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Except that TCW only did that for Maul AFTER the same thing was done in the comics a while earlier.

6 or one, half dozen of another.

Yeah, it's bad that both did that!

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of "Snoke isn't really dead" theories flying around the net. Anyone here think this may have legs?

It's like the Indoctrination Theory in Mass Effect: it's evidence that your storytelling is so terrible that there are people who think "the guy we saw sliced in half before his ship was smashed to pieces is actually alive" is less awful than "the powerful psychic who was listening to Kylo's thoughts right then got caught by surprise and died like a chump."

I'm actually intensely curious as to why Johnson thinks Precognitive Visions should be precisely accurate but all three people that have them basically get a Zero in Correct Interpretation.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I too prefer the more nuanced take on the Force of KOTOR than the black & white take of most of the Star Wars films.

I had hoped this was the path Disney was going down with the sequel trilogy (Luke's line "Its time for the Jedi to end") but nope, it appears that they're just rehashing the same old Star Wars stories we already got in the other trilogies.

I got the vibe from the trailers that heavy 'borrowing' from KOTOR 2 was on the cards, sadly they backed down from Luke going full on war on god like Kreia and just made him grumpy uncle Jedi

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An important point about the reception of this film is that the great majority of people going to see it don't know what "canon" even means, let's alone care about it in relation to SW or any other fandom "franchise".

Consequently, we don't care if Rey is supposed to have/not have Force powers due to being the descendant/not being the descendant of X Force Family (Skywalker.)

We only care that Rey is a fun, believable character on screen, who delivers a great performance with a bunch of good lines and scenes.

I know 10 people who have seen the film - only one of which was a massive star wars fan, the others including me quite liked them as action films - nothing more to them tbh.

Of those, one really enjoyed it, the rest of us thought it was a poorly written, overlong film with little attention to plot or characters - none of us care about the Extended Universe - we went to enjoy ourselves and were not entertained.

Ray is a standard action hero - far better ones than her in the cinema this year, indeed every year, but she was not the issue for us - that was the pace and the plot - or lack of the latter. - the two combine so that the ghaping narrative holes are much more obvious than if the pace was faster.

This idea that Only superfans hate the film is wrong.

I imagine they could bring Snoke back as a sort of Sith Force Ghost akin to Yoda, Obi Wan and (now) Luke. Something to do with the black Kyber crystal he wears as a ring? Maybe the crystal captured and preserved the essence of his spirit or something. Maybe if Kylo attempts to wear the ring as a symbol of office as Supreme Leader, Snoke's spirit will attempt to posses him.

But Snoke is definitely physically dead I think.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An important point about the reception of this film is that the great majority of people going to see it don't know what "canon" even means, let's alone care about it in relation to SW or any other fandom "franchise".

Considering most of the people I went to see it with knew nothing more of Star Wars beyond seeing the films (not TCW or Rebels), and they all said it was poor.
You don't have to be a superfan to dislike it. You don't need to be new to like it. But if lots of people are disliking it, does it matter what their relation to Star Wars is?

Consequently, we don't care if Rey is supposed to have/not have Force powers due to being the descendant/not being the descendant of X Force Family (Skywalker.)

Agreed. I love how Rey's power isn't tied to the Skywalker dynasty. It's a positive thing that power isn't tied to your birth.

The issue is that, at the current moment (emphasis this), we do no know WHY Rey is strong.

Anakin was strong with the Force because they outright told us why (Chosen One + "midichlorians").
Luke was strong with the Force because of being descended from Anakin, but realistically, he is TAUGHT all of his Force abilities and guided in them (Obi-Wan guides him when sparring against the droid, and again on the Death Star Run.)

Rey is not explained WHY she is so powerful. Will this be answered? Hopefully, probably. But right now, in it's own standing, Rey's ability is not explained adequately.

We only care that Rey is a fun, believable character on screen, who delivers a great performance with a bunch of good lines and scenes.

And for me, is she?
No.

Is Daisy Ridley's performance good? Yes. Does she have some good moments? Yes.
Is she a fun, believable character? No, not to me.

I hope I get retroactively disproven, but as it currently stands, I do not think so.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Rey is not explained WHY she is so powerful. Will this be answered? Hopefully, probably. But right now, in it's own standing, Rey's ability is not explained adequately.

It's fairy tale Magic, it doesn't do or need explanation (every step away from force-cooties is good)

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Rey is not explained WHY she is so powerful. Will this be answered? Hopefully, probably. But right now, in it's own standing, Rey's ability is not explained adequately.

