justification you could throw Orks in the same codex because you clearly can't get a point across without a terrible comparison/exaggeration.

Dionysodorus wrote:
They were just in the index because if they weren't then people would get mad that Dark Eldar lost a unit. This contributes to a lot of bloat as GW keeps including units without trying to make them playable.

If only there were a way that GW could have all of these variant models around, but not have them bloat up the rules. For example, back in 2E, GW had lots of rules for Power Swords distinct from Power Axes and other Power whatnots. If only there were some sort of precedent for how GW could simplify the rules while still allowing those various models to be playable in the edition. If only...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blood and Dark Angels don't have enough special units to deserve their own Codices. You'd be able to keep 1-2 of their own units (Black and death knights, Death Company) and leave it at that (anything else can be represented by a different unit entry or the unit sucks so bad it doesn't deserve one). Then you turn a couple rules into a Chapter Tactic. Easy as that. Then we could allow sharing of wargear. It's silly nobody else's Terminators has access to Plasma Cannons, or that nobody's characters gets Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols, and it's silly those chapters don't have the regular Fliers or Thunderfire Cannons or Centurions.

GW has done this before, and it'd be great! I'm all for the homogenizing of Space Marines.

Or at least requiring them to pay $100 for the core SM Codex and another $40 for their extra-special Faction Codex.

You don't have to homegenize them all. You only need to take care of Dark and Blood Angels. Space Wolves and Grey Knights should remain independent and Deathwatch should go into a basic Inquisition codex along with Sisters (where Grey Knights can optionally go as well). Bam, that's significantly less books with still tons of options.