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Probably talking about the Delaque sprue.

What impression will the game designers give when streaming about the rules? Will they just brag about the good stuff, or confess they have made a mess during the past year and is now going to fix everything? I've had some first-hand experience with some of the creators of N17 and they don't seem to be care or even comprehend many of the problems they put in print.

I would have hoped for a grittier lo-tech version of Delaque than the current miniatures, even if they are very nicely designed for what they are. I felt the same about Van Saar. Also, the trenchcoats look really dysfunctional for running, climbing ladders etc, but then again I love the Cawdor models (just the Blanchesque lo-tech look I love and prefer) and those guys run around with lit candles on their heads and shoulders

I kinda view the new delaque as you turn around and they are just there, you never actually see them sneak around they are just creepily popping up while you wonder how they even managed it. Adding to the reasons people dont like dealing with delaque.

Baxx wrote:
Probably talking about the Delaque sprue.

What impression will the game designers give when streaming about the rules? Will they just brag about the good stuff, or confess they have made a mess during the past year and is now going to fix everything? I've had some first-hand experience with some of the creators of N17 and they don't seem to be care or even comprehend many of the problems they put in print.

Well let's not pretend you're interested in being pleased, ja?
Away with you troll.

Let's avoid accusations of trolling, please, as that tends to quickly derail threads.

If you don't think an argument has merit, just ignore it, or refute it with reason / examples / facts if you do want to engage.

Thanks all!

I definitely won't be missing this stream. Hopefully they show off the Delaque sprue, dice, and give at least a brief overview of both new books. I'd also like to know if they plan on re releasing the accessories pack, or at least repackaging those tokens and templates into a new pack.

With the potential for the complete gang book and rule book I'm on the cusp of finally getting back into Necromunda ...but if they feth this up, it may well mean I give the game a pass and just move on. If the new books are anywhere in the realm of how awful the current printed materials are...I don't think i can give them money in good conscience. I've never seen a more poor product than the rulebook from the main box, etc.

So if you're reading any of this GW...don't cock it up. Please. Give us a professional product. I'm not the only one in my group or local area who has been put-off by the way GW launched Necromunda. We're all more or less waiting for compendiums. Let's see how they do.

I hope they announce another Gang War book -OR- that the Compendium has GSC/Chaos Cults/Vanguard rules.

Neronoxx wrote:

Well let's not pretend you're interested in being pleased, ja?
Away with you troll.

It is impossible for anyone to be pleased with how the rules are written and released so far. The pending compendium is their last chance to make it right. If they fail miserably this time, N17 will most likely be reserved for those hardcore enthusiasts that kept playing the game in the dark and developed the community edition. My impression is the game developers doesn't care or are not aware of all the problems that has been discussed and house-ruled countless times on various forums (especially yaktribe forum). I hope to see this being addressed and fixed in the rules compilation, and will be pleased if it is. But if they just brag about whatever else and the same problems persists, I'm not gonna be pleased, no.

Tcumulative Gang War way of adding rules isn't perfect - most notably in the fact that weapons profiles aren't always consistent - but I don't have a huge problem with the way it was done. To be clear, Necromunda being released in 2017 with all six gangs and all the rules now available wasn't an option, so saying "they should have released all the rules at once" is irrelevant - the later material didn't exist at the time of publication, and some of it probably couldn't have been done prior to release anyway. For example, the Cawdor gang; the rules and background and miniatures all fed back on each other as the design progressed, and the miniatures wouldn't have been sculpted before the game was released. Some of the scenarios in later books were there due to player feedback, so again, couldn't have been in the initial rules.

I didn't have any problems running a campaign and adding in the new material as it was published.

As for rules fixes, that's a tricky one for any company; do you create new material, or revise the old? If you do the former, people complain about errors. if you do the latter, they complain there's no new material, and whatevcer you do, people complain there's no "support". I don't understand the reluctance of the more vocal players to just make changes to things they don't like in games, myself.

Neronoxx wrote:

Well let's not pretend you're interested in being pleased, ja?
Away with you troll.

Baxx has done more to make Necromunda playable than GW has. What have you done?

In terms of the books. They need to work on their consistency sure.

But, when we first found out, I did say that for me whether or not they're worth it would depend solely upon the content. I accepted that periodicals help keep the game selling, and that may be necessary to keep it in production. No problem there. But if they were just fobbing us off with a smattering of rules, I'd be unhappy.

Me, I've got all the Gang War books so far. And on balance, I'm happy with what I've paid for.

When it comes to the compendium, if it collects everything in one place, and does a general tidy up, that'd be reason enough for me to invest.

YMMV of course.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

Well let's not pretend you're interested in being pleased, ja?
Away with you troll.

Baxx has done more to make Necromunda playable than GW has. What have you done?