It's fairy tale Magic, it doesn't do or need explanation (every step away from force-cooties is good)

I find it's the combination of a lack of explanation and also a lack of development that makes me not enjoy Rey's character like I feel I could. One or the other would make her a more likeable character to me.

Maybe we'll get that in the third film, but really it needs to be something built upon across all 3 films not just dumped on you at the end (assuming we get anything, I'm guessing with JJ coming back we might get more as Johnson seemed to just enjoy tearing down expectations to the point, IMO, it hurt the progression of the movies, whereas JJ seemed to be more in to building up the story rather than just knocking down expectations).

Whilst I can see wanting to put your own stamp on it I was hoping for more from Mr J as Looper was passable despite time travel and Willis, two massive millstones in any film project

I think TFA and TLJ could be compared to Superman Returns and Man of Steel, both flawed, one out of nostalgia and one out of ill-considered deconstruction

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I too prefer the more nuanced take on the Force of KOTOR than the black & white take of most of the Star Wars films.

I had hoped this was the path Disney was going down with the sequel trilogy (Luke's line "Its time for the Jedi to end") but nope, it appears that they're just rehashing the same old Star Wars stories we already got in the other trilogies.

I got the vibe from the trailers that heavy 'borrowing' from KOTOR 2 was on the cards, sadly they backed down from Luke going full on war on god like Kreia and just made him grumpy uncle Jedi

Ugh, Kreia was basically just a mouthpiece to someone who didn't like the star wars universe, which was the main issue for me with that game seeing as she was primarily the source of everything in that game.

Also given that her idea was to kill the force (that we know of, given she's a compulsive liar), which would've ended up killing all things.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I too prefer the more nuanced take on the Force of KOTOR than the black & white take of most of the Star Wars films.

I had hoped this was the path Disney was going down with the sequel trilogy (Luke's line "Its time for the Jedi to end") but nope, it appears that they're just rehashing the same old Star Wars stories we already got in the other trilogies.

I got the vibe from the trailers that heavy 'borrowing' from KOTOR 2 was on the cards, sadly they backed down from Luke going full on war on god like Kreia and just made him grumpy uncle Jedi

Ugh, Kreia was basically just a mouthpiece to someone who didn't like the star wars universe, which was the main issue for me with that game seeing as she was primarily the source of everything in that game.

Also given that her idea was to kill the force (that we know of, given she's a compulsive liar), which would've ended up killing all things.

No it wouldn't. KOTOR 2 itself established that one can live without a connection to the Force, the Exile (PC) subconsciously cut herself off from it.

The Yuuzhan Vong race (EU) also demonstrated that its possible for life to develop and survive without the Force.

No it wouldn't. KOTOR 2 itself established that one can live without a connection to the Force, the Exile (PC) subconsciously cut herself off from it.

If you didn't realize it fully it can sound like they are literally living without the force but they are not. To put it bluntly, they are akin to a wound in the force, a black hole almost that draws upon the force within others. Dark side feeds upon it like a parasite while a light side does it akin to a symbiosis but make no mistake they still require it. They are essentially Darth Nihlus but not as powerful as the gaping hole he is but a dark sided PC could essentially become them.. But they still need the force at heart, and Kreia herself mentions that Darth Nihlus would've starved eventually.

So without the force in other individuals to feed upon they would have died just as many others would.

The Yuuzhan Vong race (EU) also demonstrated that its possible for life to develop and survive without the Force.

Yes, and most people tend to very much dislike the Yuuzhan Vong because of.. well a lot of problems that faction has presented both storywise and characterwise, a few cheered when the EU dropped and they went with it. Though it is an example nonetheless.

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of "Snoke isn't really dead" theories flying around the net. Anyone here think this may have legs?

As much as SW fans decry Abrams for "rehashing" old material in TFA, I think a segment of them just can't wrap their head around the idea that the "Emperor" figure is dead already in this trilogy.

Snoke will stay dead because having him live would undermine Ren's development in this movie. And let's be honest...both Snoke and the Emperor in the OT were *terrible* villains. We knew nothing about them or their motivations, only that they were cackling old Force wizards.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't mean to belittle the super fans' interest and importance.

That said, cinema (especially blockbusters) is a mass media industry. If "super fans" constitute 10% of the potential audience, it may not be enough to justify X cinemas screening the film for Y weeks, and so on.

Action figure sales can't make up for that.

