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I find it funny how the original Trilogy unified everyone. I mean, just about everyone LOVED it.

Now people just argue about it.

Its def not the Star Wars I grew up with.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can’t even nail down your own standpoint, and seem to shift it whenever a counter point is raised.

Once again:

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re the one insisting there must be a bloodline for someone to be important

Or actually ...

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mind that Rey's parents are just failures who sold her. It's fine with me that her DNA is not the cause of her destiny.

 Manchu wrote:
it is OK for the source of this great destiny NOT to be the identity of her parents

 Manchu wrote:
For the third time, it's fine that she isn't [established character's] family member.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what, there is no point arguing with idiots.

You can’t even nail down your own standpoint, and seem to shift it whenever a counter point is raised.

You've yet to acknowledge that no one is arguing for bloodlines.

One, last, parting shot......Han’s line as that scene opens? ‘You can forget about those Imperial slugs, I told you we’d outrun ‘em’.

Yes, because obviously a starship chase and successful evasion takes... no time?

And with that, I’m out. I shall save my explaining the obvious to the wilfully contrary for when I’m actually being paid to deal with it, yeah?

Wait... the 'obvious' is what? You've repeated a line of philosophical drivel as if it were a point of film theory or storytelling practicality, argued that story and character building don't matter, as well as argued against a position no one was taking.

KTG17 wrote:
I find it funny how the original Trilogy unified everyone. I mean, just about everyone LOVED it.

This... isn't actually true. There just wasn't a convenient space to argue about it.
There was a lot of 'vapid, mindless entertainment' accusations tossed at the original trilogy.

I'll tell you how much times have changed. Back in the day, would guys have given a crap who the parents of Rey's was? I mean, we all thought it was cool when good old DV shared the news with Luke, and I guess some expected something similar, and since there isn't, its kind of a let down. But even still, who the hell cares who her parents are?

We're in it for the lasers, light sabers, and space battles, people! COME ON!

KTG17 wrote:
I'll tell you how much times have changed. Back in the day, would guys have given a crap who the parents of Rey's was? I mean, we all thought it was cool when good old DV shared the news with Luke, and I guess some expected something similar, and since there isn't, its kind of a let down. But even still, who the hell cares who her parents are?

We're in it for the lasers, light sabers, and space battles, people! COME ON!

All flash and no trousers does not a successful story make.

I have never agreed with the arguments that Rey needs realistic training to fight with a lightsaber, etc.

The main thing Jedi mentors teach you is stuff about feelings. In the OT, the Force was all about feelings.

Obi-Wan in ANH: "Stretch out with your feelings."

Vader in ESB: "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

Luke in RotJ: "I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate."

By focusing on the "magical powers" aspect of the Force, the Prequels and now the Disney trilogy is missing the point.

 welshhoppo wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
I'll tell you how much times have changed. Back in the day, would guys have given a crap who the parents of Rey's was? I mean, we all thought it was cool when good old DV shared the news with Luke, and I guess some expected something similar, and since there isn't, its kind of a let down. But even still, who the hell cares who her parents are?

We're in it for the lasers, light sabers, and space battles, people! COME ON!

All flash and no trousers does not a successful story make.

Well, if you have two movies, one where it deals with who some chic's parents are, and another with lasers, light sabers, and space battles. . . I am going with the lasers, light sabers, and space battles!

Seriously everything is second behind those.

Honestly, the more i think on it, and the more i watch the movie (3x now) I hope that Reys parents are insignificant. Star Wars is about nobodys or ordinary people doing great things. Its about the everyman over coming impossible odds for the betterment of mankind.

Reys parents are pointless, they aren't in the story.
Think of it this way, in the prequels, no one was complaining about why we didn't know who Obi's parents are? Or that Anakin has no father....

I personally hope they get away from this Light vs Dark. I hope the 10,11,12 movies bring in the Yuuzhan Vong. Would be a fresh new spin on the Force (or lack of).

KTG17 wrote:
I am going with the lasers, light sabers, and space battles!

Seriously everything is second behind those.

How much do you like the Prequels?

 Manchu wrote:
I have never agreed with the arguments that Rey needs realistic training to fight with a lightsaber, etc.

The main thing Jedi mentors teach you is stuff about feelings. In the OT, the Force was all about feelings.

Obi-Wan in ANH: "Stretch out with your feelings."

Vader in ESB: "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

Luke in RotJ: "I feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate."

By focusing on the "magical powers" aspect of the Force, the Prequels and now the Disney trilogy is missing the point.

