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 Gitzbitah wrote:

Spoiler:


...there's a Van Saar head perfect for this. I might even paint him in obnoxious Mexican colors.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Kansas

Regarding the arming of juves, the old Necromunda anthology Status: Deadzone has a neat little story titled Mark of a Warrior.

"Armed solely with a stub gun and knife, the Goliath juve must venture down into a Milliasaur infested mine as part of an initiation test."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 02:31:57


   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Nobody should be playing with the strict WYSIWYG rule (or with the "models are stuck with their equipment all campaign" rule, for that matter).

Both of those rules were cynically inserted into the game to promote (*cough* extort) additional customer purchases.

Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.

Task #1 of anyone playing an N17 campaign should be to get all their peers on board with the elimination of both those rules (and I'm super sad for anybody whose gaming group is too stubborn/uncritical to agree to that)
   
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 Altruizine wrote:
Nobody should be playing with the strict WYSIWYG rule (or with the "models are stuck with their equipment all campaign" rule, for that matter).


Yeah, the rule we're going with now is "At least the weapon". Then again, we mostly do regular skirmish games for now.

If you are considering playing, I highly advise at least getting three kits and build your starting squad out of the first kit, and keep the others on standby for when a dude gets a new gun or something.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Altruizine wrote:
Nobody should be playing with the strict WYSIWYG rule (or with the "models are stuck with their equipment all campaign" rule, for that matter).

Both of those rules were cynically inserted into the game to promote (*cough* extort) additional customer purchases.

Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.

Task #1 of anyone playing an N17 campaign should be to get all their peers on board with the elimination of both those rules (and I'm super sad for anybody whose gaming group is too stubborn/uncritical to agree to that)

I disagree.

We've always tried to stick as close as possible to WYSIWYG around here. It looks better, and avoids 'Oh, wait... I forgot that he doesn't have that weapon anymore' type situations from cropping up mid game.

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
We've always tried to stick as close as possible to WYSIWYG around here. It looks better, and avoids 'Oh, wait... I forgot that he doesn't have that weapon anymore' type situations from cropping up mid game.


Let me know how that works out when you're running a campaign where you play 5 games a day.

Those grenades, knives, and all the other little doo-dads are going to start being a real pain.

Oh and have fun when you do your next campaign and all that stuff needs to come off.

I bet the unpainted models are gonna be a hit.


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Thommy H wrote:
I thought Arkhan Land didn't show up until the Land Raider kit was released in 3rd Edition (I remember the White Dwarf article about him).

The logic imo was that "Land Speeder" and "Land Raider" are kind of silly names - a Land Speeder doesn't even move on the land, and what's land raider supposed to mean? It raids the land? But they sound cool if you don't think about them too much, so let's invent a reason to have "Land" in their names.


Land Raider is a Judge Dredd reference.

Still waiting for my Killdozer


 
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept






 Altruizine wrote:
Both of those rules were cynically inserted into the game to promote (*cough* extort) additional customer purchases.


Cynically? Sure, they want to make money with upgrade kits or bying the basic box twice. But changing or converting models throughout a campaign isn't really a new thing in Necromunda (except grenades, armour or some equipment - that was never a reason to change or modify models).

 Altruizine wrote:
Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.


Yeah, you could just play with differently coloured stones. Miniatures don't add anything in terms of gameplay and campaign progression.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 05:09:06


 
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 insaniak wrote:
 Altruizine wrote:
Nobody should be playing with the strict WYSIWYG rule (or with the "models are stuck with their equipment all campaign" rule, for that matter).

Both of those rules were cynically inserted into the game to promote (*cough* extort) additional customer purchases.

Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.

Task #1 of anyone playing an N17 campaign should be to get all their peers on board with the elimination of both those rules (and I'm super sad for anybody whose gaming group is too stubborn/uncritical to agree to that)

I disagree.

We've always tried to stick as close as possible to WYSIWYG around here. It looks better, and avoids 'Oh, wait... I forgot that he doesn't have that weapon anymore' type situations from cropping up mid game.


I'm always baffled that those kind of situations can crop up at all. Every single detail of both gangs should be written down right there at the table, and glancing at the cards/roster is just as easy - if not easier since there's zero ambiguity whether they have a lasgun, or a lascarbine, or a las sub-carbine, or etc etc - as looking at the model.

