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Making comparisons between products and their prices and informing other consumers about your results isn't "hate". It should be considered normal, healthy consumer behaviour.

If somebody feels attacked by such comparisons, maybe they should reevaluate their objectivity when it comes to buying certain products - the feeling of unease may be a sign of cognitive dissonance when faced with evidence that one's choices are not too reasonable.

And one of the strategies for coping with cognitive dissonance is avoidance (like the aforementioned group of players not wanting to see comparisons).

 warboss wrote:
Your local scene was that sensitive to comparative advertising? I don't think that's universally applicable and there were likey a myriad of other factors that contributed to it.

It wasn't comparative advertising, and you're right it's likely not universally applicable.

 warboss wrote:
I fully admit I didn't see this expansive and acerbic Mantic scorched earth advertising campaign that ravaged Nottingham though. Could you post a link to the examples you think are most indicative of the truly local-scene killing advertising you mentioned?

And one of the strategies for coping with cognitive dissonance is avoidance (like the aforementioned group of players not wanting to see comparisons).

The specific tipping point was The Old World announcement, when Mantic made the post that was like "our square bases never left!" and the ensuing discourse around that in the online community. It made a lot of local people realize and/or start to believe that Mantic wasn't doing "Mantic's thing" and the wider player base wasn't interested in "Mantic's thing". Mantic was doing GW's thing and the player base was interested in "fighting the man (GW)".

Anyways, Chaos0xOmega put what I want to say way better than I'm capable of doing, so I'll leave it at that. If you really want to carry on the conversation, you can bring it to my DMs so as to not drive this topic further off topic.

 Rihgu wrote:
The specific tipping point was The Old World announcement, when Mantic made the post that was like "our square bases never left!" and the ensuing discourse around that in the online community. It made a lot of local people realize and/or start to believe that Mantic wasn't doing "Mantic's thing" and the wider player base wasn't interested in "Mantic's thing". Mantic was doing GW's thing and the player base was interested in "fighting the man (GW)".

Beauty/quality is obviously in the eye of the beholder but IMO alot of the popularity of the initial KoW campaign/release was to get an affordable alternative to GW figures at the same relative quality. Admittedly this next part is anecdotal similar to your own experience but the KoW as a game exploded locally in my area specifically because GW killed WHFB and players wanted an established game to play with their existing collections as well as a product line to expand them with (both of which Mantic's offerings fulfilled). So... when TOW was announced and your local scene died, you thought that the reason was the tone of the Mantic's advertising response and not that the minis in general didn't live up to the hype and that the main rules/IP reason people defected in the first place would soonTM become moot?

Neither of these are really true with Conquest though as they've always done their own thing. I do actually agree with you that direct comparative advertising isn't the way to go with their products but for a different reason than you state... the scale difference. It's huge (pun intended) when seen in person and that's already assuming people have no issue with GW's ever increasing fantasy (sliding) scale itself. In my case, I was aware of the scale difference in theory but seeing it in practice at the FLGS during biennial flea market event really hammered it home for me that the figs wouldn't fit anything in my existing collection making it a permanent no-go for me personally. I suspect even for people with only small GW collections gathering dust in dingy basements and the back of a closet that the scale difference might scare them off as a result of the advertisement. I know harping on the scale here in thread is likely to boil the blood of some readers so I won't belabor the point or (god forbid) mention the giant issue with the line.

Rhigu, if the Mantic ads bothered you so much, how did you feel about GW starting the beef by announcing TOW just after the new KOW edition dropped? (And please don’t BS that the two were unrelated. GW never makes those kinds of announcements years in advance with no finished work to show.)


Warboss, I get the scale issue, especially with the rank and file. The mounted knights are monstrously huge, but to me that lends them more credibility as Grail Knights or Chaos Knights in a range where one’s status often correlates with the bulk of their model.

They were unrelated. KOW 3.0 was announced 6 months prior and officially released about 4 weeks before the TOW announcement was actually posted. If GW wanted to target that kind of announcement against KOW, they would have done a much better job of it and landed the announcement on an actual date of significance to overshadow it, rather than letting Mantic have the microphone and spotlight for a full 6 months leading up to it.

We also recently heard some "insider knowledge" that the TOW announcement was supposedly unauthorized by higher-ups in GW management and the design team jumped the gun by pushing it out without informing them of the intent or seeking permission to do so. Was some implication that that was done intentionally by some members of the design team who were concerned that the project would be canned in its early stages as it hadn't yet been fully greenlit by management and was only authorized to proceed in a limited conceptual design study, apparently the thinking was that if they announced it publicly it would be harder for management to get rid of it later once it was public. That was also part of the reason for the lengthy gaps between snippets of info, because there was legitimately nothing really done or prepped before the announcement was pushed out, and management clamped down on allowing further communication lest they become beholden to anything that hadn't yet been fully approved or thought out.

would provide a source, but I can't recall where I read/heard it other than that it was within the past month or so.