The films' portrayal of teaching the force has gone from learning the Tao Te Ching in a monastery to combat practice in Professor X's Danger Room.

KTG17 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
I'll tell you how much times have changed. Back in the day, would guys have given a crap who the parents of Rey's was? I mean, we all thought it was cool when good old DV shared the news with Luke, and I guess some expected something similar, and since there isn't, its kind of a let down. But even still, who the hell cares who her parents are?

We're in it for the lasers, light sabers, and space battles, people! COME ON!

All flash and no trousers does not a successful story make.

Well, if you have two movies, one where it deals with who some chic's parents are, and another with lasers, light sabers, and space battles. . . I am going with the lasers, light sabers, and space battles!

Seriously everything is second behind those.

Well if the first was made by Christopher Nolan and the latter was directed by Michael Bay......

Easy choice.

 Manchu wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
I am going with the lasers, light sabers, and space battles!

Seriously everything is second behind those.

How much do you like the Prequels?

I hate the prequels, but honestly they feel more like Star Wars than TFA and TLJ.

But a chic trying to find her parents probably can be found in hundreds of stories. Light sabers and tie fighters... not so many. Rey's parents are not the reason we tune into Star Wars. It is the flash.

KTG17 wrote:
I'll tell you how much times have changed. Back in the day, would guys have given a crap who the parents of Rey's was?

That isn't a change in times. Luke's parents mattered because that is presented early on in the original film as important (fellow student betrayed and murdered your father)
Anakin's weird parentage sort of mattered because he was creepily obsessed, and she had a bizarre spontaneous pregnancy story

Rey's parentage got weight because it was presented as mattering. And then inexplicably tossed over the shoulder like it was a heirloom lightsaber or some other worthless trash.
Had Rey wanted to get off Jakku and not return and not had visions of being abandoned by people who specifically leave and not die, it wouldn't be an issue. But it was presented as pretty much the sole relevant issue for her character. Even when offered a co-pilot's seat on the legendary Millenium Falcon, her reaction was 'But my parents- have to get back to Jakku.' If she were just a random orphan without this driving need to get back to a horrible life on a hell planet where she's routinely shortchanged on basic rations, she'd have said 'Hell yes,' and everyone would've moved on.

So blame Abrams for setting it up as her most important character trait, and Johnson for abjectly refusing to catch the softball tossed his way, because trivial things like character development would interrupt his CGI masturbation time.

Voss wrote:

This... isn't actually true. There just wasn't a convenient space to argue about it.
There was a lot of 'vapid, mindless entertainment' accusations tossed at the original trilogy.

I don't know who you were hanging out with, but me and my friends loved it. We had the toys, fought the battles, and didn't argue over this petty crap.

 Manchu wrote:

As Voss also explained, The structure, imagery, and even the dialog of TFA (and TLJ!) all indicate that Rey is special. But neither TFA nor TLJ address why. This is a problem because her being special is constantly important to the story/ies.

That's easy, she grew up on a desert planet. All Star Wars protagonists need to do that.

Voss wrote:
Rey's parentage got weight because it was presented as mattering. And then inexplicably tossed over the shoulder like it was a heirloom lightsaber or some other worthless trash.

LOL well phrased! But the whole "who are my parents" thing was treated as important in TLJ. Rey cares about it quite a bit. The fact that her parents are nobody is the heart of a great scene between her and Kylo (as well as dumb, weird, inappropriate scene earlier in the Darkside Hole on Force Island). The issue is more like, OK fine it's not the identity of her parents that makes her special - but what is it? That's the part that gets tossed aside like the symbol of your father's redemption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:
That's easy, she grew up on a desert planet. All Star Wars protagonists need to do that.

"I used to live here, you know."

"You're gonna die here, you know."

Strangely prophetic!

Voss wrote:
So blame Abrams for setting it up as her most important character trait, and Johnson for abjectly refusing to catch the softball tossed his way.

Honestly, I can't understand how that plot line is getting so much attention. I could careless. It actually makes far more sense that she comes from nowhere and no one, cause that is what Star Wars is all about. The big guy versus the little guy.

Far more of a hole in the plot is the fact the rebels are slightly faster than the imperial ships, cause they are lighter, IN SPACE. Or during that retreat, Fynn and that useless Rose fly off in real time to ANOTHER PLANET and back again. But then again this follows TFA with Han flying the Falcon THROUGH a force field barely scraping the surface of a planet, but within walking distance to where Rey was.

