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"Except in assault, where Marines cream Sisters. "

Assault basically doesn't matter in 8th. That's the problem. Everything dies to shooting or hits a screen before said mythical combat occurs. BA are gonna super deadly in CC. Is that relevant? Probably not because I'm gonna get shot to death long before I can assault.

Generalists should be charged very little for CQC ability. Very little.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again...nodody is complaining about Guardians shooting Tactical Marines. Pretty sure everyone agrees Guardians need a buff.

The Wave Serpent also works as a generalist simply because of the Fly rule. If you removed that I'd argue it's overcosted.

Gardians got a buff - 1 CP command points deep strike. With the ability to go to 3++ save for 1 additional command point and a spell cast. If Tac marines got that - I would totally use them.

Not directly related to the 10 man squad issue, but anyone else think it's kinda weird that an Imperial Guard Platoon Commander gets 3 wounds while a Space Marine gets only 1?

M.

Bharring wrote:
Replace 'Guardians' with 'Dire Avengers', if you want. Point still stands. That's the more common discussion, but it's been done to death. Didn't want to derail this thread with it too.

As long as other Codices are in discussion they're gonna be brought up, like it or not.

Besides I never said Dire Avengers were perfect. Merely they have a specific role, and they do it well. Hell I'd give them a super Objective Secured rule if I could.


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 Infantryman wrote:
Not directly related to the 10 man squad issue, but anyone else think it's kinda weird that an Imperial Guard Platoon Commander gets 3 wounds while a Space Marine gets only 1?

M.

All hero dudes are like that. Doesn't bother me at all.

Martel732 wrote:"Except in assault, where Marines cream Sisters. "

Assault basically doesn't matter in 8th. That's the problem. Everything dies to shooting or hits a screen before said mythical combat occurs. BA are gonna super deadly in CC. Is that relevant? Probably not because I'm gonna get shot to death long before I can assault.

If it did matter, would you take Tactical Marines? Because then all that needs to happen is a fix to the core rules.

Infantryman wrote:Not directly related to the 10 man squad issue, but anyone else think it's kinda weird that an Imperial Guard Platoon Commander gets 3 wounds while a Space Marine gets only 1?

M.

Yes. I always have found it weird that wounds varied between dudes and their squads. Like is it really the case that if I strapped a regular Space Marine Veteran to the wall and shot him in the eye with a laspistol, he would die, but if I did the same thing to a Space Marine Captain, he'd be alright for six times?

The "wound" stat I essentially had to translate into a purely mechanical sphere, because from a fluff perspective, they make 0 sense.

 Infantryman wrote:
Not directly related to the 10 man squad issue, but anyone else think it's kinda weird that an Imperial Guard Platoon Commander gets 3 wounds while a Space Marine gets only 1?

M.

Everyone thinks that is weird. It usually devolves into a discussion about marine players wanting movie marines and what not. Marines want to automatically win blah blah blah. Personally I think most heros have to many wounds. It's because they were afraid of the sniper rule with these new character rules.

"If it did matter, would you take Tactical Marines? Because then all that needs to happen is a fix to the core rules. "

If it did matter, marines would play more like 13 ppm as opposed to 11 ppm. But CQC for generalists has been dead since 5th. In 7th, it required outrageous death stars to even survive the trip to the Eldar/Tau battle lines.

Martel732 wrote:
"Except in assault, where Marines cream Sisters. "

Assault basically doesn't matter in 8th. That's the problem. Everything dies to shooting or hits a screen before said mythical combat occurs. BA are gonna super deadly in CC. Is that relevant? Probably not because I'm gonna get shot to death long before I can assault.

Generalists should be charged very little for CQC ability. Very little.

This is part of the issue of paying for stats you don't use (my Assault Marines don't actually need the BS3+ and it wouldn't be missed). Either that, or you have stats that don't compliment each other (that S4 and WS3+ doesn't matter with only 1 attack, as often as people try to bring that up. An equal amount of Tactical Marines are hardly killing anybody that wants to shoot, and theyre not really outshooting Orks out of everyone by a lot).

Also, you could always create a role for Tactical Marines, perhaps.

"Sweep and Clear: Each Adeptus Astartes Tactical Marine counts as 4 models for the purposes of Objective Secured." or something like that. It represents them not having a role to focus on in the fluff - Devastators are distracted responding to calls for fire support, Assault Squads are distracted looking for duders to murderize, Sternguard Squads are distracted guarding sterns, while the Tactical Marines can sit on an objective and focus on methodically securing it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Not directly related to the 10 man squad issue, but anyone else think it's kinda weird that an Imperial Guard Platoon Commander gets 3 wounds while a Space Marine gets only 1?