Again, it received an 'A' Cinemascore, which is more reliable than anything else out there for tracking audience reactions of people who have actually seen the film. So general audiences seem to like the film just fine.

There is no good outcome if you focus on trying to please superfans.

Gorgon, didn't Rogue One please both casuals and superfans? Isn't the entire MCU built on the idea of pleasing both by having continuity and fun? It's definitely possible. It just takes work, and that's hard apparently.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Gorgon, didn't Rogue One please both casuals and superfans? Isn't the entire MCU built on the idea of pleasing both by having continuity and fun? It's definitely possible. It just takes work, and that's hard apparently.

I don't think we're talking about the same things. Are you claiming that TLJ wasn't fun, and was out of continuity with the previous trilogies?

There's also quite a bit of difference in baggage between a lineup of B- and C-list superhero characters never seen on film before, and the legacies of franchises like SW and ST. There were no Iron Man, Thor or Captain America movie superfans before the current Marvel Studios films.

 gorgon wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of "Snoke isn't really dead" theories flying around the net. Anyone here think this may have legs?

As much as SW fans decry Abrams for "rehashing" old material in TFA, I think a segment of them just can't wrap their head around the idea that the "Emperor" figure is dead already in this trilogy.

Snoke will stay dead because having him live would undermine Ren's development in this movie. And let's be honest...both Snoke and the Emperor in the OT were *terrible* villains. We knew nothing about them or their motivations, only that they were cackling old Force wizards.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't mean to belittle the super fans' interest and importance.

That said, cinema (especially blockbusters) is a mass media industry. If "super fans" constitute 10% of the potential audience, it may not be enough to justify X cinemas screening the film for Y weeks, and so on.

Action figure sales can't make up for that.

Again, it received an 'A' Cinemascore, which is more reliable than anything else out there for tracking audience reactions of people who have actually seen the film. So general audiences seem to like the film just fine.

There is no good outcome if you focus on trying to please superfans.

Cinema score is utterly laughable as a source, they poll people on opening night, that's it, no reviews or anything, just a poll, I trust reading through actual viewer reviews, it's easy to distinguish nerd rage and an actual issue that people have, can't do that with cinema score.

 gorgon wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Gorgon, didn't Rogue One please both casuals and superfans? Isn't the entire MCU built on the idea of pleasing both by having continuity and fun? It's definitely possible. It just takes work, and that's hard apparently.

I don't think we're talking about the same things. Are you claiming that TLJ wasn't fun, and was out of continuity with the previous trilogies?

There's also quite a bit of difference in baggage between a lineup of B- and C-list superhero characters never seen on film before, and the legacies of franchises like SW and ST. There were no Iron Man, Thor or Captain America movie superfans before the current Marvel Studios films.

I am saying that it was fun, and also out of continuity. Because it was fun, it appealed to the mainstream and many of the fans who follow the series for certain aspects of it. For many other fans, the setting is important. In film analysis, there is an unspoken "shut up nerd" attitude towards people who would point out continuity issues based on the setting rather than the characters, but considering how many technical-minded books are sold for each movie the wrongfun crowd is quite large.

If you only want to talk long term series, TNG managed the trick. Doctor Who, too, although continuity issues are a feature for that series.

There's a pretty consistent refrain, among those who conclude that they enjoyed the film, of enumerating a list of points they found poor or at least distractingly irritating. So I think "enjoyed" is a pretty low threshold. Moreover, the other pattern these folks evince is arguing something like, "well it doesn't have to be good anyway because it's Star Wars," which ignores that Star Wars can be (or at least had been, long ago) quite a bit better than good. I'm also not convinced that it's the "superfans" who don't like TLJ. I'd say "superfans" are the people who faithfully pay their way to Celebration to cheer for Kathleen Kennedy. They seem to really like whatever they are given. So dismissing criticism of TLJ as "you can't please superfans" amounts to just that - a dismissal. I'd guess the real distinction here is between those who expect more from movies generally, not only SW movies, than a disposable experience, and those with more, uh, generous attitudes toward cinema. For the latter, complaining anout TLJ seems to strike them like complaining that a Big Mac is not filet mignon.

I see a higher amount of people who didn't like it trying to put words in others mouths who did enjoy it to try to justify the fact that they just didn't like it.

Sometimes you don't like a movie and others do. Just accept that others enjoyed the movie and go about criticising the film, not te people who enjoyed it.

