Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/12/20 20:17:47
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
then how is he ever useful? Or was before that range buff he got in the dex. That’s a lot to fit in 6”
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
then how is he ever useful? Or was before that range buff he got in the dex. That’s a lot to fit in 6”
Within 6" isn't too bad - you need just a sliver of each Onager base and one sliver of a Robot base for the whole unit. It isn't entirely within 6", which would be ridiculous.
Yeah but is anyone even using that much? 800 points is like six robots and a onager. That’s just to break even. If you then have dragoons running all over the place.....
You could cut the Dunecrawler for a fifth Kastelan (more consistent against a Daemon Primarch, though it is a bit riskier to have so many eggs in one basket) and 3x Mortars (takes pressure off your Kastelans against horde). Your call though.
I had considered something like it earlier because I was worried about only having 6 CP:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 399
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
2 Neutronager and 4 robots covers that easily lol
I’ve been tempted to take incendine combustors along with twin phosphors to deter people who think they can just charge the robots and tie them up. 4 robots is 8D6 heavy flamer shots in dakka-mode, ought to be enough to make em think twice for 24 points more than another heavy phosphor each. Now I just have to find a way to position my robots so that gits can’t abuse los blocking terrain to charge with Overwatch immunity :\
2017/12/20 21:28:00
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
A dunecrawler herd doesn't need Cawl. Another dunecrawler would get more hits for the point difference.
A robot herd is only even a thing with Cawl. 4+ or 5+ rerolling 1s sucks. You need the full cawl rerolls bad.
2017/12/20 21:35:18
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
A dunecrawler herd doesn't need Cawl. Another dunecrawler would get more hits for the point difference.
A robot herd is only even a thing with Cawl. 4+ or 5+ rerolling 1s sucks. You need the full cawl rerolls bad.
I dunno. Missing that one or two shot Neutron can be a game-changer. Being able to re-roll is huge.
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
A dunecrawler herd doesn't need Cawl. Another dunecrawler would get more hits for the point difference.
A robot herd is only even a thing with Cawl. 4+ or 5+ rerolling 1s sucks. You need the full cawl rerolls bad.
I dunno. Missing that one or two shot Neutron can be a game-changer. Being able to re-roll is huge.
that might be partially confirmation bias. adding 50% more shots is the same as rerolls for BS 4. less for BS 3. That's how guard does it. Weight of fire can and will outweigh accuracy if you have enough. Understanding where that line is however is mildly time intenstive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 21:49:09
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
A dunecrawler herd doesn't need Cawl. Another dunecrawler would get more hits for the point difference.
A robot herd is only even a thing with Cawl. 4+ or 5+ rerolling 1s sucks. You need the full cawl rerolls bad.
I dunno. Missing that one or two shot Neutron can be a game-changer. Being able to re-roll is huge.
Yeah, especially with Cawl ignoring the blank rolls from negative modifiers. I Have never run a non-Cawl onager in a ocmpetitive setting. But I am saying that the mathhammer makes a STYGIES dunecrawler that rerolls 1s only like 10% less accurate than a cawl-Onager that is rerolling 1s and 2s.
2017/12/21 00:04:04
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Hmm I think I'm going to use 2-3 Inquisitors as psychic defence. I could convert them to look like the Ordo Mechanicus (I think that's the name), they're cheap (55 stock) and provide nice powers. Terror looks nice to support a CC unit, as it prevents the target from firing in Overwatch. The power to auto-pass morale tests could be nice too, I think I'm going to use Greyfax near my precious units to deny better, and one Inquisitor on each side wherever they're needed. They also have access to some nice weaponry, I should really try this out.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2017/12/21 02:09:26
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Why not just primaris battle psyker instead? Inquisitors are bad for regimental keywords.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
2017/12/21 06:34:28
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
The Inquisition psychic discipline is more interesting for me as it affects Imperium units instead of Astra Militarum like the Psykana discipline, which is better for me since I don't run Astra Militarum in my army (except a small patrol of Scions sometimes). Also, if needed I can ditch them in a Null-Maiden Rhino with a few Sisters of Silence of mine so they can move around and make an anti-psyker force.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2017/12/21 07:48:05
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
The "auto-pass morale" power? Yeah I guess. I don't really super want that one for my army at least.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
2017/12/21 12:14:16
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Aaranis wrote: Hmm I think I'm going to use 2-3 Inquisitors as psychic defence. I could convert them to look like the Ordo Mechanicus (I think that's the name), they're cheap (55 stock) and provide nice powers. Terror looks nice to support a CC unit, as it prevents the target from firing in Overwatch. The power to auto-pass morale tests could be nice too, I think I'm going to use Greyfax near my precious units to deny better, and one Inquisitor on each side wherever they're needed. They also have access to some nice weaponry, I should really try this out.
