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 Amishprn86 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I just wanted to wording on the stratagem...........

Forward Operatives
Use this Stratagem when you can set up an ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

It says "before the 1st battle round" so this clearly is within the rules to use it as many times as you want, due to rule for match play on pg 215.

This is why i wanted the wording, this is 100% clear and legal.

SWEET! b.c i have a large Khorne army XD aka lots of Zerkers, now i need to buy the codex i guess lol

Correction, it says "At the beginning..." not "Before..."

*edit*
Although from what was quoted above about what GW said, it does imply that the meant for it to work as was played. It's odd that they didn't word it like that on the Stratagem.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?

There is a seperate rule in the book that says that any dice can only be re-rolled once. So that would seem to trump the repeated use of stratagems. The Infiltration stratagem can indeed be used multiple times, and only costs 1CP each. If you get first turn, it's a real winner (as the OP has seen).

He did use a very competitive list, against Eldar who are among the weakest of armies right now. There wasn't really much OP could do about it.

how does this make the game better than 7th? they just traded off shenanigans.

I guess the solution is that everyone needs conscripts.

Both this one and the ravenguard one should be changed like scouts were, to be 9" away from the enemy deployment zone rather than enemy models. In my opinion, you should never be able to start in someone else's deployment zone, before the first turn. Not that it would really do anything about this shenanigan I guess. Maybe these should both be changed to just deepstrikeing?

 Purifier wrote:
Is the stratagem allowed to be used 3 times just because it's outside of normal "phases?"

I would have assumed that the intent would be for it to be only used once.

Have you read the rulebook? The exact same rule that limits stratagems to once per phase has an exception in the rule for stratagems used outside of normal phases. Like there is literally an entire extra sentence specifically contradicting the intent to only be used once.

fe40k wrote:

Second, infiltration deployments must be placed on the board before determining who goes first or second - this means that you can deploy 9" away and hope to get the first turn, allowing you to move and make an almost guaranteed charge; but it comes with a risk - if your opponent gets the first turn, they're going to gun down/charge your infiltrating units.

Can someone double check that, because AFAIK the berserkers are placed before the firs turn but after finding out who is going first.
That is a big deal because when we chatted after the game my opponent (Jason) said he was relaxed about the risk of going 2 because he would just put them somewhere safer. We use lots of terrain so it wouldn't have been too far back anyway.

Here is the text

FORWARD OPERATIVES
Alpha Legion Stratagem
Use this Stratagem when you can set up an ALPHA
LEGION INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can
set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the
battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but
before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding
place – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more
than 9" away from any enemy models.

fe40k wrote:
I haven't faced CSM doing this yet, and it does sound super brutal - but it has counters, such as seizing the first turn, or simply bubblewrapping your units with disposable ones (which you should be doing REGARDLESS, as Deep Striking and one-rounding squads is a fact of life this edition).

in case you don't know, the berserkers have a rule so they 'attack again' after fighting. "Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."
This means they can kill the Bubblewrap with a big pile of dice -- and then they consolidate 3" and then they pile in 3" and try kill whatever was 'protected' by the bubble wrap.

Combo that with starting so close and you can see the problem doesn't seem to have the usual solutions.

NickMcMahon wrote:

fe40k wrote:
I haven't faced CSM doing this yet, and it does sound super brutal - but it has counters, such as seizing the first turn, or simply bubblewrapping your units with disposable ones (which you should be doing REGARDLESS, as Deep Striking and one-rounding squads is a fact of life this edition).

in case you don't know, the berserkers have a rule so they 'attack again' after fighting. "Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."
This means they can kill the Bubblewrap with a big pile of dice -- and then they consolidate 3" and then they pile in 3" and try kill whatever was 'protected' by the bubble wrap.

Combo that with starting so close and you can see the problem doesn't seem to have the usual solutions.

Even with their second (potentially 3rd by stratagem) attack phase, they can't fight anything they didn't charge. And they can only charge things within 12". There is something of a limitation there, although it rarely feels like one.

edit: wrote 9 instead of 12 for some reason.

NickMcMahon wrote:

fe40k wrote:

Second, infiltration deployments must be placed on the board before determining who goes first or second - this means that you can deploy 9" away and hope to get the first turn, allowing you to move and make an almost guaranteed charge; but it comes with a risk - if your opponent gets the first turn, they're going to gun down/charge your infiltrating units.

Can someone double check that, because AFAIK the berserkers are placed before the firs turn but after finding out who is going first.
That is a big deal because when we chatted after the game my opponent (Jason) said he was relaxed about the risk of going 2 because he would just put them somewhere safer. We use lots of terrain so it wouldn't have been too far back anyway.

