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tneva82 wrote:

Dynas wrote:
The Hive Tyrant Adaptive Biology seems really good. With the increase toughness and invul save, stacked with that, you can never take more than 1 damage per attack. No more lascannons dropping multi wounds. You now will have to actually wound 12 separate times.

Not that good. It's after END of first phase. So alpha striking tyranids becomes more important than ever(sigh). First shooting phase it's T7 4++ W12. If you can get those 12 wounds on first shooting phase neither of bonuses matter.

To be fair, the 4++ is going to make it pretty rough. You will need a LOT of shots dedicated to shooting it down to accomplish that.

tneva82 wrote:

Dynas wrote:
The Hive Tyrant Adaptive Biology seems really good. With the increase toughness and invul save, stacked with that, you can never take more than 1 damage per attack. No more lascannons dropping multi wounds. You now will have to actually wound 12 separate times.

Not that good. It's after END of first phase. So alpha striking tyranids becomes more important than ever(sigh). First shooting phase it's T7 4++ W12. If you can get those 12 wounds on first shooting phase neither of bonuses matter.

I do belive tyrant guards can help with this. If you take a little damage, tank it on the tyrant. Any adition damage can go on the guards. Works even better as Leaviathan 6+++. Or with gorgon relic.

'Gorgon relic: after being wounded the first time gain 1T for the rest of the game'

T8 tyrant who takes 1 less wound. Oh my.

 Lance845 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I still think the name "Bio-artefacts" sounds stupid. They really should name it "Specialist Mutations or something"

Agreed

NinthMusketeer wrote:It's for rule consistency. Not only does it identify that they work the same way as other artifacts but if they need to FAQ/eratta all artifacts they don't have to deal with 'well they are called mutations not artifacts so they are different'.

Tau are signature systems. There is no reason "relic" or "artifact" needs to be in the name of something that literally gets dissolved into a gruel and rebirthed over and over again.

Remember last edition after the faq hit saying "only 1 relic/artifact per character", and for months people debated if Tau signature systems counted as artifacts or not? That right there is a good enough reason for standardizing names, even if they do end up sounding a bit stupid - it clears ambiguity.

Resipsa131 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Dynas wrote:
Not sure how I feel about them limiting the new guns to specific hive fleets. Seems like they are trying to shoe horn play styles to specific fleets, which i guess is fine form a game perspective. BUt from a fluff perspective and evolution standpoint if a certain big gun is available or needed, why wouldn't any hive fleet be able to evolve or biomorph that.

The Hive Tyrant Adaptive Biology seems really good. With the increase toughness and invul save, stacked with that, you can never take more than 1 damage per attack. No more lascannons dropping multi wounds. You now will have to actually wound 12 separate times.

Is dakka Flyrant still going to be a thing or are people going to be running them with the melee loadout still?

It is "Reduce the damage of the attack by 1, to a minimun of 1". A Lasscanon shoot doing 6 of damage will do the Tyrant 5 damage, not 1.

correect its the same ability Abberants have in mountain of muscle

Kraken clearly stole Serpent Shields from Iyanden.

 Galas wrote:

Dynas wrote:
Not sure how I feel about them limiting the new guns to specific hive fleets. Seems like they are trying to shoe horn play styles to specific fleets, which i guess is fine form a game perspective. BUt from a fluff perspective and evolution standpoint if a certain big gun is available or needed, why wouldn't any hive fleet be able to evolve or biomorph that.

The Hive Tyrant Adaptive Biology seems really good. With the increase toughness and invul save, stacked with that, you can never take more than 1 damage per attack. No more lascannons dropping multi wounds. You now will have to actually wound 12 separate times.

Is dakka Flyrant still going to be a thing or are people going to be running them with the melee loadout still?

It is "Reduce the damage of the attack by 1, to a minimun of 1". A Lasscanon shoot doing 6 of damage will do the Tyrant 5 damage, not 1.

Doh, Misread. I stand corrected. Not nearly as good now.

Walking hive Tyrants a thing now, or is Swarmy still better? Flyrants only?

Does this mean that all of the special characters (Red Terror, Old One Eye etc) mentioned, are now HQ choices? That would be really nice!

Maybe I'm just wishfully interpreting the implication in the article...

 Strangelooper wrote:
Does this mean that all of the special characters (Red Terror, Old One Eye etc) mentioned, are now HQ choices? That would be really nice!

Maybe I'm just wishfully interpreting the implication in the article...

Rumours, like leaks, has it that they have not changed position from where they where in the index.

I still don't see what was so bad about walking tyrants & tyrant guard in the index. Or is this discussion referring to tournament-level play?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still don't see what was so bad about walking tyrants & tyrant guard in the index. Or is this discussion referring to tournament-level play?