Local gamers just won't touch anything that isn't GW because "everyone plays GW", and "Ewww, Mantic models are gross!"

OK what about Conquest? "but... Old World..." It's a struggle.

The starter sets for this game look great but I can't afford to drop more money on systems people just will not even consider. I might pick up a few faction taster sets to support Parabellum though.

edit:

Disregard. Clicked on this by accident and thought I was in the thread that I had intended to be in. Why are KoW and TOW/Gw being discussed in a Conquest thread lol?

Because they're the obvious competitors in the fantasy wargaming space and comparisons are inevitable?

They are competitors, and they aren't. The difference in scale means the minis from one don't work for the other, but they are still both rank and file fantasy. Yet there is a degree of separation that does not exist for KoW.

As for comparisons, household knights would be a pretty poor choice being among PBs oldest and a massive downgrade in quality compared to anything from the past two years.

Household Knights still look awesome even though they are an older kit but that is just my opinion.

The hobby is healthy when there are many different options and healthy communities around them. That is the philosophy of Para Bellum as well that is why they don't allow people badmouthing other games on their Discord and have an #offtopic channel where you can discuss other games.

When every content creator does Warhammer (even though a lot of them dislike it behind doors) and everyone just plays Warhammer no matter how expensive it gets then you hurt the hobby overall. Whether we like it or not, Warhammer is usually the first experience with the hobby and if that experience is bad then it is bad news with everyone.

So yeah it's not hate, it is valid critisim and defending stuff you like without good reason is bad for you too.


*pic from Duncan Rhodes Instagram

After reading some articles and scanning through the PB website, Conquest does not seem cheaper than GW at all. Aren't you paying between 400-700€ for a 2k army as well?

I bought into many different systems (Firestorm Armada, Helldorado, Dropzone Commander, Demonworld, Hordes etc) but all of them died eventually.

If you buy GW minis you can still always sell them at 50-75% of the price. Sometimes even more than purchase price years ago.
When I buy into Conquest, I would probably not be able to sell the minis at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah and not to mention that nobody in our gaming club (the biggest in Germany) is playing it.

I could have gone for conquest, if not for the scale. I like it a lot more than the old world stuff gw is throwing out now. But the fact a basic infantry rivals a stormcast model for size murders it for me.

 Astmeister wrote:
After reading some articles and scanning through the PB website, Conquest does not seem cheaper than GW at all. Aren't you paying between 400-700€ for a 2k army as well?

I bought into many different systems (Firestorm Armada, Helldorado, Dropzone Commander, Demonworld, Hordes etc) but all of them died eventually.

If you buy GW minis you can still always sell them at 50-75% of the price. Sometimes even more than purchase price years ago.
When I buy into Conquest, I would probably not be able to sell the minis at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, a 2000 point army for the rank and file game will cost your from 400-700$ depending on the list. For 40k, and correct me if i am wrong, the cheaper 2000 points army you can get is 700$ for Adeptus Custodes.

The difference is you get the free rules and updates for life.

And regarding reselling. Conquest releases limited edition Founder's Exclusives. One had a price of 160$ when released and now you can find one on ebay for 500$ https://ebay.to/41SN2IX

So I think with the christmas bundle you can get away with much less than 700€. But that depends how tournament viable you want it I suppose.

Rules free for life:
1.) Not sure how long this will live
2.) Not sure if they will always be free

Reselling:
Limited edition stuff maybe, but only if the system does not die.

I get the point why they went to 38mm or so. But would first try it with regular GW miniatures I have, because not sure this game sticks around for too long. Like I said I don't know anyone who is playing it.

 Astmeister wrote:
So I think with the christmas bundle you can get away with much less than 700€. But that depends how tournament viable you want it I suppose.

Rules free for life:
1.) Not sure how long this will live
2.) Not sure if they will always be free

Reselling:
Limited edition stuff maybe, but only if the system does not die.

I get the point why they went to 38mm or so. But would first try it with regular GW miniatures I have, because not sure this game sticks around for too long. Like I said I don't know anyone who is playing it.

Its been around 5 years so far and about to release a new faction, seems fine for the near future.

In the battle of anecdotes, several stores near me have large followings that play weekly. There is a lively discord, though I don't have a link.

The knights were hands down the best minis in the starter set. They have that “it” factor that makes them compelling to hold. They’re just really fun bighonk knights.

As for the prices to get into Conquest, they seem to offer a lot of starter sets, samplers, and limited deals for a starter and a couple boxes, that kind of thing. They’re more expensive than Mantic, Victrix or Wargames Atlantic, but compared to GW they feel downright generous.