What has he done? A genuine question; I've managed to run and play in two Necromunda campaigns since the release of the new game. I literally couldn't have done that without GW, and yet I don't remember Baxx helping me out there ...

For those of us who were there when the first Necromunda came out, we got rules in drips and drags too. All the outlander rules, wasteland guys and alternate gangs in citedal journal, gang war and white dwarf. Now we are getting unique gangs with unique rules instead of 6 photocopies who just picked different skills. Harder to balance and so many more options as well as new plastics instead of metals. Sometimes it’s hard to remember how long it took to roll out the old stuff.

I still haven’t bought in as my hobby budget is really low right now and I’m waiting for a compendium and wanted to see the core 6 gangs before I decided.

A compendium could find favor with me - there was a brief flurry of interest in the game around here which died out before I even got to play. But a stable, complete set of rules with a good campaign could make all the difference, especially with all the gangs out.

On the subject of the rules, I'd also like to comment that I've never heard of a Necromunda group that didn't house rule their campaign up the wazoo.

Seriously. Pretty much the only thing peeps had in common across groups was how movement, shooting and combat was resolved. Everything else was tinkered with, rejigged, reviewed, reworked and occasionally replaced entirely.

There's even multiple articles on Warhammer Community with examples of this. It's positively encouraged.

Anyone who becomes a rules lawyer for a campaign game is a buzzkill in my book, and not someone who'll be invited back.

Yeah, we've had to make a few on the fly rulings in our games. One thing that I will mention - the current game is clunky when you have to cross reference 4-5 books to play a single game. For an example of a recent game: Van Saar V Goliath playing the Escort mission in Zone Mortalis with the dangerous tiles. 5 fecking books. Rulebook, Book 1 for Goliath and campaign rules, Book 2 for the tile rules, book 3 for the Van Saar and book 4 for the scenario. That was a tiresome game!

Role on the compendium!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the subject of the rules, I'd also like to comment that I've never heard of a Necromunda group that didn't house rule their campaign up the wazoo.

Seriously. Pretty much the only thing peeps had in common across groups was how movement, shooting and combat was resolved. Everything else was tinkered with, rejigged, reviewed, reworked and occasionally replaced entirely.

There's even multiple articles on Warhammer Community with examples of this. It's positively encouraged.

Anyone who becomes a rules lawyer for a campaign game is a buzzkill in my book, and not someone who'll be invited back.

And? So? But? Therefore?

None of this is an excuse for a shoddy product. If anything, it's proof that the game needed to be home-brewed/patched into oblivion.

Maybe you don't remember, but when GW combined the Rulebook and the Sourcebook into a single standalone release, called "Necromunda: Underhive", it shipped with all the same errors from the original books. Nothing was fixed. People are afraid of a repeat here.

 Theophony wrote:
For those of us who were there when the first Necromunda came out, we got rules in drips and drags too.

That's not even remotely true. Necromunda was feature complete upon release. Outlanders was a massive rules expansion. Outside of Pit Slave gangs pretty much everything that came after was optional/experimental, with very specific exceptions (Chaos Cults were an official gang).

 Theophony wrote:
For those of us who were there when the first Necromunda came out, we got rules in drips and drags too. All the outlander rules, wasteland guys and alternate gangs in citedal journal, gang war and white dwarf. Now we are getting unique gangs with unique rules instead of 6 photocopies who just picked different skills. Harder to balance and so many more options as well as new plastics instead of metals. Sometimes it’s hard to remember how long it took to roll out the old stuff.

I still haven’t bought in as my hobby budget is really low right now and I’m waiting for a compendium and wanted to see the core 6 gangs before I decided.

Those of us who were there when the first Necromunda came out will recall that GW as a company was a fraction of the size with a fraction of the resources they currently enjoy. Lets not pretend it's somehow beyond them these days to create a rules product that consisted of the six new-styled and fancified gangs, a Dominion-style campaign system, and the accompanying items, it simply doesn't fit with their present-day business strategy to release rules without models, or to take on any risk that can be avoided. And, given it is in fact a choice rather than an unavoidable necessity, it's perfectly fair if people want to criticise that choice.

It's also perfectly fair to acknowledge a version of N17 that didn't fit GW's present business strategy has essentially zero chance of being made while still pointing out the problems the approach that was taken caused. The mayfly-gamer is obsessed with "ongoing support" and won't touch anything that doesn't have a regular and continuing release schedule to go with it, but they're not the people who buy multiple forces, run demo games, run campaigns, and keep systems like this going for years & years after GW and the mayflies have flitted off elsewhere, and a lot of that type of person were put off by not having a completed core experience available, something that wouldn't be radically upended every couple of months.

