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the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.

What's the T stat of a hive tyrant, I thought they used to be T5? Shouldn't a hemlock be wounding a tyrant on 2s now? Even if they are T6 it's still 2s because the heavy d-scythe is bumped up to Str 12 in the codex.

They were T6, now T7 in the codex.

Hive Tyrants will be T7 with the new codex. Although it will be possible to increase that to T8 during the game.

 Fafnir wrote:
Hive Tyrants will be T7 with the new codex. Although it will be possible to increase that to T8 during the game.

How much are tyrants? I mean they are tougher and have more wounds than wraithlords, and have more attacks, and are faster and can fly, so if they're not at least 250 points then they're kinda broken.

Oh and psychics.

I don't understand this like bright lance concern. Eldar are amazing anti tank.

Being spears even with the laser lance and xatapulys do great anti tank damage. Even against T8, and I'm not even talking about charging. Even with out charging equal points of spears beat crimson hunts in damage against tanks.

Repeats as folks say are great.


A large unit of fire dragons can web way and smoke several vehicles. Even more so grabbing guide.

War walkers are also super effectient.

You can run a barebone Flyrant for 170 points, while a groundpounder is 143. Even more decked out loadouts shouldn't get above 250. Two powers a turn, as well as providing SITW.

This is index pricing, but no rumours have noted a change in Tyrant costs yet.

Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.

He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.

So, in preparing for a meta where our psychic presence is heavily stifled to the point of being self harming and hemlocks are just not all they're made out to be; what is our identity right now beyond Dark Reapers? Unit synergy is going to become a lot less reliable, and most units look pretty mediocre in the face of that. Is the Craftworld faction going to end up becoming little more than an accessory for Ynnari lists?

 Fafnir wrote:
So, in preparing for a meta where our psychic presence is heavily stifled to the point of being self harming and hemlocks are just not all they're made out to be; what is our identity right now beyond Dark Reapers? Unit synergy is going to become a lot less reliable, and most units look pretty mediocre in the face of that. Is the Craftworld faction going to end up becoming little more than an accessory for Ynnari lists?

10 reapers with yvraine and a wave serpant provides great firepower that you can protect for 1 command point a turn. 2 fire prisms give you the ability to out reliably efficient damage on a single target for 1 command point a turn. Crimson hunters give more survivable anti tank. Where is out anti horde - this is the problem. gardians in wave serpants? Is that the best we can do? Swooping hawks? Those are our best options IMO.

That or include dark elder for anti infantry...but man I really don't want to do that.

So what you're saying is that Craftworlds are not competitive.

 Fafnir wrote:
So what you're saying is that Craftworlds are not competitive.

I think they can be - just not against tyranids. This codex relies on it's warlock powers to do anything effective.

I'd argue that if an army can be hard countered by another faction, it's not competitive. Especially when that faction is looking like it's going to be a major player in the coming meta. You wouldn't take an army to a tourney with the expectation of writing off a portion of your games.

 Fafnir wrote:
I'd argue that if an army can be hard countered by another faction, it's not competitive. Especially when that faction is looking like it's going to be a major player in the coming meta.

Hard to disagree with that. Though I think a solid AM army has tyranids number pretty easily. So it looks like rock paper scisiors to me. with the 3 top factions. Space marines are kind of a wild card. If they go first they can probably wipe out half your army with guilliman - but if they go second they probably can't come back from that. I do consider elder a top 3 faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Hive Tyrants will be T7 with the new codex. Although it will be possible to increase that to T8 during the game.

How much are tyrants? I mean they are tougher and have more wounds than wraithlords, and have more attacks, and are faster and can fly, so if they're not at least 250 points then they're kinda broken.

Oh and psychics.

I wouldn't expect their points to go up. I feel like they will be paying 200-230 points for their optimal load out.

 Karhedron wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.

This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.

Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.

Ah but see this is where Beil-tan become amazing.

Take 2 squads of warwalkers, each with 3 walkers with double lances. Take an HQ farseer with Guide and natural leader .Guide one squad, lead the other. That 12 bright lances shots a turn that all reroll failed hits. And one of those can't be "deny the witched" at all so you have one he'll of a fire base that has a ton of total wounds, 5+ invulnerable save, and isn't too expensive.

