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KTG17 wrote:
No, those kinds of movies were the standard at the time, which is why Star Wars was so huge. It came out of nowhere and bought all sorts of new stuff. Made Mark, Harrison, and Carrie household names overnight.

Obviously in your restricted memory you can believe what you want, but Star Wars has huge not only with A New Hope, but right up to Return of the Jedi. The fact that they are STILL making toys of those characters to this day says something about that movie's legacy.

It's really good at selling toys to (boy) children, yes.


But, I'm honestly not sure we're having the same conversation.

I'm not denying it was big. But it wasn't universally praised.
Heck, until the turn of the century, I knew quite a few people who had never seen any star wars movies at all.

That you find it unbelievable or ridiculous is a little puzzling.

Voss wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
No, those kinds of movies were the standard at the time, which is why Star Wars was so huge. It came out of nowhere and bought all sorts of new stuff. Made Mark, Harrison, and Carrie household names overnight.

Obviously in your restricted memory you can believe what you want, but Star Wars has huge not only with A New Hope, but right up to Return of the Jedi. The fact that they are STILL making toys of those characters to this day says something about that movie's legacy.

It's really good at selling toys to (boy) children, yes.


But, I'm honestly not sure we're having the same conversation.

I'm not denying it was big. But it wasn't universally praised.
Heck, until the turn of the century, I knew quite a few people who had never seen any star wars movies at all.

That you find it unbelievable or ridiculous is a little puzzling.

People who haven't seen the original trilogy are inherently flawed and will be shipped to a FEMA "evacuation" camp for processing and eventual recycling to feed the next generation of consumers.

Don"t argue. You know it's true.

ender502


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke, Luke, Rey, Captain Chrome, and the Solo/Leia divorce questions were not answered.

While annoying as that may be, good story telling keeps that audience in suspense until the end of the tale. TLJ is the middle part of this particular tale, not the end and thus it has zero obligation to give any of those answers.
I, too, would have liked some clarification of some of the issues left open by TFA, but I cannot fault TLJ for not delivering them as it was not its job to do so.
Its job was to build the suspense to a crescendo and leave the audience wanting more. Clearly it achieved this goal as the movie was not only an edge of your seat entertaining watch, but by not answering those questions as well as raising more clearly leaves the audience wanting more

-

I think it's past the point of no return. I don't think those answers can be answered in IX.

If they turn round and say Rey's parents aren't really no good hustlers, that leaves the audience feeling cheated, because they were expressly told something else.

Rey's Mary Sue persona in TFA and her mastery of The Force, could only have 3 logical outcomes: mind wipe, Luke's daughter, or created by The Force itself.

She had none of those, because the director didn't give a damn

Nonsense. Those are all constraints that you're placing upon the background.

It's shown, multiple times, that a Force user can (and usually is) born to non-sensitive parents. Because without that, the monastic and supposedly celibate Jedi order would've died out centuries ago.

Indeed, so far as I can tell, Luke and Leia are the exception for having an explicitly force sensitive parent.

So why shouldn't Rey be a nobody? Fan theories abounding don't count here, because they're based on wishful thinking rather than actual evidence.

Because all the previews to TFA had Skywalker's speech about his family and "you have it" and then shifts to Rey.

I believe that is called misdirection.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Obi-Wan taught Luke absolutely feth all.

He told him his take on The Force. And put him up against a remote. And. That’s. It. that’s the sum total of his tutelage under Obi-Wan. There’s no time for anything else. He gives him a lightsabre, but doesn’t show him how to fight with it. At all. There’s no time. No opportunity. Not between ANH and Bespin. At all.

Incorrect. We see at the beginning of ESP that Kenobi ghost has been training him. We also know that ESB is a good bit after so there has been training for some time.

We also know his big ANH moment was shooting the torps, but others were trying too. It was difficult but not impossible. Plus he had no resistance and could take his time at that point.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke, Luke, Rey, Captain Chrome, and the Solo/Leia divorce questions were not answered.

While annoying as that may be, good story telling keeps that audience in suspense until the end of the tale. TLJ is the middle part of this particular tale, not the end and thus it has zero obligation to give any of those answers.
I, too, would have liked some clarification of some of the issues left open by TFA, but I cannot fault TLJ for not delivering them as it was not its job to do so.
Its job was to build the suspense to a crescendo and leave the audience wanting more. Clearly it achieved this goal as the movie was not only an edge of your seat entertaining watch, but by not answering those questions as well as raising more clearly leaves the audience wanting more

-

I think it's past the point of no return. I don't think those answers can be answered in IX.

If they turn round and say Rey's parents aren't really no good hustlers, that leaves the audience feeling cheated, because they were expressly told something else.

Kinda like Obi-wan expressly told Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin.
We all know how that turned out.

"You'll find that many of the truths the audience clings too depend greatly on their own point of view."

-

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:She just is.

If this is the response as to WHY something is, it's wrong.

"It just is" is a cop-out answer. In ANY form of media, be it magically related or not. Macbeth doesn't kill Duncan "just because". Harry Potter isn't the Chosen One "because he is". Luke doesn't fight Darth Vader "because he does". To admit so it to deny causality itself.

Macbeth does it because his wife manipulates him.
Harry is Chosen because Voldemort set in chain a set of events that made him "chosen" over Neville.
Luke is because of the murder of his family, his bloodline, and Obi-Wan's manipulation.