Folk need to stop trying to equate Outlanders et al - which was the original version of "ongoing support" - with the core game Necromunda, which regardless of having less distinctive gangs was a complete and functional experience. Indeed the reason it lasted long enough to need and justify further content was that the complete and functional core experience was so good. I very much hope that these two books will provide that core going forward, and that they will be of a higher standard of quality in terms of editing and proofreading than has been the case up until now, but I am extremely glad that I elected to stay well clear of the rules unless and until such a compilation was released because from what I've seen of the folk who did attempt to follow along with the release model it was bloody nightmarish trying to run a campaign. It's also worth noting that the present strategy could begin to backfire - if people begin to grasp that the folk buying content as it's release are essentially engaging in a paid beta test for the future (hopefully)superior compiled version, enough of them could begin joining the abstainers to wait for that version that GW decide the sales aren't there to justify its creation, despite the fact that the sales would only be absent because of GW's own strategy.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Indeed the reason it lasted long enough to need and justify further content was that the complete and functional core experience was so good.

That and virtually every GW game got a mid-sized box expansion.

WFB got Warhammer Magic (and then Chaos got their own box). 40K got Dark Millennium. The original Space Hulk got two. Blood Bowl got Deathzone. Quest differed in the way they handled new releases, and in Space Marine 2nd Ed every race (or groups of races) got a mid-sized box release for all their stuff. Hell, Epic's biggest expansion was a full-sized box.

It was the way GW did things back then, and in the case of Necromunda it could have never come out and the game still would have been 'complete' as written. The idea that Necro's release method then and now are in any way similar is nonsense.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Tcumulative Gang War way of adding rules isn't perfect - most notably in the fact that weapons profiles aren't always consistent - but I don't have a huge problem with the way it was done. To be clear, Necromunda being released in 2017 with all six gangs and all the rules now available wasn't an option, so saying "they should have released all the rules at once" is irrelevant - the later material didn't exist at the time of publication, and some of it probably couldn't have been done prior to release anyway. For example, the Cawdor gang; the rules and background and miniatures all fed back on each other as the design progressed, and the miniatures wouldn't have been sculpted before the game was released. Some of the scenarios in later books were there due to player feedback, so again, couldn't have been in the initial rules.

I didn't have any problems running a campaign and adding in the new material as it was published.

As for rules fixes, that's a tricky one for any company; do you create new material, or revise the old? If you do the former, people complain about errors. if you do the latter, they complain there's no new material, and whatevcer you do, people complain there's no "support". I don't understand the reluctance of the more vocal players to just make changes to things they don't like in games, myself.

Why do I pay this kind of money if I have to fix everything myself? I bought the game with the expectation that this was a complete game. If they had labeled the game as "early access" or "in constant change and development" I wouldn't be disappointed or have much to complain about. I'd also think twice before purchase.

One option would be to release the game now, in November 2018, instead of November 2017. I don't think anyone would complain if GW kept Necromunda secret and released it now instead.

You had no problems figuring out how Toxin worked? How Blaze worked? How charging worked? How to balance blast weapons? How melta worked? How rending worked? What the correct profile of a lasgun is? How changing armour affects gang rating? Then you are quite unique, because these and many more topics spawned countless discussions during the past year from other players who did have many problems playing a campaign with unclear/missing/conflicting rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

When it comes to the compendium, if it collects everything in one place, and does a general tidy up, that'd be reason enough for me to invest.

I have already done that: collect EVERYTHING (and I mean EVERYTHING), general tidy up.

I need more for this compendium to be interesting (of course I'll buy it regardless):
-fix unclear rules & scenarios
-no more duplicate weapon profiles
-balance to blast weapons
-explain changing armour's effect on gang rating
++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the subject of the rules, I'd also like to comment that I've never heard of a Necromunda group that didn't house rule their campaign up the wazoo.

Seriously. Pretty much the only thing peeps had in common across groups was how movement, shooting and combat was resolved. Everything else was tinkered with, rejigged, reviewed, reworked and occasionally replaced entirely.

There's even multiple articles on Warhammer Community with examples of this. It's positively encouraged.

Anyone who becomes a rules lawyer for a campaign game is a buzzkill in my book, and not someone who'll be invited back.

It's not only encouraged but required for N17. It is impossible to play as-is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

What has he done? A genuine question; I've managed to run and play in two Necromunda campaigns since the release of the new game. I literally couldn't have done that without GW, and yet I don't remember Baxx helping me out there ...

I've played a continuous campaign for 1 year now, and it was literally impossible to play using the rules as written. It was a requirement to update, combine, house-rule and make a solid rules document. What I have done is making the rules compendium and updating it with every new publication. It was so well received I was given free Dakka Contributing Member status for it. I've also spent a lot of time discussion how to fix the rules over at yaktribe (along with many others).

For the record: I am 100% behind Baxx regarding the current rules being ruined by inconsitency and lack of proof reading.
In my book he is a true hero and his work with clearing up the rules is the only reason we still play N17.