After that you really should not need any other anti tank, so the rest of the army can focus on what ever you want. Reapers, some dire avengers, wave serpents with shuriken cannons, wraith lords with shuriken cannons, stock up on that sweet reroll 1's, 6's to wound explode, and force your opponent to play your game, not the other way around.

Has worked for me so far with amazing results. Just played a second game with this setup, adding in the second squad and switching my wraithlords to shurikens, space marine player I played never had a chance when I got 1st Turn. Popped 2 preds and a squad of Marines first turn, after that all he had left for anti vehicle was a final pred and a squad of missile devs, which could not kill 2 Wraithlords and 6 warwalkers in time to make a difference.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.

He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.

I find this opinion very interesting. What is everyone else's thoughts/experiences on the hemlock vs crimson hunter? I've played two games with the new codex, first with 3 hemlocks and second with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter. In that second game my opponent ran three Crimson hunters. The hemlocks outperformed the Crimson hunters considerably, the auto-hits regardless of a degrading profile, combined with -2 with alaitoc, makes them insanely reliable through long portions of the game and require a lot of effort to deal with.

Both jets are great. Range can be a weakness of hemlock (like screening), but you have to pay something for OP. I'd probably mix them together if I had more than 2 jets (2 hunter 1 hemlock). Taking more hemlocks makes you outstanding against some things, but not all of them.

I'm participating in a 3 round local event. I've gotten one game in previously with a variation of the army, so this is a bit of a learning experience. Not sure what I will be facing today. Here is what I'm bringing:

Alaitoc Craftworld

Vanguard Detachment
Farseer, Singing Spear (Shiftshroud, Puritanical Leader)
2 x 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
1 x 5 Wraithguard with Wraithcannon
2 x 1 Wave Serpent with Twin Scatter and Shuriken Cannon

Outrider Detachment
Spirit Seer
1 x 6 Shining Spears with Laser Lance and 1 Star Lance
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks with Lasblaster
1 x 5 Warp Spiders with 6 Deathspinners, Powerblades

Airwing Detachment
2 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfigthers
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Brightlances, Pulse Laser

Not overly optimized. Needs to be WYSIWYG and painted, so there are some limitations in my list as a result. Ran out of time to swap out Twin Scatterlasers for Twin Shuriken Cannons.

I'll write up how things went and (hopefully) have some pics.

mmimzie wrote:
I don't understand this like bright lance concern. Eldar are amazing anti tank.

Eldar don't have an anti-tank problem. The discussion was specifically that Brightlances (and to a lesser extent Starcannons and Scatter lasers) don't tend to synergise well with the platforms they tend to be mounted on. We don't have a unit that can take 4 Brightlances like Marines can take Dev squads or Predators. Most of our units that can take Brightlances can only take 1 or 2 and usually want to be mobile, either because they have CC potential like the Wraithlord, need to transport units like our Wave Serpents or have lots of short ranged guns to bring into range like Guardians.

War Walkers are the only exception in that they can spam heavy weapons and can take up a static firing position. The current rules favour Shuricannons on Guardians, Wraithlords and Serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing the subject, what seems to be the best option for Autarchs in the Codex, excluding Index options?

The Footarch does not have proper model (unless you want to proxy Yriel or a DA Exarch) and Wingtarch has a fusion pistol which does not work well if he wants to Deep Strike.

I am thinking that the Autarch on bike has the best wargear. He has the mobility to support any units that need buffing and you can chuck him into assault against weak units on his own at a pinch.

so had a game vs necrons....was really happy with shuriken cannons! Scatter laser was no where near as good but one turn I did hit with all 8 on a twin link and wound with all 8 too!

Doom decided the game again and again....and he wont let his warlord get charged by Banshees again!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found a use for the Warlock Conclave!!!

Take a unit of 2 (mine are part of a Damned army). I keep them out of LOS.

The nice thing about them is that they get to take 2 powers and have access to the Conclave Strategem. From what I read you only need to have 1 alive to still use the Strategem.

So the tactics are this. Take Protect and Conceal. Deploy in the rear and use conceal on your firebase. When you pop out a 20 unit Defender Guardian with dual platforms in the Web Way Strategem they can use the 36" range to give that unit protect.
I suggest a Damned army on the Guardians and use the Black Guardian stratagem with the Celestial Shield.