Look you have to accept these movies are poorly written in general and be done with it.

KTG17, I think we're being very generous to TLJ by only talking about its strongest parts. The fact that we aren't talking about the worthless characters of Rose and Admiral Who Cares and the absolutely inane dead end subplots those nobodies dragged into the film with them is pretty polite, if you ask me.

KTG17 wrote:

Voss wrote:

This... isn't actually true. There just wasn't a convenient space to argue about it.
There was a lot of 'vapid, mindless entertainment' accusations tossed at the original trilogy.

I don't know who you were hanging out with, but me and my friends loved it. We had the toys, fought the battles, and didn't argue over this petty crap.

Uh... sure. Kids largely did think it was good.
But when you said 'unified everyone' and 'everyone loved it,' I assumed since you were talking to adults with critical thinking skills, you were talking about the overall audience and critical reception.
Not what your playground buddies were impressed by.

Dynas wrote:Star Wars is about nobodys or ordinary people doing great things.

...
Actually, nobodies and ordinary people are amazingly absent from all Star Wars films. The closest even seen are the people calmly evacuating Bespin after Lando gives his Imperial Takeover announcement, or the background people in the random sports bar in Attack of the Clones. But they're explicitly background people with no lines, names or relevance. They don't do anything, let alone 'great things.' That's solely reserved for the heroes and villains.

KTG17 wrote:

Voss wrote:
So blame Abrams for setting it up as her most important character trait, and Johnson for abjectly refusing to catch the softball tossed his way.

Honestly, I can't understand how that plot line is getting so much attention. I could careless. It actually makes far more sense that she comes from nowhere and no one, cause that is what Star Wars is all about. The big guy versus the little guy.

Yep, that tiny Empire against a gathering of nobility. No, wait. That secret heir... No. The prophesied child? Nope, has that too.
Um, what?

Voss I am having trouble understanding your points, other than to assume you didn't like the film. Which is fine. I read all the leaks and even watched some leaked footage, swore I would hate it, got talked into going by a friend who had seen it, and found it far more of an enjoyable experience than I thought I would. But I rolled my eyes at a lot of things too. I've been rolling my eyes over Star Wars since Jar Jar and the two headed Pod Race announcer.

Sir Alec was right. He knew peeps would look too much into these movies.

KTG17 wrote:
Voss I am having trouble understanding your points, other than to assume you didn't like the film. Which is fine. I read all the leaks and even watched some leaked footage, swore I would hate it, got talked into going by a friend who had seen it, and found it far more of an enjoyable experience than I thought I would. But I rolled my eyes at a lot of things too. I've been rolling my eyes over Star Wars since Jar Jar and the two headed Pod Race announcer.

Sir Alec was right. He knew peeps would look too much into these movies.

I'm not sure what you find confusing. You claimed star wars had a nearly universally positive reception. At the time, among adult movie goers and critics, it did not.

As for the little guy or nobodies- that doesn't describe the rebel alliance at all. Senators, Princesses, Luke the Heir to the Chosen One. It just doesn't work. The prequels make this even worse, but even at the beginning its pretty well beyond the scope of ordinary or little people. Heck the 'slave' character is on the Imperial side!


But yes, I don't particularly care for either of these films. From the standpoint of character development and storytelling, I find them absolutely terrible.
It isn't about looking too much into them, but looking at the very basic elements of film-making and storytelling. The original is a bit trite and copies a lot, but follows a basic recognizable storytelling structure, and does so effectively. These are just a muddled mess of ideas, put together rather incoherently and sold on the idea that the only way to enjoy them is to turn off the brain and go 'Oooo' at the pretty lights. I've no interest in that.

 Manchu wrote:

"I used to live here, you know."

"You're gonna die here, you know."

Strangely prophetic!

Luke became one with the force on an ocean planet, Ahch-To.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Obi-Wan taught Luke absolutely feth all.

He told him his take on The Force. And put him up against a remote. And. That’s. It. that’s the sum total of his tutelage under Obi-Wan. There’s no time for anything else. He gives him a lightsabre, but doesn’t show him how to fight with it. At all. There’s no time. No opportunity. Not between ANH and Bespin. At all.

He taught him how to block shots behind a blast visor.


Besides I think your taking it the wrong way, Old Ben and Yoda didn't need to teach Luke how to fight. They taught him how to feel the force, then the force does all the fighting for him and he becomes a conduit for it.