Here is the text

FORWARD OPERATIVES
Alpha Legion Stratagem
Use this Stratagem when you can set up an ALPHA
LEGION INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can
set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the
battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but
before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding
place – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more
than 9" away from any enemy models.

Oh, I had always read the rule as meaning they were placed before it was decided who goes first... but I don't know why I thought that, I'm sure it was just the general opinion that was given on the chaos forums/tactica. Don't know if it was due to some sort of faw or something. Reading that, it does say beginning of first battle round, which would be after you roll for first turn.

True but he just declared the charge on everything including the back guys, and sucked up a bit of extra overwatch. Small price to pay.
Deployment was 'Front line assault' so there's not much space. Dawn of War would be even worse.

I Guess I could drop all large bases like vehicles and just put 1 line of guys on my front, and everyone else at the back of the board touching my edge but that sounds like nerfing the army vs all other opponents in the mad hope of not dying until the Chaos player's second turn

I predict this will be something that'll be fixed in a Chapter Approved.

But yeah, make sure your friend doesn't play that list against you if he wants to keep playing friendly games. That crap should be reserved for tournaments where it belongs. I understand if he wanted to test it, but he should have explained what he was planning to do from the getgo. That would have changed your deployment strategy significantly and might have saved you from a complete tabling... at least you would have gotten some shots back and would have been tabled turn 2 instead

 argonak wrote:
Even with their second (potentially 3rd by stratagem) attack phase, they can't fight anything they didn't charge. And they can only charge things within 12". There is something of a limitation there, although it rarely feels like one.

edit: wrote 9 instead of 12 for some reason.

When they're 3" from the nearest enemy that 12" range includes everyone that they can consolidate into.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also the Fliers are literally the best Anti-charge turn 1 against "Non-Fly" units as they must stay away from the flyer and can not charge it.

Thanks, that's a interesting tip I hadn't thought of before - will have to break out the Nightwings and give it some thought.

Rangers could also be a potential counter to this strategy, it would be back and forth, but they could push the berzerkers out even further if they deploy first.

Something with its own infiltrate or scout move might also be a good counter if it can hit the table first, since that will force them to drop further away. Or deploy along the short edges so you can have a 24" deployment zone.

If you're deploying along the long edges (the most common deployment) your deployment zone is only 12" deep, so if they're dropping 3" away you've only got a 3" "safe zone" in the back, and that isn't much unless you do something to push their drop further out.

OP should have just gone and bought some ice cream.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Is the stratagem allowed to be used 3 times just because it's outside of normal "phases?"

I would have assumed that the intent would be for it to be only used once.

Have you read the rulebook? The exact same rule that limits stratagems to once per phase has an exception in the rule for stratagems used outside of normal phases. Like there is literally an entire extra sentence specifically contradicting the intent to only be used once.

Why are you being so stupidly confrontational?

 Huron black heart wrote:
When playing a game it should be fun for both sides, at least that's how I see it.

As a potential new player looking in...this is the stuff that kinda concerns me about the game. I play wargames for fun and at this point it's not likely I'd ever do tournaments or at least nothing beyond something that's being put on by the local shop. So as a casual player I'm ok with losing as long as I'm having a good time. Of course I want to win too but not at the expense of creating stupid lists that aren't fun to play with the only goal being overpowered and taking advantage of rules just to beat my opponent. But being tabled round one or even round two would not be fun IMO. I don't like the idea that the game is so unbalanced that something like that is even possible outside a match between a really good player and a really bad player. As a new player...I expect to get ripped apart on the table. But that should be due to my ability as a player...not because my opponents army is just insanely powerful and unstoppable. All I know is if someone pulled something like that on me...I probably just wouldn't ever play them again. Unless I knew ahead of time and agreed to the list...pulling a stunt like that just shows the other players character or lack there of and not something I would want to be part of.

*** I didn't read past page one when I posted this...perhaps things are better clarified in later posts making what happened not such a dick move. But again...from what I've read...it just seems gakky to bring a top tier tournament list to a casual game unless both parties agree. ***

What am I missing here? Doesn't the Chaos player's strategy rely heavily on an alpha strike? And an alpha strike that depends on T4, 3+ models that are relatively easy to kill, meaning it's an all or nothing gambit?

Take some Rangers. Put them out in front of your army to force the Berskers to deploy far away.

Take Dark Reapers, or almost any unit with guns, and blast the Berserkers off the table on turn 1.

Take Howling Banshees, who always strike first and are ideal for mopping up Berserker units that have been thinned out by your fire.

I fail to see how the the Chaos player's strategy is anything more than a 'gotcha!' that will work once against a given opponent and then never again. It's still a decent battle plan since it places 40 Berserkers in the enemy's face, but you should only ever suffer one first turn loss.