I really don't know if I like it. Sure the idea is great, but it's also very costly (~ 200 points), eben without gear.
I think I would rather take 200 points more of AdMech stuff.
2017/12/21 12:26:09
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Heafstaag wrote: Do people use datasmiths to repair robots, or are they a waste of points?
I take one when I dont have the points to generate enough CP to blow 2 of them on binharic override. They've generally done nothing though. The matches I've played I pretty much clear out anything from the backfield asap then my robots are left to just be shot at. I do sometimes put the overwatch relic on the datasmith for when something charges my robots, but i've found it pretty ineffective.
Datasmiths are good for filling out cheap elites slots for bridages. If they were an HQ choice i'd take them over an enginseer any day.
2017/12/21 13:50:41
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
A dunecrawler herd doesn't need Cawl. Another dunecrawler would get more hits for the point difference.
A robot herd is only even a thing with Cawl. 4+ or 5+ rerolling 1s sucks. You need the full cawl rerolls bad.
I dunno. Missing that one or two shot Neutron can be a game-changer. Being able to re-roll is huge.
that might be partially confirmation bias. adding 50% more shots is the same as rerolls for BS 4. less for BS 3. That's how guard does it. Weight of fire can and will outweigh accuracy if you have enough. Understanding where that line is however is mildly time intenstive.
True enough, but because we are taking Cawl for the Robots, his benefits stacking with already solid units is just gravy. I have 550-660pt in Robots and at least 2-3 Dunecrawlers, the former requires the re-rolls, the latter is improved for it as well, even if less so.
Either way, Cawl is still just a fantastic force multiplier.
Yeah, especially with Cawl ignoring the blank rolls from negative modifiers. I Have never run a non-Cawl onager in a ocmpetitive setting. But I am saying that the mathhammer makes a STYGIES dunecrawler that rerolls 1s only like 10% less accurate than a cawl-Onager that is rerolling 1s and 2s.
Yup. That is such a crazy good benefit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 13:51:16
Has anyone run the numbers on Wrath of Mars for a full squad of Infiltrators vs. Dakka Kastelans?
I'm thinking of using some Infiltrators as "deep strike" meltas in a pinch. If I can get that for 110pts, that'd be awesome (although splurging for more isn't too bad for that ability).
Basically, is a 3+ or 2+ BS from Infiltrators with 25+ shots better than Dakka Kastelans with 3+ or 4+BS with 36 shots (and if you throw in Cawl, re-rolls)? That's currently 110pts vs 440pts+, so keep that in mind.
I'm thinking Infiltrators might be awesome in that regard - basically, meltadrop and cc for cheap.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
2017/12/21 18:25:51
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Ravemastaj wrote: Has anyone run the numbers on Wrath of Mars for a full squad of Infiltrators vs. Dakka Kastelans?
I'm thinking of using some Infiltrators as "deep strike" meltas in a pinch. If I can get that for 110pts, that'd be awesome (although splurging for more isn't too bad for that ability).
Basically, is a 3+ or 2+ BS from Infiltrators with 25+ shots better than Dakka Kastelans with 3+ or 4+BS with 36 shots (and if you throw in Cawl, re-rolls)? That's currently 110pts vs 440pts+, so keep that in mind.
I'm thinking Infiltrators might be awesome in that regard - basically, meltadrop and cc for cheap.
Yes, a 220 point 10 stack of MARS infiltrators does like 8 mortal wounds if they are getting 2s to hit rerolling 1s [protocol strategem, rerolling 1s to shoot canticle, wrath of mars]. That is more damage than 220 points of robots, but they die after the deepstrike and don't do as much damage as 550 points of robots per volley.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I was on the toilet today I was thinking ... our forgeworld dogmas aren't that great. When you think about it ... what is the MARS double canticle really doing? 2 shots at shroudpsalm? I care, but not really. And a lot of the time shroudpsalm doesn't matter because they are shooting lascannons at my onagers / robots and I am taking saves on my invul anyways. What if we just gave up on dogmas? The forgeworld specific strategems don't require that the detachment be mono forgeworld, only that the unit be from that forgeworld. And I really need troops for more CP. I still get canticles since my admech detachment is all admech units ... but I don't get the dogma bonus.