My farseer pops in with the ShriftShroud and uses the Will of Asuryan. Throw in some deep striking Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks.
Now the Guardians with platform saves are 2+/3++ wont take morale casualties and 6+FNP and can do some serious damage and hopefully be enough of a distraction while the Wave Serpents deliver their cargo to finish the opponent off turn 2.

 admironheart wrote:

I found a use for the Warlock Conclave!!!

Take a unit of 2 (mine are part of a Damned army). I keep them out of LOS.

The nice thing about them is that they get to take 2 powers and have access to the Conclave Strategem. From what I read you only need to have 1 alive to still use the Strategem.

Not a bad idea. The Conclave stratagem can keep them out of range of DTW although you do still have to pass the Psychic test for the powers you want. I guess there is the Seer Council stratagem as well. I think you are right that it works best when you have a unit arriving from the Webway that really needs a crucial power casting on it to make it effective. A Guardian blob is one option but Quicken on a unit of 10 Wraithguard with D-scythes could be even more devastating. The only downside here is that if you whiff the Psychic test, those expensive Wraithguard are worthless.

 Karhedron wrote:

Changing the subject, what seems to be the best option for Autarchs in the Codex, excluding Index options?

The Footarch does not have proper model (unless you want to proxy Yriel or a DA Exarch) and Wingtarch has a fusion pistol which does not work well if he wants to Deep Strike.

I am thinking that the Autarch on bike has the best wargear. He has the mobility to support any units that need buffing and you can chuck him into assault against weak units on his own at a pinch.

I'm not very happy with any of them, though I think the bike Autarch is probably best.

Ultimately, if you're using him purely for his buff, then you want to be buffing about six times his cost. So about 650 points for a Skyrunner. And that's an underestimate since often when the main thing he's buffing dies you then have much less use for him, so spending his points on more of the thing you're buffing gives you the same increase in offense while also making it harder to kill them all. This just doesn't happen very often unless you're bringing a superheavy. What it comes down to is that a Farseer offers a stronger benefit for a single huge shooting unit, with Guide, and Yvraine can give re-roll 1s to any one unit, and then both also have a strong second use (Doom, Fortune, WotP). Spiritseers are cheap and useful enough that you shouldn't be tolerating any tax in your HQs.

If you're also able to get a lot of shooting/CC out of the Autarch himself, he looks a lot better. Although it's very hard to use him in CC effectively since he's so vulnerable to getting ganked. A handy estimate is: N = ( 2 * autarch_cost / model_cost - autarch_firepower / model_firepower * 35/12 ) * 3. This tells you the number of models an Autarch needs to buff so that you're getting at least as much total firepower as if you'd just spent his points on more models. So for Dire Avengers and an index Autarch with 2 avenger catapults, autarch_cost is 73, model_cost is 12, and autarch_firepower / model_firepower is 2 (Autarchs get twice as many shots). You get that you need to be buffing 18.5 Dire Avengers. With Blazing Star of Vaul it's only 10 Dire Avengers. This is very doable.

Meanwhile the new foot Autarch is probably not worth very much by himself at all. Likewise the winged one. The Skyrunner is at least fast enough to get good use out of his catapults and could usefully charge in alongside Spears while staying reasonably well-hidden. Let's say we value his number of shots and attacks about the same as a regular Shining Spear (he gets more attacks but you're also going to be more cautious with him in CC). Then you want to be buffing 12 Shining Spears. You'll probably be buffing 9 if you're using him at all, and so then as long as you also hit a Serpent or some Guardians or a Crimson Hunter you're looking okay. But you should probably still strongly consider just taking those 108 points and buying another 3-man Spears unit.

The new Path of Command is certainly worth something, if you're going to have a Craftworld warlord anyway. If you'd be willing to pay 40 points for 2 CP then he's a pretty compelling pick. I wouldn't count on this long-term though. Because the Craftworld relics and warlord traits are so below average, it's probably going to make sense to have a Dark Eldar, Harlequin, or Ynnari warlord starting sometime next year. And even right now there seem to be strong arguments for taking Yvraine and some Ynnari units despite the fact that you lose out on relics and codex traits entirely.

Well I am going to go with the Warp Jump Autarch with Mark of the I. Hunter combined with the Reaper Launcher for 95 points.