From what has come out it seems very good. A lot of bad things got better, some common tyranid problebs (synapse) seems to be fixed. The different hive fleets look awsome. If people are complaining, it is because they compare it to competetive lists like Gylliman + 6 assault cannon razor backs + 6 lascannon marines. Can the codex beat that? We will have to wait and see. Does that afect 95% of the people playing tyranids? No. The codex so far seems great.

 Niiai wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still don't see what was so bad about walking tyrants & tyrant guard in the index. Or is this discussion referring to tournament-level play?

From what has come out it seems very good. A lot of bad things got better, some common tyranid problebs (synapse) seems to be fixed. The different hive fleets look awsome. If people are complaining, it is because they compare it to competetive lists like Gylliman + 6 assault cannon razor backs + 6 lascannon marines. Can the codex beat that? We will have to wait and see. Does that afect 95% of the people playing tyranids? No. The codex so far seems great.

I'm saying tyrants & tguard worked perfectly well for me already, without the upcoming improvements.

I’m mostly intrigued to see the full suite of psychic powers available.

 Lance845 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Dynas wrote:
The Hive Tyrant Adaptive Biology seems really good. With the increase toughness and invul save, stacked with that, you can never take more than 1 damage per attack. No more lascannons dropping multi wounds. You now will have to actually wound 12 separate times.

Not that good. It's after END of first phase. So alpha striking tyranids becomes more important than ever(sigh). First shooting phase it's T7 4++ W12. If you can get those 12 wounds on first shooting phase neither of bonuses matter.

To be fair, the 4++ is going to make it pretty rough. You will need a LOT of shots dedicated to shooting it down to accomplish that.

^This
Also if the tyrant has tyrant guard with it it'll be even harder.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still don't see what was so bad about walking tyrants & tyrant guard in the index. Or is this discussion referring to tournament-level play?

Not much, though enough high strength, multi damage weapons and you can drop them fairly quickly. I just don't think many people had them after the last 3 1/2 years of Flyrant spam. I think the real problem was that on paper the Swarmlord was the better choice.

 Imateria wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still don't see what was so bad about walking tyrants & tyrant guard in the index. Or is this discussion referring to tournament-level play?

Not much, though enough high strength, multi damage weapons and you can drop them fairly quickly. I just don't think many people had them after the last 3 1/2 years of Flyrant spam. I think the real problem was that on paper the Swarmlord was the better choice.

This. If you want a Walkrant you might as well take the Swarmlord. Though some of those new relic guns has me considering a dakka tyrant. I generally always felt dakka MCs with heavy weapons were a waste since they generally preformed better in CC but a heavy weapon that ignores imvuln saves along with the Smite spam we can bring seems.prettt nice.

Something that immediately jumped out at me is Kraken flyrant with the miasma cannon. Having freedom to fall back, shoot the autohit s9 ap-2 d3 gun at a troublesome vehicle then charge to finish it off instead of just sitting there like a dummy is fantastic. Wondering if there will be a semblance of balance between tyrant melee choices now.

It might change with a points reduction but right now its hard to see how foot Tyrants are cost efficient (and fly Tyrants are not great either).

They can do a bit of everything. They have good psychic, okay melee (but not so great versus hordes or vehicles - which I think is the meta) and pretty weak shooting. So you really need to be getting your moneys worth by killing things in every phase. Which is possible - although Wings help getting into assault.

The real issue is that its in a package that is currently highly efficient to shoot with heavy weapons. And okay you can have Tyrant Guard eat the wounds - but they are pretty efficient to shoot with a range of weapons too.

A points reduction, 2 extra wounds and 4++ may go someway to changing that, as it means it will take around 50% more lascannon hits to bring him down (before you start looking at any of the new abilities in the codex).

Still not sure he really brings enough offensively but we shall have to see.

I usually ran a melee footrant (swarmlord or a generic for low point games) that had bare bones tguard following him around, with a shooting tyrant that hung around in the back to bubble out synapse. The one in the back threw physic buffs onto the units in front while the tyrant in front usually did an offensive power & smite every round. Front tyrant ended up dead by the end of almost every game but did enough damage/ate enough shooting for him to be worth it.

So obviously I'm pretty happy with the tyrant changes!

I guess it depends on what sort of lists you regularly face.

I wouldn't ever make a tyrant my warlord, even a codex tyrant. Just because why would I take a warlord which can be shot at, even if it's really tough, if I could instead take one that's nearly immune to being touched at all until most of my army is dead?

The codex tyrant certainly sounds mean enough to make a good secondary HQ though.

Back tyrant was the warlord with the 6+ fnp trait and a malanthrope camped next to him.

jimmyjames2112 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I played those same editions and bolters were a big reason as to why genestealers weren't fielded after 4th and even then you didn't take them without extended carapace.

That's true. I was very sad when Stealers not only lost grenades, but they also gave tac marines Overwatch. Having a stealer rapid fired up as it popped from outflank, then, again as it charged, to only go last caused my 20 box to sit in my basement for the last 8 years.

As a marine player tho, its annoying that the most expensive MEQ troop, has the worst gun. Why not have something like, 3 shots in Rapid Fire range. or, exploding 6s to wound.