Rey? WHY is she chosen? Why didn't the force choose the random kid in the stable on Kanto Bight? Why? To quote Han, "That's not how the Force works!". That's all people are asking for. It doesn't need to be bloodline, in fact, I'm overjoyed it ISN'T. I just want a reason WHY Rey is so naturally talented with the Force. Luke's explanation was that he was the son of Anakin. Anakin's was that he was literally BORN of the Force. What's Rey's? She's not worked for it - which would have been fine. She's not trained for it. She has NO discernable reason as for our current understanding to be as good as she is, and we should just accept that because "she just is"?

I mean this as no offense, but I cannot disagree more.

Her destiny is to be the light sides champion. That’s it. She’s been picked. There’s no explanation needed other than ‘as the darkness rises, so the light to meet it’. The dark side has its champion. And now does the light side.

Except with Kylo, we see a reason. Luke showed his willingness to kill Ben out of fear for what he could become. It led Ben to become Kylo. In that respect, it's almost Greek in it's tragedy and scale. Luke sees darkness in Ben, and considers ending it. Ben sees this lapse in Luke, and is consumed by the darkness because of it.

Rey, we see none. Ben doesn't become Kylo "just because". It's because of being betrayed and nearly murdered by your uncle and teacher. He's a champion because he has Anakin Skywalker's blood in his veins. Rey is the champion because she's good with the force? Why? No bloodline, so what is it that makes her good?

Why?

Kylo almost literally tells Rey and the audience that her backstory doesn't matter and not to worry about it. After a brief period of reflection, she drops it without question and it leads to no further development in her character or in the story.

If it's good enough for the protagonist, I suppose Disney thought it would be good enough for the audience

Also the hyperspace ramming breaks Star Wars Fleet Battles

How is the First Order a threat if you can weaponise hyperspace and destroy the largest vessels. Even civilian ships have hyperdrives and they have droids so aren't losing people. You can effectively destroy a Battleship with your car.

How on earth are they going to justify any Star Wars fleet battle where this tactic isn't used? Why wasn't it used in previous battles? I mean there are going to be moments in future films where people will ask "why don't they just hyperspace ram the enemy ships?"

I think RJ really didn't think that one through. He was after a cool scene and didn't put thought into it.

On hindsight Emperor Vader and Grand Moff Skywalker chasing the remnants of the Alliance would have been such a good movie compared to this.

M.

 Galef wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke, Luke, Rey, Captain Chrome, and the Solo/Leia divorce questions were not answered.

While annoying as that may be, good story telling keeps that audience in suspense until the end of the tale. TLJ is the middle part of this particular tale, not the end and thus it has zero obligation to give any of those answers.
I, too, would have liked some clarification of some of the issues left open by TFA, but I cannot fault TLJ for not delivering them as it was not its job to do so.
Its job was to build the suspense to a crescendo and leave the audience wanting more. Clearly it achieved this goal as the movie was not only an edge of your seat entertaining watch, but by not answering those questions as well as raising more clearly leaves the audience wanting more

-

I think it's past the point of no return. I don't think those answers can be answered in IX.

If they turn round and say Rey's parents aren't really no good hustlers, that leaves the audience feeling cheated, because they were expressly told something else.

Kinda like Obi-wan expressly told Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin.
We all know how that turned out.

Yes, Luke felt betrayed and called him on it, leading to a significant growth in his character. Luke's character arc in ESB was structured around that lie, and the ramifications of it. It also goes on to inform their conversation in the next movie, and why Luke's part in the Rebellion (and the story of Star Wars) revolves almost exclusively around Vader. It doesn't matter if the Rebellion blows up the Death Star or not (nor whether or not they're on it at the time): Luke abandons that mission. What matters to Luke is 'redeeming' (or in failing, killing) his father. Even if the mission fails, even if he himself dies in the process. Dad is the central focus, not the Empire, nor even the Emperor.

Rather importantly, when the topic of Luke's father originally came up in Star Wars, (coincidentally or not, depending on if you believe George had that in mind when he wrote SW), that scene was framed and structured as that conversation mattered. The camera changes, Kenobi pauses, strokes his beard and the conversational (and IIRC, musical) tone of the scene changes. Even without knowing what's going on, an aware viewer is given clues that this actually matters in a way that 'spice freighter' and other trappings of the conversation really don't.

If, at the climatic moment of confrontation, Vader's and Luke's conversation in ESB ended with 'Skywalker, Skywalker. Oh, yeah, I remember killing that guy. Whatever.,' it becomes an entirely different story. A much weaker story... like this one.

Rey had a single personal stake attached to her character, a single thing to connect with the audience who can at least imagine her pain at being alone with essentially no one.
Now instead, she's Charlie Brown, and Lucy just yoinked the football. Haha.

Further, too. There is a big difference between Kenobi's lie, and Ren's potential lie (if Do_I_Not_Like_That's theory is correct): one character lying to the other, and the film lying to the audience. An audience is willing to be fooled if it sets up a later reveal or if it turns out to be of significance later, they're not willing to be told something factually wrong, and that is a pretty significant difference.