If people genuinely are running into this kind of thing on a regular basis, I'd mandate people bring an additional roster along for their opponent to consult during the game before I even considered enforcing strict WYSIWYG or the daft "no weapon swapping" rule - printing a sheet of paper costs pennies, extra models do not; printing a sheet of paper is easy, for some people conversions are not; better to have as few barriers to entry as possible and to focus strict stuff for where it actually has a meaningful benefit over the alternative, rather than just needlessly limiting people's budget and/or modelling creativity.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.


Yeah, you could just play with differently coloured stones. Miniatures don't add anything in terms of gameplay and campaign progression.


Err, it's the WYSIWYG side of this discussion that wants to treat miniatures like game counters who's primary value is in how they convey and adhere to the rules rather than models representing the characters that make up your gang.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 05:42:01


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

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-----
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Let me know how that works out when you're running a campaign where you play 5 games a day.

Pretty well, for the most part. We would generally either sub in appropriately armed models as necessary, or leave bigger changes for between sessions.

It wasn't a criminal offense to use something that wasn't modeled. We just preferred to avoid it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yodhrin wrote:

I'm always baffled that those kind of situations can crop up at all. Every single detail of both gangs should be written down right there at the table, and glancing at the cards/roster is just as easy - if not easier since there's zero ambiguity whether they have a lasgun, or a lascarbine, or a las sub-carbine, or etc etc - as looking at the model.
.

It's really easy in the middle of a game to forget to check. Harder to forget when the model is right there in front of you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 05:51:24


 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Altruizine wrote:
I'll fight you if you disagree.

I'll see you outside then.

WYSIWYG should always be adhered to and not just in necromunda. I'm not coming around the table to check what's written on your roster cards every five minutes.

Also, given how infrequently equipment changes swapping equipment and touching up paint isn't actually that big a deal. At least it isn't essential that every character has a sword in addition to their rifle now. Swords in scabbards were surprisingly hard to find and that was when the bitz service was still running.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/08 17:55:28


 
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

It says in the main Necromunda rulebook "arbitrators can amend rules and change things as they see fit" (paraphrased)

The new rule removing restrictions on juves, as has been pointed out, doesnt make sense for several reasons. Therefore, arbitrators should just ignore it and use the previous version of the rule. Simple

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I just arm people with what the model has. If I want them to have something else, then for the most part that's fine, but they'll always have what the model has.

So if I want my Lasgunner who is modelled with a Lasgun to have a pair of Autopistols, then that should be fine as long as he has a Lasgun, but if he has an Autogun and I give him a Lasgun, then that's not on.

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 Altruizine wrote:
Nobody should be playing with the strict WYSIWYG rule (or with the "models are stuck with their equipment all campaign" rule, for that matter).

Both of those rules were cynically inserted into the game to promote (*cough* extort) additional customer purchases.

Neither rule adds the slightest bit of value to actual gameplay or campaign progression. I'll fight you if you disagree.

Task #1 of anyone playing an N17 campaign should be to get all their peers on board with the elimination of both those rules (and I'm super sad for anybody whose gaming group is too stubborn/uncritical to agree to that)


Uh... the "models are stuck with their equipment" rule creates LESS purchases, not more. You have less freedom to change equipment around and thus less need for additional bits.
   
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Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

And this is why I hated the "house weapon lists" in the last version of Necromunda, and why they were instantly house ruled out of all the campaigns I ran.

And we tried for weapons wysiwyg, but nobody was going to be forced to add a grav-chute and infra goggles between games.... it just got too damn confusing otherwise.
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thommy H wrote:
I thought Arkhan Land didn't show up until the Land Raider kit was released in 3rd Edition (I remember the White Dwarf article about him).

The logic imo was that "Land Speeder" and "Land Raider" are kind of silly names - a Land Speeder doesn't even move on the land, and what's land raider supposed to mean? It raids the land? But they sound cool if you don't think about them too much, so let's invent a reason to have "Land" in their names.


Land Raider is a Judge Dredd reference.

Still waiting for my Killdozer



Here you go;

https://2warpstoneptune.com/2014/03/18/matchboxs-adventure-2000-raider-command-1977/



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 08:56:07


 
   
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Cardiff

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thommy H wrote:
I thought Arkhan Land didn't show up until the Land Raider kit was released in 3rd Edition (I remember the White Dwarf article about him).