M.

Everyone thinks that is weird. It usually devolves into a discussion about marine players wanting movie marines and what not. Marines want to automatically win blah blah blah. Personally I think most heros have to many wounds. It's because they were afraid of the sniper rule with these new character rules.

Actually it's because of old ID mechanic now translating into different damage stats for weapons instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, you could always create a role for Tactical Marines, perhaps.

"Sweep and Clear: Each Adeptus Astartes Tactical Marine counts as 4 models for the purposes of Objective Secured." or something like that. It represents them not having a role to focus on in the fluff - Devastators are distracted responding to calls for fire support, Assault Squads are distracted looking for duders to murderize, Sternguard Squads are distracted guarding sterns, while the Tactical Marines can sit on an objective and focus on methodically securing it.

That doesn't help though because if someone REALLY wants a Tactical Marine dead...theyll die. They're not exactly hard to kill. That's part of the issue with the OS rule. It isn't terribly valuable on most units, with anyone gaining a benefit is a actually an exception rather than a rule.

I really see no problem in allowing Tacs to count more than the average Guardsman, and much more than the average Eldar, when it came to ObSec. It's what they do.

But CC stats already kinda do that. If I set 5 DAs on a point, and you set 5 Marines on the same point, you're going to assault me. THen you'll have more marines than I have DAs very, very quickly.

If you can't make use of the stats, sure, they are wasted for you. But why should those who enjoy those stats lose them, too?

One Guardian squad can do that trick you talked about. Two can deepstrike (for 3CP, not 2), but you can only protect one of them, and can only use that strat on one of them.

Marines *CAN* do the 'deepstrike' thing - either with a pod or with Infiltrate. They can't get the 3++, which is good, but they're also a lot more durable per model, and their deepstrike/infiltrate options aren't as restrictive as WWP.

It's an asymetric game. Of course things are different.

"you're going to assault me."

My units won't live long enough to assault you. That's the problem. Listen to the problems, please. Assault doesn't matter at all. Shooting matters.

That's not a problem, Martel.

Units die all the time. If units dying is your problem, you're playing the wrong game.

If you are proposing that it is impossible for a Tactical Marine squad to cover the ~6" max distance between the 5 DAs in that scenario...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That's not a problem, Martel.

Units die all the time. If units dying is your problem, you're playing the wrong game.

If you are proposing that it is impossible for a Tactical Marine squad to cover the ~6" max distance between the 5 DAs in that scenario...

My problem is all units dying before assault vs a meaningful target happens. Which is every game against lists with screening units.

Bharring wrote:
I really see no problem in allowing Tacs to count more than the average Guardsman, and much more than the average Eldar, when it came to ObSec. It's what they do.

But CC stats already kinda do that. If I set 5 DAs on a point, and you set 5 Marines on the same point, you're going to assault me. THen you'll have more marines than I have DAs very, very quickly.

If you can't make use of the stats, sure, they are wasted for you. But why should those who enjoy those stats lose them, too?

One Guardian squad can do that trick you talked about. Two can deepstrike (for 3CP, not 2), but you can only protect one of them, and can only use that strat on one of them.

Marines *CAN* do the 'deepstrike' thing - either with a pod or with Infiltrate. They can't get the 3++, which is good, but they're also a lot more durable per model, and their deepstrike/infiltrate options aren't as restrictive as WWP.

It's an asymetric game. Of course things are different.

People keep talking about Tactical Marines assaulting as though that ever happened a lot.

Since I started using Marines in 5th, you know how many times I had a Tactical Marine squad assault anything? FOUR times. That's when I had Heavy Flamer access too so at least they were close and wanted to be close.
Couple in weapons that don't let you assault most of the time and there ya go.

Even in tournaments it only happens once in a blue moon, so I don't know why it's still being mentioned.

Because it's something they can find to justify the cost of tactical marines. Theoretical assaults that never happen because of how 8th works.

You know just two weeks ago I played a list that was 40 Tactical Marines in Rhinos. 37 of them charged me.

Unfortunately I was playing my Baneblade list so charging me wasn't the secret to winning and was probably a bad move.

But perhaps some food for thought.