Personally I don't think it will pan out that way..., but I also don't think Abrams will feel any obligation to maintain consistency with Johnson's treatment of his plot point (or any other theme or arc), and is going to do whatever he wants with it. Potentially leading to more inconsistencies and another jumbled mess. Part of that is Johnson was too tidy. He chopped anything that didn't interest him off, and tidied up every end he could find, which is not something you do in part 2 of 3. Abrams (or whoever's writing part 9) has to be sitting and staring at a blank page for the introduction thinking, 'Welp. This baby is going to have to start cold. How to get from that to an active story in 30 minutes or less?'

Saw it again tonight, have to bump my review up a point. A couple of my criticisms have to be withdrawn:

* The Finn/Rose plot still feels like an RPG side quest gone wrong, and Finn gets zero character development or even reason to exist in this movie, but at least it's shorter than it felt like the first time. And the "how did the traitor know" question is answered, he's actually present to overhear Poe and Finn talking about the transports (when Poe is saying "hurry, she's getting ready to run with the transports") and knows enough to give away the plan. It's still stupid that the cloak seems to be little more than "if they're too lazy and incompetent to bother looking we can escape, otherwise we all die", but it's a bit less stupid with that in mind.

* Luke dying at the end makes a lot more sense if you catch what Kylo says when he first links with Rey: "no, you can't be here, the effort would kill you". It's established that projecting yourself across the galaxy requires a fatal, or at least very risky, level of effort. It even adds a bit to his comment to Kylo about how Luke will haunt him forever. Kylo knows what the illusion costs, he knows that even if he didn't stab Luke with the lightsaber directly the confrontation killed him.

* The ramming scene is still stupid from a fluff point of view, but damn is it a beautiful shot. I mean, I already knew that one, but it needs repeating.

On the other hand, some of my criticism stays true:

* The "oh FFS just talk to each other" problem is still irritating. Half the movie just ceases to exist if Poe and Admiral Purplehair actually talk to each other instead of competing to see who can be the bigger .

* Too much of the movie is based on arbitrary technobabble plot devices. Tracking a ship through hyperspace is impossible! But not only is it possible, the method is so obvious that a random maintenance worker on the rebel ship knows how it works, how to disable it, and even exactly how many minutes they will have to make their escape once it is down. And the previously mentioned "cloak" that only works when the plot requires it. And the hyperspace ram that only happens once the plot requires it, instead of evacuating the support ships and ramming them once they reached their last fuel reserves. If you're going to have "how this particular device works" be a plot point then it needs to be consistent and plausible.

* I really dislike the whole "we're the good guys, war is bad, and we're going to show it by using stupid tactics to avoid losses". It's a war, people die in a war. Yes, I get that Poe has to have his moment of realizing that just shooting stuff isn't always the answer, but FFS you're trapped in a dead-end mine with no hope of escape or survival except destroying the siege gun. If you break off the attack to save a few pilots you only save them for a short time, and then everyone else dies too. It doesn't matter if it's a suicide run, you make the suicde run. Same thing with the bomber attack. Fighters are expendable munitions, you commit them to a fight and some of them will not be coming back. If you aren't willing to lose bombers in an engagement that is a ridiculously one-sided trade in your favor then what's the point in having them in the first place? Even if the bomber losses had been ten times higher it still would have been a decisive win, and an attack that you repeat every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Rey had a single personal stake attached to her character, a single thing to connect with the audience who can at least imagine her pain at being alone with essentially no one.
Now instead, she's Charlie Brown, and Lucy just yoinked the football. Haha.

Strongly disagree here. The whole point of the way they did it is that she IS no one. Her pain is real, there is not going to be a magic "happily ever after" scene where she finds her parents again and becomes someone. If she's going to become anyone it's going to be because she does it herself, not because the universe hands her an identity the easy way. It really undermines that development if you let her have the easy way out and find her parents. Even if they're awful parents and her story becomes "kill them to stop the horror" it's still a case of her being handed an identity instead of forging her own, just in a different direction.

Strongly disagree here. The whole point of the way they did it is that she IS no one. Her pain is real, there is not going to be a magic "happily ever after" scene where she finds her parents again and becomes someone. If she's going to become anyone it's going to be because she does it herself, not because the universe hands her an identity the easy way. It really undermines that development if you let her have the easy way out and find her parents. Even if they're awful parents and her story becomes "kill them to stop the horror" it's still a case of her being handed an identity instead of forging her own, just in a different direction.

Eh. I don't agree. It isn't about her identity- she has one of those (at least in theory), and it certainly isn't that she's 'no one.' She lost that label the second the light saber starting showing her visions- She's Super Special Force Wielder Rey (because reasons).

It's about the emotional connection of the audience to the character, making her relatable, giving her some connection to the universe, and something like a goal. As it stands, she has nothing and no one, she's just 'the unrelatable Space Wizard.' And it certainly was handed to her- this way there IS no development to undermine. Finding her parents could well be her Epic Task, even (especially) if they're unimportant.

So she still doesn't have any reason to be involved in this story. And now has special abilities that might actually help find her real parents, which was the driving force of her childhood. Whether it gives her an identity or not, the most human thing she could do is wander off from the plot and try to find them.