Yep I've been saying that for years, every army get a bonus to its basic weapon in some way, bar marines, a 6 to wound should be damage 2 or ap-1 at least

 Formosa wrote:
Yep I've been saying that for years, every army get a bonus to its basic weapon in some way, bar marines, a 6 to wound should be damage 2 or ap-1 at least

What bonus lasgun, slugga and shoota are getting?

Lasgun has first rank second rank for extra shots, sluga isn't orks basic weapon, tis a pistol and shoota had assault 2 on a mega cheap ork that was still good at combat, now? Not sure haven't read the index on them.

Eldar have blade storm
Necrons had gauss
Tau have range, strength and the fireblade, ethereal etc.
Nids have very cheap spamable firepower, lots of options for different weapons.

It kinda leaves the humble Bolter a bit lack lister as it's neither cheap enough to spam (orks, nids, guard), nor powerful enough to want to take in numbers (necrons, eldar), note this is not a complaint however, just an observation, I would like to see all bolt weapons get a slight buff in some manner, my ideal Bolter would be (I know most won't agree lol)
Str4 ap- range rapid fire 3 damage 1 18" special rules: "mass reactive" any to wound roll of a 6 or higher causes 2 wounds instead of 1.
I know it's probably not amazing but I see the Bolter as a short range assault weapon with overwhelming firepower.

If you start counting imperial guard orders as boost for weapons then you should count chapter tactic boosts as well. And assault 2 is stat of a weapon. Like STR4 in bolter. So there. Bolter speciality is rapid fire and S4.

tneva82 wrote:
If you start counting imperial guard orders as boost for weapons then you should count chapter tactic boosts as well. And assault 2 is stat of a weapon. Like STR4 in bolter. So there. Bolter speciality is rapid fire and S4.

I don't count the chapter tactics as only some get the bonus, where as all guard (for example) get access to there specific bonus/use.

We all know that the Bolter has been a bit lackluster for nearly every edition so far, through a combination of expensive (relatively) platform and fairly meh stats, but mostly for me, it just doesn't "feel" right and never has done, str4 ap5 (-) rapid fire (2) 24" and that's it, that doesn't look or feel like a mass reactive rapid fire grenade launcher, I just think it needs a slight buff/shuffle to get the feel right, same with all bolt weapons.

tneva82 wrote:
If you start counting imperial guard orders as boost for weapons then you should count chapter tactic boosts as well. And assault 2 is stat of a weapon. Like STR4 in bolter. So there. Bolter speciality is rapid fire and S4.

How are chapter tactics equivalent to guard orders? Chapter tactics are the same thing as regimental doctrines. Guard orders are most equivalent to the reroll 1's that captains get, which is not a very favorable comparison for the space marines.

How is orders part of weapon stats? Last time I checked orders are not listed in lasgun stats.

You want to see what speciality lasgun has, look at the lasgun rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Codex Tyranid Preview: Commanding your Swarm

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/01/codex-tyranids-preview-day-3-commanding-your-swarm-nov-1gw-homepage-post-2/

I think this is the first time I ever complain on GW pricing on a forum.
Generally, my time is more worth than the price of the plastic/metall/resin, but:
$81 for the Red Terror

I know it's resin, but still. I think the old metal Red Terror (who is still languishing in my tyranid cabinet) was $16 or maybe $18...

/ Best regards, Fredrik

tneva82 wrote:
How is orders part of weapon stats? Last time I checked orders are not listed in lasgun stats.

You want to see what speciality lasgun has, look at the lasgun rules.

I didn't specify weapon stats? I said that every army has a way to boost the basic weapon, guard orders was just an example of that, an ability army wide that can make the basic weapon perform better, this either doesn't exist for marines, or is specific to certain chapter tactics.

 Formosa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How is orders part of weapon stats? Last time I checked orders are not listed in lasgun stats.

You want to see what speciality lasgun has, look at the lasgun rules.

I didn't specify weapon stats? I said that every army has a way to boost the basic weapon, guard orders was just an example of that, an ability army wide that can make the basic weapon perform better, this either doesn't exist for marines, or is specific to certain chapter tactics.

Except the way to boost "the basic weapon" for Imperial Fists also boosts the specialized versions.

Bolter Drill(which is a Stratagem and stacks with the rerolls to Hit and Wound auras that Lieutenants, Chapter Masters, and Captains bring to the field) specifies that it also applies to Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, etc.

FRFSRF is of a diminished capacity outside of Conscript Squads, thanks to the mandatory Pistol that Guard Sergeants are required to have. It's, in my opinion, a bit of a false equivalency to bring it up without noting that the unit which benefits the most from that specific Order is the most troublesome unit in the book to balance it seems.

I'm confused by the previous pages.
Why are people complaining about how 'bad' Guard lasguns are, or that Bolters need to be better at killing 2+ models per shot at all ranges?