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Carnifexes are slow monsters, with limited range on their guns. If you want to get cover, your best bet is Jormandr. There are few realistic game situations where you'll be able to count on cover.

Let's do a little math. Number of melta wounds to kill it.
Jormandr: 8 Wounds * (6 / 5 save) * (1 FNP) / 3.5 ( damage) = 2.74 Melta wounds to kill a carnifex.
Leviathan: 8 wounds * (1 save) * (6/5 FNP) / 3.5 ( damage) = 2.74

So against melta they are equal (though the distribution might be a little favorable one way, I'm not sure how to calculate that.)

The number of Autocannon wounds to kill it.
Jormandr: 8 Wounds * (3/1 save) * (1 FNP) / 2 ( damage) = 24 Autocannon wounds to kill a carnifex.
Leviathan: 8 wounds * (2/1 save) * (6/5 FNP) / 2 ( damage) = 19.2

The number of bolter wounds to kill it.
Jormandr: 8 Wounds * (6/1 save) * (1 FNP) / 1 ( damage) = 48 bolter wounds to kill a carnifex.
Leviathan: 8 wounds * (3/1 save) * (6/5 FNP) / 1 ( damage) = 28.8

Realistically, the reason Jormandr is better is because of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons. Not only are you taking less damage, but if you CP reroll 1 failed wound against a Helverin it saves you 3 damage. CP rerolling a single FNP for a 6+ isn't a great idea.

Because knights are kings of the meta, Jormandr is usually going to be better. Helverin Autocannons, The Shieldbreaker Cannons on the Castellan, Rapid Fire Battle Cannons, and Gatling Cannons, you are better off with Jormandr. If suddenly the meta becomes all Hellblasters then Leviathan is probably the best choice. If you want to play assaulty carnifexen, then you want to go leviathan.

There is also something important about choosing Jormandr if running a list like mine. It means carnifexes have nothing to worry about from small arms fire. So the only guns that are useful against my army as deployed is anti-tank. Because most armies have some anti-tank, and some small arms, it makes it as if my army doesn't have to face my opponent's entire fire power on turn 1. Leviathan wouldn't be nearly as good for my particular list.

Math checks out, tho I think you're both wrong and Krakkafexes are the way to go. (Though for HVC I'd probably run Jorm)

tag8833 wrote:

I think I do fine against some hoards. Dakkafexes are golden gods at killing hoards. I've gone 2-0 vs orks in practice. But he isn't running a really competitive ork army. Just lots of boyz and weirdboyz.

Don't worry about orks then. You just described competive ork army. Boyz by the bucketload and then some more boyz! About only thing besides boyz worth fielding are grots and kustom mega kannons neither which is essential

Tyran wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its actually the same, but the Leviathan can also have cover.

If there are 12 Shots starting turn 1 till turn 3 against your Fex's and on average they all do 3 damage, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+ to keep it simple.

3+/6+++ = 13.333 wounds
2+/0+++ = 13.333 wounds
2+/6+++ = 11.111 wounds

Thats why i said it.

I would really like to see your math because that's not what I'm getting.

To make it simple, a 3+/6+++ has a probability of saving damage of 72.222%

Meanwhile a 2+ has a probability of saving damage of 83.333%

Sure you can have cover the normal way, but that depends on the terrain and Carnifex are quite big.

I forgot to say its AP-4, i did 12 shots, 3+/3+ -4ap 3D, a solid average

Using Catalyst on a single Carnifex when you're running 3 or more is a colossal waste of Catalyst. They simply don't need to shoot the one with Catalyst.

Leviathon also assumes that a Synapse creature is babysitting your Carnifexes, and the Carnifex have to stay close together. With Jorm, they can move around independently and only need to worry about IB, which has a much larger range for Synapse than Leviathon's 6+++.

 Zimko wrote:
Using Catalyst on a single Carnifex when you're running 3 or more is a colossal waste of Catalyst. They simply don't need to shoot the one with Catalyst.