And for the record? Being abandoned, growing up a scavenger and going through all sorts of crap isn't 'the easy way.' As much as Luke didn't particularly like his life as a teenage moisture farmer, he had it much easier. Leia was raised a noble. That didn't cheapen their identities or development. Neither knew their birth parents, but they group up with food, clothing, shelter, friends and lots (or lots and lots) of stuff. As weird as moisture farming on a desert planet seems, Owen and Beru have a pretty expansive operation, and have enough money that the used car (droid) salesmen come to them.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only thing worse than the movie is the fact people can't stop talking about the movie. It's like a social disease.

And I mean that. It's very hard talking to people about it because either they a) are reacting to the weak and shallow plot or b) recounting the special effects (for good or for bad), or c) responding to the diversity of the film.

The movie was designed to have this effect. And now the negative reactions are being blamed on the alt-right. The best thing anyone can do is not talk about it anymore.

Where is anyone trying to tie negative reactions to the Alt Right? That's ridiculous and they should be ridiculed once then ignored forever.

https://nylon.com/articles/star-wars-last-jedi-alt-right

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/

http://www.newsweek.com/did-alt-right-tank-star-wars-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-score-trump-fan-unhappy-754901

Starting to notice how the media likes to cover people's complaints about genderswapped sci-fi characters, as if there's something sinister going on. 4chan is the source of the claims, which is not exactly a reliable source, nor does it exactly represent the alt-right.

There was similar coverage of the new Dr. Who.

I mean, if a movie has girls instead of boys, are we bad people for seeing the holes in the plot and complaining about them?

Voss wrote:
It's about the emotional connection of the audience to the character, making her relatable, giving her some connection to the universe, and something like a goal.

How does finding out that her parents sucked and dumped her make it impossible to relate to her? The main character doesn't need heroic or interesting parents to have a compelling story. Plenty of characters have started off with "abandoned by their parents, life sucks" and still been interesting characters that you can relate to. TBH it makes it easier to relate to her, not harder. She isn't the lost princess, or the daughter of Luke and Palpatine's reanimated corpse, or whatever other Important Heroic Family people wanted her to have. She's just an ordinary person, abandoned by parents who cared more about getting drunk than having a child. And now she's suffered the pain of no longer being able to hide from that reality, and tell herself stories about how they're really coming back someday.

As it stands, she has nothing and no one, she's just 'the Space Wizard.'

Nothing, except that whole "stop Kylo Ren, save the galaxy, restore the jedi" thing...

Whether it gives her an identity or not, the most human thing she could do is wander off from the plot and try to find them.

Sure, if you want a boring movie the main characters could all abandon the plot and go off and live quiet peaceful lives in some boring corner of the galaxy. Poe could retire from flying and go live on a farm and never attract the empire's attention, Finn could have just kept on mopping floors, etc. Part of the hero's journey is leaving behind all those normal-person desires and, you know, becoming a hero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
And for the record? Being abandoned, growing up a scavenger and going through all sorts of crap isn't 'the easy way.' As much as Luke didn't particularly like his life as a teenage moisture farmer, he had it much easier. Leia was raised a noble. That didn't cheapen their identities or development. Neither knew their birth parents, but they group up with food, clothing, shelter, friends and lots (or lots and lots) of stuff. As weird as moisture farming on a desert planet seems, Owen and Beru have a pretty expansive operation, and have enough money that the used car (droid) salesmen come to them.

I don't mean easy from a "how much food do you have" point of view, I mean easy from a plot point of view. The easy and lazy way out with Rey is to have her parents be Significant Star Wars Characters and just hand her a plot to follow. Whether it's rescuing them from the evil empire, or stopping their horrible evils, or whatever, all she has to do is learn who they are and then follow the script. The hard way for her is to have her fears confirmed, that there is no miracle coming. Whoever she's going to be she isn't going to inherit the role, she has to earn it for herself.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only thing worse than the movie is the fact people can't stop talking about the movie. It's like a social disease.

And I mean that. It's very hard talking to people about it because either they a) are reacting to the weak and shallow plot or b) recounting the special effects (for good or for bad), or c) responding to the diversity of the film.

The movie was designed to have this effect. And now the negative reactions are being blamed on the alt-right. The best thing anyone can do is not talk about it anymore.

Where is anyone trying to tie negative reactions to the Alt Right? That's ridiculous and they should be ridiculed once then ignored forever.

https://nylon.com/articles/star-wars-last-jedi-alt-right

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-alt-right-female-characters-1201910095/

http://www.newsweek.com/did-alt-right-tank-star-wars-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-score-trump-fan-unhappy-754901

Starting to notice how the media likes to cover people's complaints about genderswapped sci-fi characters, as if there's something sinister going on. 4chan is the source of the claims, which is not exactly a reliable source, nor does it exactly represent the alt-right.

There was similar coverage of the new Dr. Who.

I mean, if a movie has girls instead of boys, are we bad people for seeing the holes in the plot and complaining about them?

On the other hand, more than one poster in this very thread have used the term SJW unironically, so yeah. I'm not in any way saying there aren't many justifiable complaints that can be lobbed at this movie (many good ones posted here), but if the diversity of the cast is one, then I tend to just ignore the rest of the complaints by that person.

This is the first I've heard of anyone complaining about diversity in the casting.

Overall I enjoyed it.

The space bombs, a bit silly in some regards but given how so many of the original trilogy battles were frame by frame recreation of WWII footage I can see the nod to the old B-17 footage and sheer terror of airmen falling to their doom trying to unjam the bomb wracks at an absolutely crucial moment for the mission success. Feels a bit out of place when set in space but I liked it as an homage to a unique and intensely terrifying situation of the era.