I assault with Tacs all the time. That's part of how you get their value. It's not that they kill a lot, it's that they stay in the fight longer. Value in assault is not just S, A and WS, but also T, Sv. and Morale. If you're left with just one or two marines, and they can still get a charge off againt a non-fly vehicle or unit, that target unit often can't shoot next turn, or loses another model to morale, or can't control an objective because there is an Obsec unit still standing on it.

Just a few games ago I held an objective with one guy left from a bolter squad, against 7 pathfinders.

Yes, Devastators could technically do the same thing (except the ObSec example) but you position them differently on the table. Because of the higher points investment and the importance of not moving, you keep them more protected and still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You know just two weeks ago I played a list that was 40 Tactical Marines in Rhinos. 37 of them charged me.

Unfortunately I was playing my Baneblade list so charging me wasn't the secret to winning and was probably a bad move.

But perhaps some food for thought.

Yeah, that's basically how I dealt with Tau in 7th.

Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

Martel732 wrote:
Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

A: I bring a lot of marines. 70+

B: Drop Pods! They can't really avoid them getting close.

Martel732 wrote:
Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

I let them get that close.

Turn 1: They go first, move + advance + smoke on 4 Rhinos.

Turn 1 bottom: I blow up the Rhinos.

Turn 2: They move up and charge.

They've just moved 12 + d6 + 3 + 6", then charged 2d6. That's 21+3d6 inch total movement, top of turn 2.

Really not hard to get.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

A: I bring a lot of marines. 70+

B: Drop Pods! They can't really avoid them getting close.

They can turn off your pods with screens. When I say I can't assault, I mean I can't meaningfully assault. I can assault all the guardsmen or gaunts I want. I just can never get to the dakkafex or the wyvern. Because they take that possibility away in their deployment. They turn off assault elements by just setting up.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

I let them get that close.

Turn 1: They go first, move + advance + smoke on 4 Rhinos.

Turn 1 bottom: I blow up the Rhinos.

Turn 2: They move up and charge.

They've just moved 12 + d6 + 3 + 6", then charged 2d6. That's 21+3d6 inch total movement, top of turn 2.

Really not hard to get.

And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Martel732 wrote:
And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving to "meaningful" assaults.

Actually, I don't bring screening units with my Baneblades. They absolutely made it in, with a few models that didn't die to Overwatch, and then got crushed undertread.

But my point is: tactical marines can absolutely assault. In your example versus Sisters of Battle, their screening units are 9ppm Sisters of Battle. That's actually a pretty good target for a charging tac squad.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Who are you playing that lets any marine get that close? Because I want to play them, too.

A: I bring a lot of marines. 70+

B: Drop Pods! They can't really avoid them getting close.

They can turn off your pods with screens. When I say I can't assault, I mean I can't meaningfully assault. I can assault all the guardsmen or gaunts I want. I just can never get to the dakkafex or the wyvern. Because they take that possibility away in their deployment. They turn off assault elements by just setting up.

It has worked for me, that's all I can say. That it hasn't worked for you, I don't know what to tell you.

Part of it is that I'm not necessarily assaulting, a lot of what I'm doing is getting to a forward firing base and shooting. The assualt against pathfinders I referred to earlier was by a guy who came up in a Rhino, shot and assaulted some Fire Warriors, and then later made it to the objective which the remaining Pathfinders tried to clear him from. That particular marine was involved in two assaults that game, the last assault was for at least two rounds.

The Pods carry a lot of shooting, firing past screens at whatever I have to deal with. At least initially. Sometimes they charge too. I'm sure I assaulted with some of them in that particular game as well. Because they can deploy, shoot and charge, sometimes they do it all in one turn, and at different targets. Come to think of it, I did a lot of assaulting that game. Even in the backfield against some Piranhas.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving to "meaningful" assaults.

Actually, I don't bring screening units with my Baneblades. They absolutely made it in, with a few models that didn't die to Overwatch, and then got crushed undertread.

But my point is: tactical marines can absolutely assault. In your example versus Sisters of Battle, their screening units are 9ppm Sisters of Battle. That's actually a pretty good target for a charging tac squad.

I didn't mean to move the goalposts. I should have said meaningful from the get go. My opponents let me assault 4 ppm losers all day long.

BA workflow: Move up one turn -> get shot to hell by opponent -> turn 2, assault screening units -> screens fall back and then rest of list shoots BA to hell -> turn 3, no BA left to continue assaulting. This is similar for all assault lists except BA run out of assault chumps first because our stuff is crazy overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving to "meaningful" assaults.