Nubster wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:
When playing a game it should be fun for both sides, at least that's how I see it.

As a potential new player looking in...this is the stuff that kinda concerns me about the game. I play wargames for fun and at this point it's not likely I'd ever do tournaments or at least nothing beyond something that's being put on by the local shop. So as a casual player I'm ok with losing as long as I'm having a good time. Of course I want to win too but not at the expense of creating stupid lists that aren't fun to play with the only goal being overpowered and taking advantage of rules just to beat my opponent. But being tabled round one or even round two would not be fun IMO. I don't like the idea that the game is so unbalanced that something like that is even possible outside a match between a really good player and a really bad player. As a new player...I expect to get ripped apart on the table. But that should be due to my ability as a player...not because my opponents army is just insanely powerful and unstoppable. All I know is if someone pulled something like that on me...I probably just wouldn't ever play them again. Unless I knew ahead of time and agreed to the list...pulling a stunt like that just shows the other players character or lack there of and not something I would want to be part of.

*** I didn't read past page one when I posted this...perhaps things are better clarified in later posts making what happened not such a dick move. But again...from what I've read...it just seems gakky to bring a top tier tournament list to a casual game unless both parties agree. ***

Don't be concerned, this is not most games.

The people who do this are not necessarily even bad people. There's just a spectacle to it happening, you learn and you become a better player.

Can't tell you the number of times I have tabled someone / been tabled by a dirty trick. Would not love the game the way I do if it did not happen.

Like, there's no possibility of this happening in checkers, but the fact the game is more fair than 40k does not factor into my decision whether or not to play it. I haven't played checkers since I was in junior high.

 Saber wrote:
What am I missing here? Doesn't the Chaos player's strategy rely heavily on an alpha strike? And an alpha strike that depends on T4, 3+ models that are relatively easy to kill, meaning it's an all or nothing gambit?

Take some Rangers. Put them out in front of your army to force the Berskers to deploy far away.

Take Dark Reapers, or almost any unit with guns, and blast the Berserkers off the table on turn 1.

Take Howling Banshees, who always strike first and are ideal for mopping up Berserker units that have been thinned out by your fire.

I fail to see how the the Chaos player's strategy is anything more than a 'gotcha!' that will work once against a given opponent and then never again. It's still a decent battle plan since it places 40 Berserkers in the enemy's face, but you should only ever suffer one first turn loss.

These are not great suggestions.

Rangers are complete garbage and you really can't afford to take even one squad in a 1250 point TAC list in order to maybe stop one possible kind of alpha strike. They also deploy simultaneous with units using the Alpha Legion stratagem; I'm not sure what the sequencing rules are for this but there's going to be about a 50/50 chance that they don't help, or at least that you only get to deploy 1 squad effectively. One squad is also probably not enough. At larger points totals a Chaos player doing something like this is also likely to bring a small squad of Nurglings which prevent the Rangers from deploying. The Chaos player could also bring a Sorcerer to cast Warptime on one unit, which makes screening much harder.

The whole point of this is that if the Chaos player gets turn 1 you don't have a chance to shoot them before they charge you. If you go first then the Berserkers will be deployed somewhere less convenient for you. Dark Reapers are also very vulnerable to Obliterators.

Howling Banshees are also complete garbage. Their strike first rule isn't doing anything for you at all if they charge, and it only helps you when they get charged if multiple enemy units charged Banshees. They also just don't do much damage to T4.

And this is why everyone that can brings Conscripts.


Something to keep in mind is that battleshock occurs after the end of the fight phase, which means you can still effectively deny his second fight phase if he doesn't wipe the unit out. If you''re careful with casualty removal, he has to consolidate towards the closest model, and one surviving Conscript [or Guardian, or other cheap chaff model], can suck in the entire squad of bezerkers to save the guys behind him.

If you can't bring squads in "big enough not to die" sizes, there are two ways around it, either intermingling your squads or arranging multiple ranks of chaff units. Either way, he ends up being unable to kill his way to the back where your big guns are, and if your big guns are big enough, you can wipe out his guys.



It also helps to reserve a bunch of MEQ units, and deep-strike them on at your first turn and use them to mow down the enemy troops.

Nubster wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:
When playing a game it should be fun for both sides, at least that's how I see it.