Luke I really enjoyed every bit of his role in here, he's a failed Jedi and that's fine IMO since during the trilogy he repeatedly screws up and walks away from the Jedi path in order to do what is right and noble in his heart. So his un-Jedi like struggle with guilt and emotional attachment is long established. Later he blames himself for failing with Ben/Kylo but in many ways he repeatedly mirrors Obi-Wan's failings with Anakin/Vader. He withdraws from the world at large and becomes a hermit and hides himself away from the force just as Obi-Wan did, (Vader's line about a presence he hasn't felt in a long time) he struggles knowing that his failures have in turn unleashed a great evil upon the universe and destroyed what remained of the new Jedi just as Obi-Wan's failure destroyed the old Jedi order.

Luke was never meant to be a by the books Jedi, so in that sense he's a failure but those failures grant him greater understanding of who he is as person and his role with the force. He's to become a true master of the force but perhaps not ever a master Jedi, which is the whole point of Yoda nuking the temple. Luke's path to greater enlightenment is his own unique path to walk, not found in following what's written in some ancient codes and the histories of others. The ways of the Jedi are just a stepping stone at the start of becoming a master of the force. Only when he faces his past and failures and learns to overcome them by letting go can he find inner harmony because grief holds him back every bit as much as pain and rage do.

When Obi-Wan confronts Vader he let's go knowing ultimately that it's Vader who chose darkness and not from Obi-Wan's failure (or was destined to darkness depending on the point of view) when he declares that being struck down will give him a far greater power it's his transition to a true force master as he's reached the point he is finally free from his own guilt which is mirrored when Luke confront Kylo. Both give their lives so their friends can escape, at which point both transition to a greater existence in harmony within the force (enlightenment) A similar situation can be found with Yoda who retains guilt over the last of the Jedi and only enters his own enlightenment once he has found a successor to the true ways of the force with Luke.

Another parallel is within Luke's force projection, his lightsaber is blue rather than green which reflects the color of Obi-Wan's lightsaber as he faced Vader for the final time. Luke built the green saber while he was in training and still clouded by doubt and guilt so it was flawed as it carried his internal conflict. Once he accepts his fate and role with greater awareness he appears with a blue one which I don't think is a coincidence.

I'll go into some detail here, but I think the biggest problem with the new trilogy is lack of continuity of the fluff.

For example, we see in previous films, e.g ROTJ, that Luke is prepared to sacrifice all, because he still sees some good in the most evil man in the galaxy. Does that strike you as a character that would walk away from his own nephew at the first sign of trouble? Not for me

As for Rey...

Of course people from humble backgrounds can become force sensitive, even if such a thing has never happened in their family history. We'll call these untrained people Level 1.

Now, due to the vastness of the galaxy, a force sensitive person may never hear about the Jedi, the Sith, or even what the force is. They just know they have talent, an ability unique to them, that they can't explain.

So it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they can move rocks, or windows shatter when they get really mad, or they're very lucky at cards and gambling. etc etc

For a level 1 to get 'promoted' they need training in light sabre handling, years of discipline etc etc

Look how hard it was for Luke to be trained, and see how even Anakin struggled in the prequels, and these were people with Jedi pedigree in the family.

Let's say for argument's sake that Obi Wan is level 4, Vader is level 4.5, Yoda and Palpatine are level 5 force users, and let's say Ren is level 3. He's had training, fought a few battles.

For an untrained level 1 like Rey to defeat a level 3 like Ren? I'm not buying it.

Look how Luke nearly died in his first duel with Vader, and Luke had training, and natural Jedi pedigree. Rey was none of this.

So yeah, to conclude, it's poor story-telling, and an abandonement of previous continuity established over decades. That's the problem with the new trilogy.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


For an untrained level 1 like Rey to defeat a level 3 like Ren? I'm not buying it.

Look how Luke nearly died in his first duel with Vader, and Luke had training, and natural Jedi pedigree. Rey was none of this.

The playing field between Rey and Kylo is much more level than between Luke and Vader.

For a start, Kylo is far less talented than Vader (powerful, but as Snoke notes, raw and untamed).
Second, he's just taken a Bowcaster shot to the gut. The same Bowcaster that earlier in the film we see used to knock down multiple Stormtroopers like skittles with a fully charged shot.
Thirdly, he's a complete wreck mentally. He's just murdered Han and is coming to terms with the fact that hasn't given him the power or solace that he was seeking, and he's at a complete loss.
It's also likely that since destroying the temple, Kylo has never fought another lightsaber wielder, and even then, they were semi-trained apprentices. Vader meanwhile has spent the around 20 years hunting down Jedi, defeating two of the greatest Jedi fighters (Ashoka and Obi-wan) within a few years of the duel on Bespin.

Rey, on the other hand, has several advantages.
She is clearly a talented fighter already, whereas there's little indication Luke was at the time (some of the canon comics have him sabering a bit between IV and V, but mostly only against mooks, the one time he meets Vader he doesn't even get a swing in). While a staff is no lightsaber, she has the fitness, control and poise of an experienced fighter.
She is also fighting to protect Finn, Kylo is only fighting because he doesn't know what else to do. That gives Rey a definite psychological advantage.
Her latent Force powers are clearly very strong. Why that is the case is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion, combat between Jedi and Sith (or equivalents) are as much about strength with The Force as they are skill with a saber, and Rey is clearly no ordinary apprentice at that point.