The logic imo was that "Land Speeder" and "Land Raider" are kind of silly names - a Land Speeder doesn't even move on the land, and what's land raider supposed to mean? It raids the land? But they sound cool if you don't think about them too much, so let's invent a reason to have "Land" in their names.


Land Raider is a Judge Dredd reference.

Still waiting for my Killdozer



And the Land Speeder is similarly nicked from Star Wars.




 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I see both sides of the WYSIWYG argument and quite enjoyed several of the humorous posts.

While I wouldn't enforce strict WYSIWYG on an opponent, I try the best to adhere to WYSIWYG myself. That means setting a core of the gang in stone, while having a few extras to swap with once there is development in the direction of rare & fancy weaponry.

This new way just breaks so heavily with the old. A juve is always dirty and poor, surviving a single game doesn't change that. Not until leveling up to Champion (previously Ganger) did they get enough status to be given more valuable weapons.
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:

And the Land Speeder is similarly nicked from Star Wars.

Although no-one actually says "land speeder" in star wars...
   
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Oregon, USA

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thommy H wrote:
I thought Arkhan Land didn't show up until the Land Raider kit was released in 3rd Edition (I remember the White Dwarf article about him).

The logic imo was that "Land Speeder" and "Land Raider" are kind of silly names - a Land Speeder doesn't even move on the land, and what's land raider supposed to mean? It raids the land? But they sound cool if you don't think about them too much, so let's invent a reason to have "Land" in their names.


Land Raider is a Judge Dredd reference.

Still waiting for my Killdozer



Here you go;

https://2warpstoneptune.com/2014/03/18/matchboxs-adventure-2000-raider-command-1977/







I had one of those as a kid.

Ironically it got subbed in as a Land Raider a lot when I was just starting 40K

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Okay kids, this is about Necromunda, not toys with wargaming purposes.



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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just arm people with what the model has. If I want them to have something else, then for the most part that's fine, but they'll always have what the model has.

So if I want my Lasgunner who is modelled with a Lasgun to have a pair of Autopistols, then that should be fine as long as he has a Lasgun, but if he has an Autogun and I give him a Lasgun, then that's not on.


I think that's it really, it's all about intelligent and conscientious use of WYSIWYG - it's not just Necromunda but alot of similar campaign/development games going back over the years.

Things like pistols and knives can be easily hidden in holsters, bags and inside jackets.
But, it's when you get something like a ganger being turned into a puddle because the person playing didn't realise that the other ganger skulking at the back with a lasgun was actually toting a plasma cannon that's not really fair. For those kind of situations Id expect the miniature to be substituted - if not, put a token (or even weapon) on the miniatures base. It doesn't look very good but at least for gaming purposes gives the opponent a chance to remember what weapon they are using.

But, it is definitely something that has always been a problem for this kind of game. By the same token you can't really expect people to start chopping up their lovingly painted minis.
My way round it is to make a new mini with the correct weapon configuration so you just swap them - although that does get more expensive and time consuming.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
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 BrookM wrote:
Okay kids, this is about Necromunda, not toys with wargaming purposes.


Yeah but that needs to be in the Caravan Mission or on my board now...

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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 Pacific wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just arm people with what the model has. If I want them to have something else, then for the most part that's fine, but they'll always have what the model has.

So if I want my Lasgunner who is modelled with a Lasgun to have a pair of Autopistols, then that should be fine as long as he has a Lasgun, but if he has an Autogun and I give him a Lasgun, then that's not on.


I think that's it really, it's all about intelligent and conscientious use of WYSIWYG - it's not just Necromunda but alot of similar campaign/development games going back over the years.

Things like pistols and knives can be easily hidden in holsters, bags and inside jackets.
But, it's when you get something like a ganger being turned into a puddle because the person playing didn't realise that the other ganger skulking at the back with a lasgun was actually toting a plasma cannon that's not really fair. For those kind of situations Id expect the miniature to be substituted - if not, put a token (or even weapon) on the miniatures base. It doesn't look very good but at least for gaming purposes gives the opponent a chance to remember what weapon they are using.