And Dropzone Commander isn’t dead. In fact, they’re releasing a new core game and a new gimmicky mini game this year. Sorry your local area sucks for variety and you don’t have friends who will play cool games with you instead of chasing GWalibu Stacy’s new hat, but your experience is not universal.

One thing to remember is that Conquest minis aee quite literally MORE mini for the price. 12 infantry boxes are sized like minis GW charges twice as much for. Brutes are near dreadnought size, monsters are HUGE

It's a bit sad that the older kits don't hold the quality of the newer ones all the time. I would like to try out the 100 Kingdoms, but older models like Men-at-Arms look imho too silly.

They revealed their first resculpt. The old Abomination is getting a facelift for the 5th anniversary. It will replace the old model.

I thought this was the artisan series which is much more expensive (special edition)?

 Astmeister wrote:
I thought this was the artisan series which is much more expensive (special edition)?

That’s what I saw too (unfortunately!)

Hm, not a fan of the new sculpt but it is still a huge improvement over the Toys-R-Us action figure. Shame if it's a collector's series.

chaos0xomega wrote:They were unrelated. KOW 3.0 was announced 6 months prior and officially released about 4 weeks before the TOW announcement was actually posted. If GW wanted to target that kind of announcement against KOW, they would have done a much better job of it and landed the announcement on an actual date of significance to overshadow it, rather than letting Mantic have the microphone and spotlight for a full 6 months leading up to it.

KoW 3 might have affect the timing IMO.
The years in advance announcement looked like a bid to keep their market share from drifting away to me. From all the rank and flank games that got a boost when WHFB left the room.

Rihgu wrote:The specific tipping point was The Old World announcement, when Mantic made the post that was like "our square bases never left!" and the ensuing discourse around that in the online community. It made a lot of local people realize and/or start to believe that Mantic wasn't doing "Mantic's thing" and the wider player base wasn't interested in "Mantic's thing". Mantic was doing GW's thing and the player base was interested in "fighting the man (GW)".

They're doing it again with the The Old World releasing today.
I started a new thread so that we don't drive off topic here.

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:I could have gone for conquest, if not for the scale. I like it a lot more than the old world stuff gw is throwing out now. But the fact a basic infantry rivals a stormcast model for size murders it for me.

Same for me. I have developed a strong aversion to buying miniatures that I can only use in one game though, so it's on me rather than Para Bellum.

Same for me. I have developed a strong aversion to buying miniatures that I can only use in one game though, so it's on me rather than Para Bellum.

Again i find this argument moot because if you play AoS or 40K you can't use the old world miniatures for anything else. The scale is too different.

See that old world skeleton next to the Undeworlds Vampire lmao.

chaos0xomega wrote:
We also recently heard some "insider knowledge" that the TOW announcement was supposedly unauthorized by higher-ups in GW management and the design team jumped the gun by pushing it out without informing them of the intent or seeking permission to do so. Was some implication that that was done intentionally by some members of the design team who were concerned that the project would be canned in its early stages as it hadn't yet been fully greenlit by management and was only authorized to proceed in a limited conceptual design study, apparently the thinking was that if they announced it publicly it would be harder for management to get rid of it later once it was public. That was also part of the reason for the lengthy gaps between snippets of info, because there was legitimately nothing really done or prepped before the announcement was pushed out, and management clamped down on allowing further communication lest they become beholden to anything that hadn't yet been fully approved or thought out.

would provide a source, but I can't recall where I read/heard it other than that it was within the past month or so.

Brisbane (n.) A perfectly reasonable explanation. (Such as the one offered by a person with a gurgling cough which has nothing to do with the fact that they smoke fifty cigarettes a day.)

Happy Hour for 11th of January announced. They will reveal the Sorcerer Kings and the new product catalogue.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, not a fan of the new sculpt but it is still a huge improvement over the Toys-R-Us action figure. Shame if it's a collector's series.

Yeah, for a creature with no less than eight limbs, it's really a touch too close to a T pose. I don't need a dancing-on-air GW style pose, but some sense of motion would be welcome.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The point is to make potential customers aware of alternatives.

Most people exposed to such advertisement would already be aware of said alternative. In general, adversarial marketing drives entrenchment, not expansion, of market share.

Sasorijap wrote:
They revealed their first resculpt. The old Abomination is getting a facelift for the 5th anniversary. It will replace the old model.

Oh that looks so much better.

Cities of Sigmar Infantry fits perfectly to the scale of Warhammer the Old World.

Is a size and price comparison really adversarial? Every time I buy generic loratadine with it’s “compare to Claritin” label, I’m supporting hostile marketing?