I'd also note that Rey is distinctly losing that fight until Kylo forces her to the ledge and she gives herself over to The Force, which then gives her the edge to beat him back. At that point though, and perhaps taking into account the suggestion I made a few pages back that the Light Side is souping her up specifically to challenge Ren, you have to question how much she's actually in control there and how much is just a combination of instinct and being guided by The Force.

 Peregrine wrote:
She's just an ordinary person, abandoned by parents who cared more about getting drunk than having a child. And now she's suffered the pain of no longer being able to hide from that reality, and tell herself stories about how they're really coming back someday.

But she's an "ordinary person" in the same sense that Michael Oher is, so not at all.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


For an untrained level 1 like Rey to defeat a level 3 like Ren? I'm not buying it.

Look how Luke nearly died in his first duel with Vader, and Luke had training, and natural Jedi pedigree. Rey was none of this.

The playing field between Rey and Kylo is much more level than between Luke and Vader.

For a start, Kylo is far less talented than Vader (powerful, but as Snoke notes, raw and untamed).
Second, he's just taken a Bowcaster shot to the gut. The same Bowcaster that earlier in the film we see used to knock down multiple Stormtroopers like skittles with a fully charged shot.
Thirdly, he's a complete wreck mentally. He's just murdered Han and is coming to terms with the fact that hasn't given him the power or solace that he was seeking, and he's at a complete loss.
It's also likely that since destroying the temple, Kylo has never fought another lightsaber wielder, and even then, they were semi-trained apprentices. Vader meanwhile has spent the around 20 years hunting down Jedi, defeating two of the greatest Jedi fighters (Ashoka and Obi-wan) within a few years of the duel on Bespin.

Rey, on the other hand, has several advantages.
She is clearly a talented fighter already, whereas there's little indication Luke was at the time (some of the canon comics have him sabering a bit between IV and V, but mostly only against mooks, the one time he meets Vader he doesn't even get a swing in). While a staff is no lightsaber, she has the fitness, control and poise of an experienced fighter.
She is also fighting to protect Finn, Kylo is only fighting because he doesn't know what else to do. That gives Rey a definite psychological advantage.
Her latent Force powers are clearly very strong. Why that is the case is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion, combat between Jedi and Sith (or equivalents) are as much about strength with The Force as they are skill with a saber, and Rey is clearly no ordinary apprentice at that point.

I'd also note that Rey is distinctly losing that fight until Kylo forces her to the ledge and she gives herself over to The Force, which then gives her the edge to beat him back. At that point though, and perhaps taking into account the suggestion I made a few pages back that the Light Side is souping her up specifically to challenge Ren, you have to question how much she's actually in control there and how much is just a combination of instinct and being guided by The Force.

Which would have been perfectly fine had she actually done any training in the Last Jedi. My take has always been that the Lightsaber is clearly serving the same narrative purpose as a Samurai Sword. You cannot simply pick it you and swing it around you a few times and call yourself a master.

I mean I was watching a clip from Star Wars Rebels where Kanan is training Sabine how to use the Darksaber. But he forces her to use sticks because she is simply untrained and seriously has a go at her for not taking his instruction or the practicing seriously. As he acknowledges later on to Hera, Sabine is a trained Mandalorian who was at the Imperial Academy for a while and a Bounty Hunter, she is an exceptionally gifted fighter; but even she still needs to practice before he feels comfortable even letting her near a lightsaber. If a Mandalorian can't just pick you a lightsaber and master it then why should a scavenger on Jakku who has never received any kind of formal military training or fought in combat.

I mean Rebels isn't old or obscure EU material its their current animated show. It doesn't demean Sabine to be told she needs to practice since we all know she probably is going to master it. All this amounts to is playing the game. Which for me is the problem with Rey, she clearly isn't playing the game when it comes to lightsaber training.

They had a perfect opportunity for Luke to train her using a lightsaber and that issue would have went away. However RJ insisted that Luke would refuse to train her. The insinuation being that SHE DID NOT NEED TO BE TRAINED WITH A LIGHTSABER even though Snoke reminds us that she has never held a lightsaber in her life. In episode 9, lets face it, they will depict her as a full fledged Jedi Master. They have not even given the slightest lip service to the notion that she needed to train. That is bad writing if a childrens show gets this right; but a franchise film cannot. Rey cannot become a master swordswoman without an explanation.

Believe me, I would enjoy nothing more than to see Rey be like Satele Shan in the Hope Cinematic and be awesome. But if you establish she has not been trained as a Jedi you do have to go through those motions. Otherwise, Kylo Ren should defeat her easily in a lightsaber duel, as should have Snokes Praetorians.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The insinuation being that SHE DID NOT NEED TO BE TRAINED WITH A LIGHTSABER even though Snoke reminds us that she has never held a lightsaber in her life.

She hadn't held a lightsaber before (which is not literally true, of course). She had clearly held and used other melee weapons, as you can see from her exercise routine in TLJ. She runs through it with her staff, which she has demonstrated experience and skill with, and then she does the same thing with the lightsaber. Is it exactly the same weapon? No, but let's not act like she was completely untrained and didn't even know which end to poke the enemy with. And remember, Snoke is taunting Kylo in that scene, of course he's going to dismiss Rey's skill and portray her as an inferior opponent and a humiliating loss.