MARS / LUCIUS Battalion - no dogmas, but yes strategems MARS: - Cawl + Enginseer - 2x Neutronager with extra stubber - 5x Robots - 1x6 Rangers (hide out of LOS somewhere) LUCIUS - 1x10 Vanguard, 3x plasma, 1x tether - 1x10 Ranger, 3x plasma, 1x omnispex
This lets me deepstrike the two LUCIUS squads. On the turn I know I am dropping them in, I just pick the rerolling 1s in shooting phase canticle, give the vanguard the +2 to hit protocol, and have the rangers shoot at some valuable infantry in cover. This list starts with 9CP and spends 2 to deepstrike (that i might convert on a 5+).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:48:56
2017/12/21 18:41:25
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Ravemastaj wrote: Has anyone run the numbers on Wrath of Mars for a full squad of Infiltrators vs. Dakka Kastelans?
I'm thinking of using some Infiltrators as "deep strike" meltas in a pinch. If I can get that for 110pts, that'd be awesome (although splurging for more isn't too bad for that ability).
Basically, is a 3+ or 2+ BS from Infiltrators with 25+ shots better than Dakka Kastelans with 3+ or 4+BS with 36 shots (and if you throw in Cawl, re-rolls)? That's currently 110pts vs 440pts+, so keep that in mind.
I'm thinking Infiltrators might be awesome in that regard - basically, meltadrop and cc for cheap.
Yes, a 220 point 10 stack of MARS infiltrators does like 8 mortal wounds if they are getting 2s to hit rerolling 1s [protocol strategem, rerolling 1s to shoot canticle, wrath of mars]. That is more damage than 220 points of robots, but they die after the deepstrike and don't do as much damage as 550 points of robots per volley.
Indeed. And that’s only at 12” range, robots do it from safety across the board and with cawl support you’re not spending additional cp to increase their efficiency.
If only princeps were still characters :(
2017/12/21 19:46:52
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Very interesting thought Wulfey. I once considered putting a non-admech unit into the admech detachment but would lose the Dogma AND the Canticles.
With only mixing forge worlds, you keep the Canticles, but lose only the Dogma?
With the benefit being, no Dogma, but at least you get the Stratagems?
Could be good.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
2017/12/21 20:09:39
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
ph34r wrote: Very interesting thought Wulfey. I once considered putting a non-admech unit into the admech detachment but would lose the Dogma AND the Canticles.
With only mixing forge worlds, you keep the Canticles, but lose only the Dogma?
With the benefit being, no Dogma, but at least you get the Stratagems?
Could be good.
The basic problem with the admech battalion is that MARS skitarii suck. They don't want two canticles since they can't melee for crap, and they don't get any defensive benefits. And the MARS forgeworld trait is useless in most games until turn 2-3 when my MARS dragoons get in melee and I get a lucky roll on the double canticles. But I always pick shroudpsalm first turn anyways. The LUCIUS dogma is good (ignore -1 armor pen), but the real reason you take LUCIUS is so you can deepstrike. The deepstrike strategem only says LUCIUS UNIT, not LUCIUS UNIT in an all-LUCIUS detachment.
Deepstrike changes everything when it comes to skitarii squads. They stop being terrible because you can guarantee that they do damage on the turn they come in. If I drop the mortar squads (which may be free kill points anyways), I could even go whole hog and have 3x10 LUCIUS plasma drop teams. That is some scary stuff for armies that are relying on the 12" away -1 to hit tricks. On the round I know I am going to drop, I pick the reroll 1s canticle and put the boys on the table.
EDIT: the ditching dogmas trick gets you out of paying for the second enginseer. That is a 47 point savings. And that the 1 enginseer you bring can be MARS so he can fix the onagers and robots, wheras if you bring 2x enginseers in a LUCIUS battalion, those 2 LUCIUS enginseers can't fix any of your MARS tanks for some baffling reason. The point savings makes it easy to strap 3 more plasmas onto your third deepstrike squad.
EDIT2: I think this last list is actually what i wa slooking for. I think that dragoons are not going to be that great in the upcoming LVO meta due to the presence of eldar reapers. But 3x deepstriking squads with lots of high AP and ignore cover ... yes ... that is viable against reapers and great against LOW / artillery lists. Even against tyranids, at least I can guarantee 1 turn of shooting from my infantry before they are tied up thanks to the deepstrike.