Actually, I don't bring screening units with my Baneblades. They absolutely made it in, with a few models that didn't die to Overwatch, and then got crushed undertread.

But my point is: tactical marines can absolutely assault. In your example versus Sisters of Battle, their screening units are 9ppm Sisters of Battle. That's actually a pretty good target for a charging tac squad.

I didn't mean to move the goalposts. I should have said meaningful from the get go.

BA workflow: Move up one turn -> get shot to hell by opponent -> turn 2, assault screening units -> screens fall back and then rest of list shoots BA to hell -> turn 3, no BA left to continue assaulting. This is similar for all assault lists except BA run out of assault chumps first.

That's a neat list of what happens when you play against IG and Tyranids.

Now, please, tell me what you do against the other ~14 factions without screens?

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving to "meaningful" assaults.

Actually, I don't bring screening units with my Baneblades. They absolutely made it in, with a few models that didn't die to Overwatch, and then got crushed undertread.

But my point is: tactical marines can absolutely assault. In your example versus Sisters of Battle, their screening units are 9ppm Sisters of Battle. That's actually a pretty good target for a charging tac squad.

I didn't mean to move the goalposts. I should have said meaningful from the get go. My opponents let me assault 4 ppm losers all day long.

BA workflow: Move up one turn -> get shot to hell by opponent -> turn 2, assault screening units -> screens fall back and then rest of list shoots BA to hell -> turn 3, no BA left to continue assaulting. This is similar for all assault lists except BA run out of assault chumps first because our stuff is crazy overcosted.

Don't buy as much of the shiny stuff. Buy more of the basic stuff.

All factions have better screens than marines for the most part.

Ad mech are getting 7ppm dudes
Sisters are 9ppm with 3/5 having stormbolters
Guardians are 8 ppm
etc

Those all sound pretty superior to marines to me as screens.

You don't need 4 ppm models to screen BA to death. You just need to buy a couple of turns while you table them with superior shooting. The 4 ppm models just make it so nothing can ever, ever go wrong. That's why I have a few wins in 8th. And most were against index lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And then they hit the meaningless screening units. Which prevent any kind of meaningful assault from ever occurring.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving to "meaningful" assaults.

Actually, I don't bring screening units with my Baneblades. They absolutely made it in, with a few models that didn't die to Overwatch, and then got crushed undertread.

But my point is: tactical marines can absolutely assault. In your example versus Sisters of Battle, their screening units are 9ppm Sisters of Battle. That's actually a pretty good target for a charging tac squad.

I didn't mean to move the goalposts. I should have said meaningful from the get go. My opponents let me assault 4 ppm losers all day long.

BA workflow: Move up one turn -> get shot to hell by opponent -> turn 2, assault screening units -> screens fall back and then rest of list shoots BA to hell -> turn 3, no BA left to continue assaulting. This is similar for all assault lists except BA run out of assault chumps first because our stuff is crazy overcosted.

Don't buy as much of the shiny stuff. Buy more of the basic stuff.

Marines don't have basic stuff. At least, not compared to the competition. Another part of the problem. At least, they're not priced as basic. They cheapest jump pack guy is an outrageous 16 ppm.

Not all non-Marines armies have viable screens.

Those 8ppm Guardians die relatively quickly to even Boltgun fire. Even outside rapidfire range. 8ppm Guardians take up more space, but die much faster per point than 13ppm Tacs (more than twice vs most firepower).

And how are you never in range to charge when faced with units with guns of 12"?

The specific example was in discussing "Super ObSec". The point was, against many other ObSec, Marines already have in in effect. This is because, if both armies have the same number of troops on the point, the Marines will charge the non-Marines. I'm not saying that happens often. What I'm saying is that improving their ObSec won't do much, as they already win those scenarios.

You might never charge with Tacs. I do. My opponents do. Tourny players don't for a variety of reasons. But one of the reasons Tacs don't charge is because most players know they can't give the Tacs a charge. And that typically costs them a lot. My Guardians might move faster than Tacs, but they can't engage the Tacs directly - they would lose badly. So Tacs control that matchup. Most min troop squads can't take a 5-man Tac or Dev squad backfielder - but a 5-man Tac squad can take a 5-man Kalabite or Corsair backfielder squad.

The opponent not charging because they'll lose or not engaging because they'll get charged are times Marine CC helps you, but you seem to not see it.

Martel was definitely referring to screening units stopping assault armies all along.