The bulk of Sabine's training with the Darksaber is establishing a connection to the blade itself, as she is already competent with the technique. It's clear from the moment Rey picks up Luke's old saber that that connection immediately exists (for whatever reason). That's further emphasised when the saber flying past Kylo to her.

Thus, Rey has demonstrated the the things needed to competently use a lightsaber; a connection to the Force, a connection to the blade itself and the practical skill as a combatant.

And really, the whole thing about SHE MUST DO THE TRAINING feels like treating the movies as a video game, where you have to grind XP and level up until you can start farming the final boss. Of course Rey couldn't win, she's only a level 15 warrior, Kylo is at least level 30! We need to see Rey turn in some more quests and definitely get some better gear! Thankfully good fiction doesn't work that way.

 Paradigm wrote:
The bulk of Sabine's training with the Darksaber is establishing a connection to the blade itself, as she is already competent with the technique. It's clear from the moment Rey picks up Luke's old saber that that connection immediately exists (for whatever reason). That's further emphasised when the saber flying past Kylo to her.

Thus, Rey has demonstrated the the things needed to competently use a lightsaber; a connection to the Force, a connection to the blade itself and the practical skill as a combatant.

The implication being that bonding with a weapon should be a personal thing and take time. Something which Rey does not do.

If it was simply about establishing a bond with a particular weapon then why have Sabine train with sticks if there isn't also a level of reason to first get some training wheels. Clearly that is the starting point for training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
And really, the whole thing about SHE MUST DO THE TRAINING feels like treating the movies as a video game, where you have to grind XP and level up until you can start farming the final boss. Of course Rey couldn't win, she's only a level 15 warrior, Kylo is at least level 30! We need to see Rey turn in some more quests and definitely get some better gear! Thankfully good fiction doesn't work that way.

Training is part of a heroes journey, ESPECIALLY in martial arts or Samurai films on which the Jedi are heavily inspired. If the point of Reys arc is that she must master the ways of the Jedi to destroy Kylo Ren it demeans any sense of journey if she attains those skills without even the flimsiest pretext of actually having to train.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The insinuation being that SHE DID NOT NEED TO BE TRAINED WITH A LIGHTSABER even though Snoke reminds us that she has never held a lightsaber in her life.

She hadn't held a lightsaber before (which is not literally true, of course). She had clearly held and used other melee weapons, as you can see from her exercise routine in TLJ. She runs through it with her staff, which she has demonstrated experience and skill with, and then she does the same thing with the lightsaber. Is it exactly the same weapon? No, but let's not act like she was completely untrained and didn't even know which end to poke the enemy with. And remember, Snoke is taunting Kylo in that scene, of course he's going to dismiss Rey's skill and portray her as an inferior opponent and a humiliating loss.

Competence in self defense does not make you a master swordswoman. I mean two unarmed thugs are a tough challenge for her in the scavangers base when they try to steal the droid. Whereas Sabine is by that point a very experienced member of the Rebellion, has killed a lot of Imperials and is a Mandalorian trained from birth to know nothing but war. Yet she still needs to spend time bonding with and learning to use the Darksaber?

She is not being depicted as a novice like Ezra. That fight with the Praetorians was depicted as full Jedi Knight mode. They are clearly depicting her as the a master jedi. Yoda gives her the seal of approval at the end of LJ; so shes clearly a full fledged Jedi Knight after a few days swinging the thing around without any guide of training.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Training is part of a heroes journey, ESPECIALLY in martial arts or Samurai films on which the Jedi are heavily inspired. If the point of Reys arc is that she must master the ways of the Jedi to destroy Kylo Ren it demeans any sense of journey if she attains those skills without even the flimsiest pretext of actually having to train.

You'd have a point, if lightsaber combat was anything but a side point compared to the real story. The battle is one of wills, not swords. Who will turn, who is stronger in the force, etc. The swords are just an expression of that battle, a pretty show to let the audience know what is going on. I mean, look at the lightsaber fights in TLJ: Rey chops up a rock, Rey swings at a defenseless Luke, Rey flails uselessly at Snoke, Kylo kills Snoke with a sneak attack, Rey and Kylo mop up some anonymous background characters whose sole purpose is to die and show that they're allied for the moment, and then Kylo takes some swings at a ghost he can't possibly hurt. The entire battle between Rey and Kylo is fought with words. And guess what the one thing we explicitly see Rey getting lessons in is? Wisdom and understanding of the force.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The insinuation being that SHE DID NOT NEED TO BE TRAINED WITH A LIGHTSABER even though Snoke reminds us that she has never held a lightsaber in her life.

She hadn't held a lightsaber before (which is not literally true, of course). She had clearly held and used other melee weapons, as you can see from her exercise routine in TLJ. She runs through it with her staff, which she has demonstrated experience and skill with, and then she does the same thing with the lightsaber. Is it exactly the same weapon? No, but let's not act like she was completely untrained and didn't even know which end to poke the enemy with. And remember, Snoke is taunting Kylo in that scene, of course he's going to dismiss Rey's skill and portray her as an inferior opponent and a humiliating loss.