It does seem a waste of the Warlord trait but the sniping can be very situational and am hoping for more uses than not.

On a side note: About abilities vs wargear.... The general consensus now is that Hemlocks stones, autarchs forceshields, etc are FREE? is that correct?

thanks

I'm kinda wondering what exactly is that general consensus is based on, since last time even on large tournaments people actually paid for them.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I'm kinda wondering what exactly is that general consensus is based on, since last time even on large tournaments people actually payed for them.

I really don't know. One of the FLG articles made mention of an ITC ruling that you don't pay for them recently, but I don't know of anywhere to actually look up list-building rules for ITC tournaments:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/11/01/whither-the-race-of-eldar/

remember, Spirit Stones are not part of its wargear list, so it does not pay for them under most interpretations- though an official GW ruling on the matter, rather than just an ITC one, would be useful

And I think that with Autarchs and Hemlocks this is likely to be a big enough deal to get a FAQ answer in a week or two anyway, especially since surely they'll also be addressing index vs codex Autarchs.

Yeah, 200 price tag on Hemlock makes it's so much sweetier. Interesting thing is, Autarch on bike has it's own special rule - which is good design, yet others couldn't just get Battle Fortune, count the points in and forget about it. It's not like this shield is optional.
It is such a trivial matter to just clean up codex and replace wargear you can't do anything about with with a random special rule I don't understand why it's not a thing. Looks like designer's laziness to me.

Or perhaps GW cares more about PP play.

 admironheart wrote:
On a side note: About abilities vs wargear.... The general consensus now is that Hemlocks stones, autarchs forceshields, etc are FREE? is that correct?

That does seem to be the case. You pay for Wargear but not abilities as they are part of the cost of the unit.

As a side note, Biketarchs have a 4++ save from their Peerless Agility ability rather than from a Forceshield. It would be odd if other Autarchs had to pay for their 4++while bike Autarchs got it for free.

Nvm missed some of the updates.

You 100% have to pay for the spirit stone because thier is FAQ presadent. In imperium one the company commander gas a co bat shield that is not listed in his war gear. In an FAQ the question was asked if thus had to be paid for and the answer was yes. As such you probably also have to pay for the autarch force shield., but as karhedron says this is a sort of boon to the skyrunner autarch.

As for nids. Honestly, one of the hive is pretty good anti psykers. It would definitly feminist the power of a psykic heavy force. Even nids in general would with shadows of the warp. However it doesn't completely kill your chances. For one any alpha stone quicken style attack, and guide can all be cast out side of the range of most of the anti psykers effects. This is easier to do if you make your psykers skyrunner which in my opinion is the way way to run farseers and some of your warlocks any way.

The anti psykers hive is a none mobile hive. It's ability only comes into effect if you don't move, and it favors slow uniys. Additionally the only fast psykers the tyrannids have are flying hive tyrants. Things that I think we can kill pretty easily due to have easy access to tarfeting the model out. Do they die instantly?? No. However they arnt any cheaper than they were before ans if i rememver correct they are just as killy as they have been. I think they buffed the tail attack on this which is cool.

The spookiest thing I the mid force in my opinion will be the brood lors. Those will be difficult to deal with. You can target them out. They throw shadows at your psykers, and can deny and cast spell of thier own. More importantly they are also pretty fast, and cab make the attempt to follow your psykers around the table. Thus dampening your powers.

Honestly I think the new nids aren't much different than facing Magnus or Morty. Did you go first?? You're good. Went second??? Well it's a struggle, good luck.

To sum up the issue with Autarch force shields and Hemlock spirit stones:

These aren't listed as wargear on the models, and the ability rules text is different (in minor ways) from the text on models that have the option for wargear of the same name. Absent any FAQs, it seems clear that you wouldn't pay for these.

But there is a FAQ. The Imperium 1 FAQ has a question about Company Champions, who are like Autarchs in that they have an ability with the same name as wargear which bestows an invulnerable save. The answer says they have to pay for their wargear in addition to their weapons.

This leaves us in a pretty unfortunate spot:

First, there's a FAQ addressing a similar issue that says to pay for the stuff.