EDIT3: now here is the super soup cheese nonsense play, make the 1 enginseer GRAIA. Then I can use the GRAIA 4+ 24" deny for 1CP if I am desparate to stop a game winning psychic power. The 1 enginseer can still fix the basilisks, and Cawl should be enough for 5x robots and 2x neutrons.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 20:33:46
2017/12/21 21:12:48
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
As interesting and useful as this is, sounds like a major headache keeping track of each unit and what FW they’re from...though I guess with no dogmas it doesn’t make that much difference.
2017/12/21 21:33:28
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Keep in mind that when you're deciding between Cawl and TPD, it's not just a TPD. You practically have enough points to put another Dunecrawler in. You lose a 1/6 chance to hit (maybe 1/3 against a -1 to hit), but you gain a 2/3 to hit with that new Crawler, ontop of the extra wounds, split shooting, and whatnot. That or another Kastelan Robot.
Somewhere above 700-800 points, the force multiplier exceeds the performance of an additional unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 21:34:48
2017/12/21 23:10:23
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Ravemastaj wrote: Has anyone run the numbers on Wrath of Mars for a full squad of Infiltrators vs. Dakka Kastelans?
I'm thinking of using some Infiltrators as "deep strike" meltas in a pinch. If I can get that for 110pts, that'd be awesome (although splurging for more isn't too bad for that ability).
Basically, is a 3+ or 2+ BS from Infiltrators with 25+ shots better than Dakka Kastelans with 3+ or 4+BS with 36 shots (and if you throw in Cawl, re-rolls)? That's currently 110pts vs 440pts+, so keep that in mind.
I'm thinking Infiltrators might be awesome in that regard - basically, meltadrop and cc for cheap.
Yes, a 220 point 10 stack of MARS infiltrators does like 8 mortal wounds if they are getting 2s to hit rerolling 1s [protocol strategem, rerolling 1s to shoot canticle, wrath of mars]. That is more damage than 220 points of robots, but they die after the deepstrike and don't do as much damage as 550 points of robots per volley.
Indeed. And that’s only at 12” range, robots do it from safety across the board and with cawl support you’re not spending additional cp to increase their efficiency.
If only princeps were still characters :(
Except you've simply compared 440pts to 110. Also, with everyone important getting -1 to hit after 12 inches, the close range nature of infiltrators becomes more of a boon than a liability. Think of it this way:
An eldar tank managed to survive your Laser Onagers, and only has a few wounds left. You infiltrated your dudes within 12 inches of the vehicle, and within 9 inches of one of his screening forces. If you managed to find a decent spot for 10 infiltrators, it gives you the opportunity to essentially Melta a tank and get locked in close combat with someone else. With 550pts of infiltrators, you can have one "melta" squad of 10, and 3 more 5 man squads to guarantee at least one charge goes off. Against eldar T3 and invul saves, the amount of damage you can put out at Str6 and taser goads is phenomenal. It also locks up their annoying infantry combos (characters turning their -3ap dakka into -4ap dakka is murder against any allied vehicles - their whole ARMY is a Wrath of Mars in that respect).
Other than that, I really just don't want to play Dakkabots if that's all we have. -1 to hit against all targets makes it virtually useless, and getting within 12in simply gets them charged by Tyranids, infantry, anybody. All they can do in this meta is sit in the back and miss with Cawl until he gets sniped out by mortal wounds. Then they just sit there doing nothing. It's pathetic.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
2017/03/22 16:18:32
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
then how is he ever useful? Or was before that range buff he got in the dex. That’s a lot to fit in 6”
It's 9" with the warlord trait which is what you're probably taking
2017/12/22 10:46:37
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
then how is he ever useful? Or was before that range buff he got in the dex. That’s a lot to fit in 6”
It's 9" with the warlord trait which is what you're probably taking
Nobody should ever be making Cawl their Warlord...
2017/12/22 12:47:39
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
I did the math awhile back. Cawl is less efficient than TDP at 1000 points if we're just comparing the effect of the aura on average dice outcomes. You need roughly 700-800 points of artillery to make him worthwhile.
then how is he ever useful? Or was before that range buff he got in the dex. That’s a lot to fit in 6”
It's 9" with the warlord trait which is what you're probably taking
Nobody should ever be making Cawl their Warlord...
Why?
He's difficult to kill, has some of the best weapons in the game and will almost always be behind your artillery line. Giving more units rerolls is always good.