By that logic, that's like saying that somebody who can fire a bow and arrow could handle a 18 inch naval gun. They are after all both missile weapons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
The bulk of Sabine's training with the Darksaber is establishing a connection to the blade itself, as she is already competent with the technique. It's clear from the moment Rey picks up Luke's old saber that that connection immediately exists (for whatever reason). That's further emphasised when the saber flying past Kylo to her.

Thus, Rey has demonstrated the the things needed to competently use a lightsaber; a connection to the Force, a connection to the blade itself and the practical skill as a combatant.

Didn't Luke have his father's old light sabre in the OT? I don't remember there being a father/son connection to that.

I could be wrong.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The insinuation being that SHE DID NOT NEED TO BE TRAINED WITH A LIGHTSABER even though Snoke reminds us that she has never held a lightsaber in her life.

She hadn't held a lightsaber before (which is not literally true, of course). She had clearly held and used other melee weapons, as you can see from her exercise routine in TLJ. She runs through it with her staff, which she has demonstrated experience and skill with, and then she does the same thing with the lightsaber. Is it exactly the same weapon? No, but let's not act like she was completely untrained and didn't even know which end to poke the enemy with. And remember, Snoke is taunting Kylo in that scene, of course he's going to dismiss Rey's skill and portray her as an inferior opponent and a humiliating loss.

By that logic, that's like saying that somebody who can fire a bow and arrow could handle a 18 inch naval gun. They are after all both missile weapons...

That's not remotely comparable and you know that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not sure how it's left following the Disney buy-out, but....

The Khyber crystal would, still canonically, be chosen by The Right Jedi. This is shown in an episode of Clone Wars where some Younglings are taken to find their own crystals, and the trials therein.

Sith however have used artificial crystals, and that's why their blades are red. But, I'm not 100% sure if that is still canonical.

How cannon is the current comic run? Vader had a recent arc where they explain that Sith get their sabers by hunting down and killing a Jedi and taking theirs, which causes the kyber to “bleed” and turn red.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Training is part of a heroes journey, ESPECIALLY in martial arts or Samurai films on which the Jedi are heavily inspired. If the point of Reys arc is that she must master the ways of the Jedi to destroy Kylo Ren it demeans any sense of journey if she attains those skills without even the flimsiest pretext of actually having to train.

You'd have a point, if lightsaber combat was anything but a side point compared to the real story. The battle is one of wills, not swords. Who will turn, who is stronger in the force, etc. The swords are just an expression of that battle, a pretty show to let the audience know what is going on. I mean, look at the lightsaber fights in TLJ: Rey chops up a rock, Rey swings at a defenseless Luke, Rey flails uselessly at Snoke, Kylo kills Snoke with a sneak attack, Rey and Kylo mop up some anonymous background characters whose sole purpose is to die and show that they're allied for the moment, and then Kylo takes some swings at a ghost he can't possibly hurt. The entire battle between Rey and Kylo is fought with words. And guess what the one thing we explicitly see Rey getting lessons in is? Wisdom and understanding of the force.

It definitely is not a side point, it is a major visual spectacle and part of watching Star Wars. The reason Rey has that duel in TFA is to force a lightsaber fight into that film when she really had no business beating the big bad. In TLJ they shunt a fight with Snokes Praetorians in. They clearly want big flashy lightsaber fights in the film. So its not a pure drama where they don't need to explain Rey becoming a master with a lightsaber.

Plus you're ignoring that there is clearly going to be a huge lightsaber duel that will settle things between Rey and Kylo. They are going to Duel of Fates here. If you want the spectacle you have to provide a rationalization for why Rey is a master swordswoman. That battle is not going to be fought with just words. Do you really think Rey will still be portrayed as a novice in the final film? After Yoda gave the certified Jedi stamp of approval.

As I have stressed earlier it contradicts canon:

* We see Jedi younglings training with lightsabers in prequels

* They have a master and apprentice system.

* The Jedi live in academies.

* We see Obi Wan train Luke who does that blindfold test in the first film.

* Luke trains with Yoda on Dagobah.

* We had the Clone Wars with Ahsoka beng mentored by Anakin.

* We have Kanan training Ezra and Sabine

It has never been implied that any force sensitive can pick up a lightsaber and become a Jedi Master on their own without any practice. That is precisely the sort of thinking that characters get criticized for, Kanan to Sabine in particular. Its validating negative behavior. On some basic level, even a prodigy has to learn and practice from others.

Plus if Disney is really going to make this how the force works then how do you explain all of the previous training scenes in canon Star Wars? Surely Ezra could just pick up a lightsaber and learn everything he needs just as he goes. He doesn't need advice or guidance or need to train. When Rey refounds the Jedi are they really not going to have her take on apprentices and train them in lightsaber combat.

I am telling you now, it will be the most cringe worthy scene if we have Rey lecturing a Padawan on lightsaber techniques and combat when she knows absolutely nothing about it.

In fact they could have at least had it so one of those books was actually about the various lightsaber forms and had Rey practice using that. Instead, what she cuts through a big rock and that constitutes training?

Everything mentioned above is 100% correct and I agree. However, this isnt Star Wars of the 1980s and 90s anymore. I actually think JJ is a weak story teller, as evident in what he did with Star Trek. You just have to accept in each movie there will be a plot, and the characters will be able to do whatever it takes to move that plot forward, regardless of how ridiculous it is.