As for the release schedule: I have no issues with the drip feed. On the contrary it has given me time to collect everything. I have even bought all books - even the latest Gang War ones that I hardly opened...

Given the history I have little hope in the compendiums adding much to the quality of rules - but with them we can atleast try to find answers to all of the problems without handling five versions of the rules.

I completely disagree with Baxx's notion that the boxed starter is a 'different game', but he's right about everything else.

All I can say is that I bought the game on release and played a campaign from then until shortly after Gang War 4 came out, and we managed to do so with few problems. We did come across some things that needed discussion, so we did so and carried on. I used Yaktribe for their gang manager, but none of use ever bothered haunting rules discussions online. I don't recall any of Baxx's listed things causing more than fifteen minutes' discussion, and some of them never came up.

Anyone catch the livestream? Any new info?

Pretty sure the livestream is tomorrow, still gotta get through another day.

Baxx, are you Aarhun?

If so, thank you.

No, but I have collaborated with him. His rules compilation is more direct transcript with cleaner design, but also less compact.

brute


pet





Also from yaktribe about the rulebook
They are hardback books, about the same size each as the old 40k/WFB rulebooks (I'd say about 200 pages each from the look of it).
The books have everything published in the previous books (they did mention Dominion but not Turf War though) but not the WD gangs
They are a new version of the rules that includes player feedback and have been reformated.
There a few new stuff (if I heard correctly, something called "house sub-plots"?)
There won't be a GW6 but Delaque rules will be available separately. In what form exactly will be revealed in the coming weeks.

Limited edition slipcase with both books will also be available [pictured].
New rulebook updated, reformatted, tidied up. Includes dominion campaign, plus new material: house subplots. Every previous scenario is in there.
All 6 house gangs, pets, brutes, dramatis personae, hired guns, trading post.
Everything published in books - WD gangs "not in final state yet"
It is more balanced, edited, proofread
Delaque rules will also be available separately, in yet to be announced form (next week)
Delaque background most changed from before. Clearer identity, but left some mystery to the imagination. Hinted at abhuman/alien influence? Slightly taller than other figures.
Gunshroud - stealthy.
Throwing daggers, longlas as heavy, stiletto knives.
Rebreather possibly because they need a different atmosphere?
Digilasers, webgauntlet (pistol), shockstave, and more webby stealthy thingies
Plasma, melta, grav, heavy flamer
Lascannon not an option (aside from Trading Post)
Spyker as brute - telepathy, blasting people with their *mind*
Robot with sensors Spekter, detection, some defensive measures but little attack. Background: bonded to master, grown from part of their brain

Delaque tactics: play at start, after deployment, move D6 obstacles, alternatively add or remove D3.
Play when enemy ranged, intelligence check, if failed attack fails and ends.
After priority, swap positions two of your models
Enemy may not target one of your models for a turn, unless that model attacks
Any round after first, darkness (pitch black) in effect for rest game - lights off!

General: Play when hit by ranged, another friendly fighter of your choice able to be hit gets hit instead.
At start after deployment, 3 fighters may make shoot (basic) action.
Pre-battle sequence. One opponent's fighter may not be selected in pre-selection.
Pre battle when choosing crews. Enemy -1 BS, WS, intelligence, plus 2 cool (drunk)

"Game sold very well in the retail stores"

Working on idea to incorporate guilders. Ally for gang, representatives in your gang. Not as whole gang.

Subplots. Started development early this year. Meant for GW3, no space, 4, no space, now in compilation.
4 tables, fitting card suits. Extra money as rewards on one whole table, so choose what you require. They represent missions from Nobles.
Add to reputation on other table. Experience on third. Fourth allows drawing extra tactics cards during the game.

Cards for scenario thingies are in Dominion campaign rules, but actual cards may well be re-released soonish.

Phyrr cats: resculpted to improve them, thus delaying release.

The rule-book open up with a lot of background, including new stuff (for instance, a timeline for Necromunda)
They spend time rewriting, editing and proofreading the rules


No more "advanced rule" non-sense apparently, they reorganized the rules.
They separated statuses and conditions:

Very nice, a Brute "psyker"! Hopefully they took great care updating rules according to user feedback this time (they hardly have before).

Delaque leader has gone up 5 credits, Champ lost some Initiative, but otherwise very similar to the old gangs of legend pdf. Oh, and finally the champ (and hopefully gangers) no longer have better armour than their leader.

Hardback would be expected (Blood Bowl almanac also is hardback). Somewhat more pages than expected, perhaps to fit most if not all of the fluff and artwork.

Did not expect WD gangs based on earlier rumours (they would fit better in a separate compendium). Maybe we won't see the WD scenarios either?

Maybe we get Delaque as a free pdf treat, but the old Gang War books will still be toilet paper.