Welcome to the thread, Loki. In this thread, you can find a lot of my criticism about the film itself. But as you might notice, conversation has turned once again to dismissing criticism of the film to criticism of the people criticizing it. My post is in response to that. Moreover, a quick glance at the last few pages - much less the conversation as a whole - provides examples of exactly what I'm talking about.

 gorgon wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Rey literally has to bring balance to the force by neither choosing the light nor dark side, but by using both in harmony.

Things do seem headed this way.

And although I'm sure we'll hear calls of 'ruined childhoods' from certain fans, I think it makes sense. The Jedi and Sith always seemed to be at the extreme, cartoonish ends of the light/dark spectrum. In the real world, it's possible to have emotion and passion alongside selflessness and a level of control. Seems like that should also have been possible a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

Well that does fit.

Theres the whole kylo going about the and of sith, the end of Jedi. Somthing new. The end of thr old empire and rebels. Thr end of thr past which has caused so many wars and deaths.

Theres been no grey figures who master both sides of thr force. Windu might have been closest I know of given he used a semi sith combat style, without falling to dark side.

Maybe foreshadowing Rey and starting a new Jedi who balence both the light and thr dark side more than there previous ancestors.

 gorgon wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Gorgon, didn't Rogue One please both casuals and superfans? Isn't the entire MCU built on the idea of pleasing both by having continuity and fun? It's definitely possible. It just takes work, and that's hard apparently.

I don't think we're talking about the same things. Are you claiming that TLJ wasn't fun, and was out of continuity with the previous trilogies?

Yep - its was overlong, often tedious and badly written, fun it was not.

It drew vaguely on some of the older films but was its own thing - if they had actually had a new story to tell, chose to focuss on characters perhaps or even a decent direrctor or screenwritter this could have been a good thing - instead we had long, boring and badly written.

I actually thought, for the amount of content it covered, that there were several points in the film that could do with more content being added. I did get to worry come around the 3/4 in that "hey is this going to suddenly end feeling really rushed?"

Wasn't Luke on the planet of the Original Jedi Temple? (Not to be confused with Orginal Rey's.). Do they not have any history books or files from the 25,000 years of republic before the Empire? Or did Luke somehow delete the knowledge of one of the galaxy's most important historic sites?

If Luke didn't the Empire most certainly did remember.

One supposes that it's no more realistic than, say, Han Solo not believing in the force despite, you know, 25,000 years or so of there being quite a lot of evidence for it existing.

One might even think that Chewbacca might maybe have mentioned that it is indeed true and that he met/knew quite a few jedi and so forth.

I'm still somewhat dubious that Leia and Han would'be named their first born/only ..( right ? Guess there still could be an unknown twin somewhere or whathaveyou...) after Ben Kenobi given that they didn't really know him at all...

.. don't think Leia even met him -- birth aside perhaps -- and it never struck me that Han seemed terribly fond of him, didn;t seemed phased by his death at all for example.

I guess he was instrumental in bringing them together and it would be awkward to name your child Death Star or Detention Level Trash Compactor.


I was a bit confused about the master code breaker....

after the person was identified --- guy with the jewelery bit on -- it looked to me as if he was oblivious but his companion/lady with him seemed to do a " double take"/similar .... and then they're never mentioned again ?

I was thinking they'he/she would turn up later -- perhaps even to break Finn & Rose out of jail -- or something but it all just seemed to fizzle out.

The sidequest was indeed the weakest part of the film but it was really odd how it all just fizzled out as it did...

... just happens to be an equally as good ..? ... criminal locked in the same cell as them ..?

I know there's always been a degree of luck/force destiny -- robots exploding at the right time -- RIP Skippy http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Skippy_the_Jedi_Droid -- but that seemed a bit too convenient.

So much so one wonders if there was an aborted other plotline somewhere here -- I've seen some talk about whether del Toro really was the master code guy after all and similar.

 Overread wrote:
I actually thought, for the amount of content it covered, that there were several points in the film that could do with more content being added. I did get to worry come around the 3/4 in that "hey is this going to suddenly end feeling really rushed?"

Oh yes there were interesting plot elelments that could have been actually expanded upon rather than say:

A waste of time trip to Casino World (coming to a Disney attraaction near you) .
or so many repeated long shots of the FO warships bumbling along doing nothing whilst their flagship fires occassionally and presumably their hundreds of fighter pilots drink and play cards.

 reds8n wrote:


The sidequest was indeed the weakest part of the film but it was really odd how it all just fizzled out as it did...

... just happens to be an equally as good ..? ... criminal locked in the same cell as them ..?