But obviously this is just not at all discoverable. The same issue exists in the current Codex: Space Marines, but the codex FAQ doesn't mention this. Most new Space Marine players won't even be aware of this, to say nothing of Eldar players. And since it's actually pretty hard to even see why there's an issue here, any Eldar player who isn't extremely plugged-in is probably going to leave it off. I remember several codex reviews that failed to include the cost of these things, and none that did include them, and these are by people who are obviously top 1% in terms of how aware they are of other factions' rules and FAQs and so on. Like, in terms of "how are people actually playing this?", almost certainly the large majority of Eldar players are taking these things for free.

Finally, it doesn't actually seem like the FAQ writer understood the issue. Nothing in the FAQ indicates that the writer was aware that the problem was that the Company Champion does not actually have a piece of wargear called "combat shield". The FAQ reads as if the question is whether models have to pay for wargear which they come with by default. You'll recall that this was a common source of confusion early in 8th -- lots of people were confused whether you even had to pay for default weapons. Further, the section of each index that talks about how you figure out the point cost of units only mentions "models" and "weapons", and (obliquely) "options and upgrades", so there may have been some legitimate confusion here about default wargear. So I think the RAI is really muddy too.

so how are tournament organizers going to handle this?

Thanks

sadhvikv wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.

He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.

I find this opinion very interesting. What is everyone else's thoughts/experiences on the hemlock vs crimson hunter? I've played two games with the new codex, first with 3 hemlocks and second with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter. In that second game my opponent ran three Crimson hunters. The hemlocks outperformed the Crimson hunters considerably, the auto-hits regardless of a degrading profile, combined with -2 with alaitoc, makes them insanely reliable through long portions of the game and require a lot of effort to deal with.

Their average damage is pretty equal statistically - the hunter is better against t7 vehicals too - considering it costs less and utilizes the 12" -1 to hit rule a lot better with 36 inch range weapons. It's a clear winner. Having powers is nice and all but keeping your flyer alive is more important than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
To sum up the issue with Autarch force shields and Hemlock spirit stones:

These aren't listed as wargear on the models, and the ability rules text is different (in minor ways) from the text on models that have the option for wargear of the same name. Absent any FAQs, it seems clear that you wouldn't pay for these.

But there is a FAQ. The Imperium 1 FAQ has a question about Company Champions, who are like Autarchs in that they have an ability with the same name as wargear which bestows an invulnerable save. The answer says they have to pay for their wargear in addition to their weapons.

This leaves us in a pretty unfortunate spot:

First, there's a FAQ addressing a similar issue that says to pay for the stuff.

But obviously this is just not at all discoverable. The same issue exists in the current Codex: Space Marines, but the codex FAQ doesn't mention this. Most new Space Marine players won't even be aware of this, to say nothing of Eldar players. And since it's actually pretty hard to even see why there's an issue here, any Eldar player who isn't extremely plugged-in is probably going to leave it off. I remember several codex reviews that failed to include the cost of these things, and none that did include them, and these are by people who are obviously top 1% in terms of how aware they are of other factions' rules and FAQs and so on. Like, in terms of "how are people actually playing this?", almost certainly the large majority of Eldar players are taking these things for free.

Finally, it doesn't actually seem like the FAQ writer understood the issue. Nothing in the FAQ indicates that the writer was aware that the problem was that the Company Champion does not actually have a piece of wargear called "combat shield". The FAQ reads as if the question is whether models have to pay for wargear which they come with by default. You'll recall that this was a common source of confusion early in 8th -- lots of people were confused whether you even had to pay for default weapons. Further, the section of each index that talks about how you figure out the point cost of units only mentions "models" and "weapons", and (obliquely) "options and upgrades", so there may have been some legitimate confusion here about default wargear. So I think the RAI is really muddy too.

Ive been wrong too many times trying to figure out GW's logic so my opinion doesn't mean much here. It's just really silly to make an "ability" have the same name as a "wargear" and do exactly the same thing but you have to pay for one and not the other. An intelligent designer could do many things without entering into this confusion. If he wanted to force the hemlock to take the spirit stones but not be charged for it he could have just reduced the cost of the model by 10 points but say it has to be equipt with it - you pay for it but the models cost is reduced. Or they could have just named the ability something else like...enhanced spirit shielding - and then it would obviously be a free ability. To me - the fact that it is named spirit stones is a clear intention that it should be treated like all spirit stones - you pay 10 points.