Then he gets his butt pummelled by Vader because that's not enough. Op when he kicks Vaders butt back, he's an angry force conduit. So he's actually using the force for his own gains.

And that's a bingo.

I was more referring to the promise of endless SW movies stretching from end to end of consumer lifetimes.

Voss wrote:

I'm not sure what you find confusing. You claimed star wars had a nearly universally positive reception. At the time, among adult movie goers and critics, it did not.

Were you around back Star Wars came out? Because I was, and it was HUGE. Did some critics dislike it? Sure, there are always moron critics that don't like anything. But Star Wars was huge. And yes, everyone open to the idea loved it. I cannot for the life of me ever remember people tearing apart plot points over the original three movies like we're doing here today over Rey.

BTW, I even got to meet Leia and shake Darth Vader's hand. Carrie was being smothered by bigger kids asking for autographs (she was in costume btw), so I was trying to get Vader's attention (I was a real little kid back then), and failing. Finally my grandmother, who brought me to the event, smacked Prowse's arm (who was in full Vader costume) and told him with some attitude, "Hey, he wants to meet you."

Vader turned, looked down at me, and shoot my hand. And I am smiling again just thinking about it.

Of course, my grandma smacking Vader in the arm was something smile at too. Miss you, Grandma.

KTG17 wrote:

Voss wrote:

I'm not sure what you find confusing. You claimed star wars had a nearly universally positive reception. At the time, among adult movie goers and critics, it did not.

Were you around back Star Wars came out? Because I was, and it was HUGE. Did some critics dislike it? Sure, there are always moron critics that don't like anything. But Star Wars was huge. And yes, everyone open to the idea loved it. I cannot for the life of me ever remember people tearing apart plot points over the original three movies like we're doing here today over Rey. .

Yes, I was. And I know people who didn't like it, remember reading and hearing about people who didn't like it, and remember far too many comic shops and game stores where people sat around having pretty much the same conversations.
Was it huge? Yes. Even ignoring critics, was it a universally positive reception? No.

Even in early 80s it wasn't unusual for people to have differing opinions, have some that genuinely disliked something popular and others who just wanted to tear down whatever was popular.

That is ridiculous. You must have been living around really bitter people. If you couldn't like A New Hope, what could you like?

KTG17 wrote:
That is ridiculous. You must have been living around really bitter people. If you couldn't like A New Hope, what could you like?

I moved around a lot, and met lots of different people. Very few were 'bitter'

Space Fantasy wasn't exactly mainstream or even accepted. Traditional war movies, political thrillers or romances were a lot more socially acceptable.

No, those kinds of movies were the standard at the time, which is why Star Wars was so huge. It came out of nowhere and bought all sorts of new stuff. Made Mark, Harrison, and Carrie household names overnight.

Obviously in your restricted memory you can believe what you want, but Star Wars has huge not only with A New Hope, but right up to Return of the Jedi. The fact that they are STILL making toys of those characters to this day says something about that movie's legacy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke, Luke, Rey, Captain Chrome, and the Solo/Leia divorce questions were not answered.

While annoying as that may be, good story telling keeps that audience in suspense until the end of the tale. TLJ is the middle part of this particular tale, not the end and thus it has zero obligation to give any of those answers.
I, too, would have liked some clarification of some of the issues left open by TFA, but I cannot fault TLJ for not delivering them as it was not its job to do so.
Its job was to build the suspense to a crescendo and leave the audience wanting more. Clearly it achieved this goal as the movie was not only an edge of your seat entertaining watch, but by not answering those questions as well as raising more clearly leaves the audience wanting more

-

I think it's past the point of no return. I don't think those answers can be answered in IX.

If they turn round and say Rey's parents aren't really no good hustlers, that leaves the audience feeling cheated, because they were expressly told something else.

Rey's Mary Sue persona in TFA and her mastery of The Force, could only have 3 logical outcomes: mind wipe, Luke's daughter, or created by The Force itself.

She had none of those, because the director didn't give a damn

Nonsense. Those are all constraints that you're placing upon the background.

It's shown, multiple times, that a Force user can (and usually is) born to non-sensitive parents. Because without that, the monastic and supposedly celibate Jedi order would've died out centuries ago.

Indeed, so far as I can tell, Luke and Leia are the exception for having an explicitly force sensitive parent.

So why shouldn't Rey be a nobody? Fan theories abounding don't count here, because they're based on wishful thinking rather than actual evidence.

Because all the previews to TFA had Skywalker's speech about his family and "you have it" and then shifts to Rey.