I know there's always been a degree of luck/force destiny -- robots exploding at the right time -- RIP Skippy http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Skippy_the_Jedi_Droid -- but that seemed a bit too convenient.

So much so one wonders if there was an aborted other plotline somewhere here -- I've seen some talk about whether del Toro really was the master code guy after all and similar.

I have to say that, the intro "he's hazing you" bit and the end of the Casino section were the weakest of the writing. The Casino especially feels like they cut something major from it and it was harkening back to the super convenient aspects from the first of this new Trilogy (seriously the previous film was full of so many convenient things it hurt).
I'd really like to see the Casino section expanded - I think its purpose was to try and show part of the universe outside of the cruiser and battleship race and the Jedi birthworld - ergo two places that are very niche and isolated. The Casino serves its purpose of showing us how things are for a segment of the current population and in that light it really helps give an idea of why some, not all, of those allies wouldn't respond to the Rebel call to aid.

Essentially sending the message that the war was over, people didn't want to go to war again and, life under/with the First Order really isn't that bad for those in power (unless you're poor slaves). I think that message and a few other aspects could have come across stronger.

Honestly this is one film that could easily have been split into two halves with the amount of content they were trying to fit into it; in fact it would have been stronger to be two films and allow them to go into each segment in more detail to flesh them out. Flesh out the Casino; flesh out why everyone on the cruiser didn't just leap into ships and disperse everywhere (spy?); flesh out the growing divide between upper and lower ranks in the rebellion; flesh out a bit more of Rey's training etc... Although granted that cruiser could only run for so long, but the reorganising and defence of the planet could have been stretched out (the Last Order fleet blockading and then waiting for a few ships with ground forces to come; trying to reorganise itself after having taken huge damage etc...)


I do wonder if we'll see a directors cut of this film - I'd welcome some extra bits.

When the "roadtrip" bit first came up I was hoping/expecting some Ocean's 11 type scheming to have to happen --

you know the sort of thing, codebreaker guy will help you but first you must help him steal the priceless MacGuffin Rose Diamond or whatever.

Wackiness and antics ensue, characters learn about each/ a plot point or moral that will occur later in a handy manner, then race back to the fleet.

I'd also have had the fleet stuff be more dramatic -- more like that BSG episode where the cylons attack every 33 minutes or whathaveyou.


The whole casino bit went a bit like an RPG adventure except the PCs have played/rolled really badly and the GM kindly helps them get back on track.

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Rey literally has to bring balance to the force by neither choosing the light nor dark side, but by using both in harmony.

Things do seem headed this way.

And although I'm sure we'll hear calls of 'ruined childhoods' from certain fans, I think it makes sense. The Jedi and Sith always seemed to be at the extreme, cartoonish ends of the light/dark spectrum. In the real world, it's possible to have emotion and passion alongside selflessness and a level of control. Seems like that should also have been possible a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

Well that does fit.

Theres the whole kylo going about the and of sith, the end of Jedi. Somthing new. The end of thr old empire and rebels. Thr end of thr past which has caused so many wars and deaths.

Theres been no grey figures who master both sides of thr force. Windu might have been closest I know of given he used a semi sith combat style, without falling to dark side.

Maybe foreshadowing Rey and starting a new Jedi who balence both the light and thr dark side more than there previous ancestors.

I don't agree at all. The film explicitly sets up more Empire vs. Rebels, Light vs Dark and nothing else. It isn't an end of anything, just a continuation of everything that's already happened.

In fact, if 9 doesn't take an opportunity for a time skip (the way esb and rotj did), it will have to start in the same circumstance as this one, and rehash the whole thing. Despite having a half dozen B plots and nothing else, it is too compact for a larger universe. Given that, 9 is going to labor really heavily just to wrap up this trilogy in a satisfying fashion (something I'm not convinced it can do at all, given the absolute lack of plot hooks), let alone spend a lot of time setting up anything, let alone explaining the concept of 'grey Jedi' to the audience, then trying to convince them that Redemption Heroine is suddenly all about that. Might have been somewhat possible for the Rey in the first film, but she definitely donned the Anointed Hero mantle at the end of this one.

Did people actually watch the movie?

Rey's power is explained, quite clearly, by Snoke. He says (not verbatim) that he knew a light side power would emerge to match Kylo Ren's darkness and that he assumed it would be Luke, but it turned out to be Rey. Sure, you can choose to dislike that explanation, but saying that it wasn't explained makes you look extremely foolish when it is spelled out so freaking clearly.