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In regards to Hornets, my initial idea a while back was a unit of 3 with Shuriken Cannons and Vectored Engines.

-3 to hit when Alaitoc, but, at 300 points for 18 shots hitting on 4's it's a little hard to justify at times - especially when they will melt in combat vs most credible threats.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
How good are scatbikes without double shoot?

Amazing. I never leave home without at least 1 squad of 9 or 2 squads of 6

What are you usually fighting against?

Twin star cannons looks like the way to go with hornets to me. You lose a couple of shots versus the pulse lasers and a bit of range I think. But you save a decent amount of points, 86 Vs 110.
Three in an outrider detachment for 258 pts would be great support for a flyer/fire prism anti tank list.

kingheff wrote:
Twin star cannons looks like the way to go with hornets to me. You lose a couple of shots versus the pulse lasers and a bit of range I think. But you save a decent amount of points, 86 Vs 110.
Three in an outrider detachment for 258 pts would be great support for a flyer/fire prism anti tank list.

But then you still have the issue that you’re paying for the chassis and an ability that gives -1 to hit after advancing that you’ll never use.

If you want starcannons you can always run squads of Vypers, Crimson Hunters or War Walkers instead.

I always figured War Walkers were a better platform than Hornets.

karandrasss wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
How good are scatbikes without double shoot?

Amazing. I never leave home without at least 1 squad of 9 or 2 squads of 6

What are you usually fighting against?

Gene stealer cult, chaos (daemons and marines), drukhari, space marines of flavor, and imperial soup

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I always figured War Walkers were a better platform than Hornets.

They're pretty comparable in their efficiency IMO. WWs have their innate deep strike and 5++, but the Hornet has a better armor save, fly and two additional wounds (plus the capacity to take vehicle gear). Then there's the Wasp, which is basically a combo of the Hornet and WW for a smidge less than the Hornet.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I always figured War Walkers were a better platform than Hornets.

They're pretty comparable in their efficiency IMO. WWs have their innate deep strike and 5++, but the Hornet has a better armor save, fly and two additional wounds (plus the capacity to take vehicle gear). Then there's the Wasp, which is basically a combo of the Hornet and WW for a smidge less than the Hornet.

and now in my opinion, we should add the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons into the conversation. Points per platform... I think it is part of the discussion:

What is the best platform for Starcannons (or similar firepower - Hornet Pulse Laser, Suncannon, etc..)? Not only cheapest to deploy, but toughest and most durable as well. (given options presented).

Right now my vote has been going to the planes, but I have a pile of Hornets who would love to be used, same goes for war walkers and such. What are peoples thoughts?

I tend to take a squadron of 3 war walkers armed with shuriken cannons but that's simply because I don't have enough flyers (I have one Hemlock) or any hornets. I tend to find their deep strike is always a handy trick and they're decent for shifting back field objective holders. They're a cheap distraction too.

They shine in low point games I find.

WWs biggest drawback is that they're in the Heavy Support role, which is incredibly crowded. Move them to Elite and they're basically an auto-take IMO. Its part of why im more aligned to Hornets or Wasps, as outside the obligatory big squad of Spears FA is reasonably open for CWE.

Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.

karandrasss wrote:
Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.

Pretty much anyone who isnt running a flyers-only list.

Reapers
Prisms
Night Spinners
Wraithlords
Support Weapons
War Walkers

It's crowded as hell.

Sterling191 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.

Pretty much anyone who isnt running a flyers-only list.

Reapers
Prisms
Night Spinners
Wraithlords
Support Weapons
War Walkers

It's crowded as hell.

I feel night spinners are underrated, but that’s just me

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

I feel night spinners are underrated, but that’s just me

They're niche, but we tend to play with a ton of terrain at my LGS. S7 D2 rending indirect fire with Doom support is fantastic, especially at the new price point.

I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!

Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!

Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.

I'm completely aware of what they are, but I'm afraid I'm way past the stage for magnetising, all of my falcon chassis tanks were built years ago.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!

Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.

I'm completely aware of what they are, but I'm afraid I'm way past the stage for magnetising, all of my falcon chassis tanks were built years ago.

Oh how I wish GW would make a 3 tank one box set that’s just the slightest discount since you’re buying 3.

Are Prisms any good? They're like less consistent Predators.

karandrasss wrote:
Are Prisms any good? They're like less consistent Predators.

I think they are valid. Bit squishy but what in our codex isint? Linked fire with 3 prims is alpha strike goodness. Admitedly(for good reasons) people only ever use the d3 shot option but they do have 3 firing modes so in theory can be quite versitile.

One additional point regarding Hornets is the exclusive access to the Hornet Pulse Laser. It is one of the few weapons with fixed damage.

Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.

 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.

What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.

karandrasss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.

What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.

You could say the same about predators really, long range anti-tank doesn't come cheap in any army in the game besides Guard. Im struggling to think of anything in the codex that will reliably do the same amount of damage at range, for that amount of points.

The 1CP does more than just buff their firepower, its absolutely critical that all of your tanks can focus on the same target no matter where they are, considering they might otherwise have to move and sacrifice a -1 to hit penalty and potentially their shoot-twice ability. The flexibility allows you to work around any issue that the battlefield throws at you.

Plus they get CW traits and Preds dont get anything, if you wanna continue that comparison.

In a vacum 3 prisms with linked fire give you either(assuming they didint move over the allowence):

6x D6 S6 AP-3 D1
6XD3 S9 Ap-4 D D3
6x S12 Ap-5 D D6

All re-rollls. Yeah they are squishy but man thats some decent firepower. However is it 471pts decent...?

 Argive wrote:
In a vacum 3 prisms with linked fire give you either(assuming they didint move over the allowence):

6x D6 S6 AP-1 D1
6XD3 S9 Ap-3 D D3
6x S12 Ap-5 D D6

All re-rollls. Yeah they are squishy but man thats some decent firepower. However is it 471pts decent...?

I mean, just compare it to the other options.

Using the str 9 option (its AP -4 btw), 2 Fire Prisms using the linked fire stratagem will on average kill a Leman Russ or similar type target more than 50 percent of the time (average of 6.3 wounds done per tank).

2 Crimson Hunter Exarches, probably the most comparable ranged AT choice in the codex, probably won't kill it, only doing 4.7 wounds on average each. This is in spite of the fact that they are more expensive and are flyers. They're a bit more survivable with the extra -1 to hit, but its also a big tradeoff in terms of firepower.

A Hvy Wraithcannon Wraithknight does only 6.3 wounds on average to a tank.

A Hemlock does on average 8 wounds to a tank and is still a great value choice if you want flyers, but it isn't really long ranged, has to be pretty close which creates more potential issues.

Nightspinners and Warwalkers don't really compare at all.

Flyers can maneuver to see their targets all the time though. You lose efficiency when you move your Fire Prisms to get LOS.

karandrasss wrote:
Flyers can maneuver to see their targets all the time though. You lose efficiency when you move your Fire Prisms to get LOS.

True. But if you spread them out 9/10 times at least one of your prisms will be able to draw LOS and thats all you need to fire all 3 at same target.

And oops. Updated the ap lol

What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.

In a 2k list? Of course there are big targets, the multiple shot profiles let you get some pretty versatile shooting in.

They're pretty great, but it's a case of three or none. The huge range gives them some wiggle room to reach anything on the board.