But, it is definitely something that has always been a problem for this kind of game. By the same token you can't really expect people to start chopping up their lovingly painted minis.
My way round it is to make a new mini with the correct weapon configuration so you just swap them - although that does get more expensive and time consuming.


I build miniatures that look cool, then equip them to match. It might mean that I miss out on an "optimal" setup, but it's not that kind of game. Occasionally I'd add some more minis and convert a few. If building and painting another model is a downside, then perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?
   
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Have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that there is only single (unmasked) female head on the Van Saar sprues... especially as a couple of the ganger pics in GW3 show some great female character concepts. Here's hoping the weapon pack won't take as long as the others have/are - and indeed features at least one alt head. Along with the rad gun (which is a very annoying thing not to feature as an alt. weapon on the base sprue) >.<
   
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Dothan, AL

 Pacific wrote:
It says in the main Necromunda rulebook "arbitrators can amend rules and change things as they see fit" (paraphrased)

The new rule removing restrictions on juves, as has been pointed out, doesnt make sense for several reasons. Therefore, arbitrators should just ignore it and use the previous version of the rule. Simple


What new rule on the juve restrictions? What/where is it?

And on the WYSIWYG, it has always made sense that the primary weapon/weapons should be visible and match, but secondary and war gear could be more flexible. I have no problem with a lasgun equipped model also having a sword and pistol but not having them modeled, or vice a versa depending on the pose, but if your gonna have a model with a special or heavy weapon, then its just nice to be able to pick those models out both as the primary player and also as the opponent. I would hate to run against a gang where each one is toting a pistol on the model, but every one of them has a different addition heavy or special weapon not shown,,, go the other way, not a big deal.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those ... moments will be lost in time, like tears...in rain
 
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:

But, it is definitely something that has always been a problem for this kind of game. By the same token you can't really expect people to start chopping up their lovingly painted minis.
My way round it is to make a new mini with the correct weapon configuration so you just swap them - although that does get more expensive and time consuming.


I build miniatures that look cool, then equip them to match. It might mean that I miss out on an "optimal" setup, but it's not that kind of game. Occasionally I'd add some more minis and convert a few. If building and painting another model is a downside, then perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?


Haha!

I love that part of it actually - but not batches of very similar minis with the same colour scheme, which you could end up doing if you have to paint lots of different weapon combinations. I have way to many things tempting me from the painting queue..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 20:16:07


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
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Have any third party companies created weapons/bits options for Necromunda's new line?

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Alright, got my starting six Van Saars built this morning and can report on the modularity of the kit.

Legs are specific to their body and only fit on one way.
All of the male necks are interchangeable, but the female has a specific neck so every lady will always be looking the same direction.
Any head will fit on any neck. You could if you wanted put dude head on lady body or vise verse.
All of the arms will work on any body and are not noticeably larger/smaller. The ladies don’t need to be dual wielding pistols.
Any gun barrel will fit on any gun grip. HOWEVER this is deceptive because some gun barrels only work with certain pairs of arms. One lasgun and the supression laser are made to be in the double handed relaxed pose. One lasgun and one las carbine are made to be in the double handed aiming pose. Every other weapon barrel is made to be wielded one handed.

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
Alright, got my starting six Van Saars built this morning and can report on the modularity of the kit.

Legs are specific to their body and only fit on one way.
All of the male necks are interchangeable, but the female has a specific neck so every lady will always be looking the same direction.
Any head will fit on any neck. You could if you wanted put dude head on lady body or vise verse.
All of the arms will work on any body and are not noticeably larger/smaller. The ladies don’t need to be dual wielding pistols.
Any gun barrel will fit on any gun grip. HOWEVER this is deceptive because some gun barrels only work with certain pairs of arms. One lasgun and the supression laser are made to be in the double handed relaxed pose. One lasgun and one las carbine are made to be in the double handed aiming pose. Every other weapon barrel is made to be wielded one handed.


To add to this:

'Lady' head almost looks more like a young teen boy, but I suppose painting it a certain way would make it look more feminine? If you're not particular about maskless women, you could easily use these heads as young male Juves.

Pay careful attention to what 'Las' you use. There's a small difference between the Lasrifle and Las-Carbine's barrel shroud. Just in case you end up getting them mixed up and run into 'that guy'.


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
 
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