As a potential new player looking in...this is the stuff that kinda concerns me about the game. I play wargames for fun and at this point it's not likely I'd ever do tournaments or at least nothing beyond something that's being put on by the local shop. So as a casual player I'm ok with losing as long as I'm having a good time. Of course I want to win too but not at the expense of creating stupid lists that aren't fun to play with the only goal being overpowered and taking advantage of rules just to beat my opponent. But being tabled round one or even round two would not be fun IMO. I don't like the idea that the game is so unbalanced that something like that is even possible outside a match between a really good player and a really bad player. As a new player...I expect to get ripped apart on the table. But that should be due to my ability as a player...not because my opponents army is just insanely powerful and unstoppable. All I know is if someone pulled something like that on me...I probably just wouldn't ever play them again. Unless I knew ahead of time and agreed to the list...pulling a stunt like that just shows the other players character or lack there of and not something I would want to be part of.

*** I didn't read past page one when I posted this...perhaps things are better clarified in later posts making what happened not such a dick move. But again...from what I've read...it just seems gakky to bring a top tier tournament list to a casual game unless both parties agree. ***

But it really isn't. One legal list is the same as another legal list. GW fandom is the only fandom that tries to demonize following the rules.

Largely because GW games wherein the GW fandom lies are full of horrible balance, so the expectation of a large number of people is that 2000 points vs 2000 points will be balanced, and so they make the mistake of collecting what units they think are cool... and then find out that tournament lists are all about sweet min/maxing and that their list that looked cool and that they have emotional attachment to is garbage because GW takes list-building as a "skill" and cranks it to 11 by creating obvious under and overcost units that min/maxers can easily identify and exploit.

Compounded by the fact that casual environments SHOULD be where you can play cool armies that are not tournament tier, but people will show up and say "its legal, i'm only ever going to play min/max lists everywhere, and you either need to git gud or go away"

I can play a lot of other games where the disparity is not nearly as bad, and people's expectations of what points are supposed to represent are vastly different than reality in GW games.

Busted units in other games get banned or patched. Not this one.

Lost track here. Just to clarify. This list wasn't even legal to start with?

Just going back to the first few posts, the idea of an infiltrating Khorne Berserker sounds ridiculous at first - but when you think about it, writing a believable story about such a character could lead to something almost maddeningly awesome.

I suppose the Alpha Legion are still Astartes and it's always been stated that most of the Traitor Legions are still Astartes first and foremost. Maybe the Alphas can somehow suppress the blood rage or they are able to refine it into something terrifying. After all, if Khorne's warriors could only charge into battle and never use any other tactics, how long would they last?

In other news - sad to hear that people are still breaking the game and still playing with stupid min-max lists. It's still the tournament players who are breaking this game for the people who just want to enjoy it.

Martel732 wrote:
Busted units in other games get banned or patched. Not this one.

Because it's not as big of a problem as some make it out to be.

1) You can get first turn.
2) You can seize initiative
3) This particular list has used half it's CP.
4) Charging requires 9", which is a little better than 1 in 4. Less than one unit will make it in on average without burning the remaining CP - even then not likely all of them.
5) Charges declare on several units means several units of overwatch.
6) It's a huge telegraph that can be seen a mile away by just looking at their list and is mitigated by good deployment.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?

You use them during deployment right? Deployment is a phase. There's no way in hell you can use that more than once. I'm challenging that all freaking day.

On that note, I also call into question his list. I do not believe that is a legal list and i also do not believe he's set up properly to be Alpha Legion.

Finally, this is a nasty list.

But, you really NEED to position your units to properly screen. I run SM scouts in my GK list so i can absolutely make sure I screen properly against all armies. I had a game recently, in an ITC sanctioned event, where a Tau player couldn't deep strike in range to shoot anything meaningful with his commanders. I lost scouts and all my screening units, but it was a real game after that.

And I mean every game is a learning experience.

I would say against this list, as Eldar, there are tools in your kit and strategies here that you could employ to possibly win. I played a guy in a tournament recently and tabled him without losing a single model. We talked lists afterwords, probably one of the most gracious people in defeat i've ever seen. Talk to this guy and understand his strategy, and what's he's using, and how it works. If you take away his deep strike, all you really need to do is kill marines and deal with psykers. Can you kill MEQ? I would hope so.

 Purifier wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Is the stratagem allowed to be used 3 times just because it's outside of normal "phases?"

I would have assumed that the intent would be for it to be only used once.

Have you read the rulebook? The exact same rule that limits stratagems to once per phase has an exception in the rule for stratagems used outside of normal phases. Like there is literally an entire extra sentence specifically contradicting the intent to only be used once.

Why are you being so stupidly confrontational?

Don't worry. Just ignore it. Yes, at first glance you very much could have assumed that. With this being a new edition, there's some weird little things to a few of the rules, it trips a lot of people up. Stratagems used "before" the first phase may be used as long as you have the CP to do so. Beyond that time, it's limited to one stratagem of each type per phase.

Ex.) You may use forward operatives 3x during deployment
You may not reroll dice in your shooting phase more than once, with the reroll stratagem.