Leviathon also assumes that a Synapse creature is babysitting your Carnifexes, and the Carnifex have to stay close together. With Jorm, they can move around independently and only need to worry about IB, which has a much larger range for Synapse than Leviathon's 6+++.

Yep Leviathan pretty much requires you to run Warriors, or spam Zoeys for the close Synapse coverage.

Yeah I tried a few Leviathan list, didn't like it. The synapse requirement is too restrictive imo, even when I ran a small blob of Warriors, Prime and Flyrants, I couldn't fully utilize my Carnifexes.

pinecone77 wrote:
Yep Leviathan pretty much requires you to run Warriors, or spam Zoeys for the close Synapse coverage.

Or just take our best HQ option, Neurothropes. They always contribute (especially after turn 1), and are an extremely good source of synapse.

When running Leviathan lists, 3 sporocysts are an auto-include for me. Bouncing synapse where you need it on durable gun platforms helps quite a bit.

What does IB have to do with Levi/ vs Jorm? IB is almost meaningless on both of them and affects them both equally?

With Jorm vs Levi you also have to consider things like... Levi can gain a cover save from being played well - and still have 6+FNP. 6+FNP can be taken from mortal wounds - can be taken in CC and still available when you advance (pretty huge in an army where almost every weapon is assault). The only thing that interests me about jorm is the ability to tunnel with raveners. Beta deep strike ruined this though.

The leviathan FNP only affects units within 6" of synapse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What does IB have to do with Levi/ vs Jorm? IB is almost meaningless on both of them and affects them both equally?

With Jorm vs Levi you also have to consider things like... Levi can gain a cover save from being played well - and still have 6+FNP. 6+FNP can be taken from mortal wounds - can be taken in CC and still available when you advance (pretty huge in an army where almost every weapon is assault). The only thing that interests me about jorm is the ability to tunnel with raveners. Beta deep strike ruined this though.

Levi requires your carnifexes to be shackled to the synapse due to the 6" range of their 6+++ buff. IB was brought up because one might say that carnifexes are already shackled to synapse due to IB... but since IB negation has a range of 24" and doesn't really affect Carnifexes that much anyway, that's not really the case.

And a 'good general' can not always get cover with carnifexes. It's extremely rare that cover can be obtained via the normal 'wholly within terrain' and '50% obscured' requirement given to monsters unless your opponent is just an immobile gunline. If that's the case, you should win anyway.

 Zimko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What does IB have to do with Levi/ vs Jorm? IB is almost meaningless on both of them and affects them both equally?

With Jorm vs Levi you also have to consider things like... Levi can gain a cover save from being played well - and still have 6+FNP. 6+FNP can be taken from mortal wounds - can be taken in CC and still available when you advance (pretty huge in an army where almost every weapon is assault). The only thing that interests me about jorm is the ability to tunnel with raveners. Beta deep strike ruined this though.

Levi requires your carnifexes to be shackled to the synapse due to the 6" range of their 6+++ buff. IB was brought up because one might say that carnifexes are already shackled to synapse due to IB... but since IB negation has a range of 24" and doesn't really affect Carnifexes that much anyway, that's not really the case.

And a 'good general' can not always get cover with carnifexes. It's extremely rare that cover can be obtained via the normal 'wholly within terrain' and '50% obscured' requirement given to monsters unless your opponent is just an immobile gunline. If that's the case, you should win anyway.

I wouldn't call it extremely rare. I would expect it to be happening basically every game - especially turn 1. Especially now that your own units give you cover save bonus if you are standing on a pebble.

 Zimko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What does IB have to do with Levi/ vs Jorm? IB is almost meaningless on both of them and affects them both equally?

With Jorm vs Levi you also have to consider things like... Levi can gain a cover save from being played well - and still have 6+FNP. 6+FNP can be taken from mortal wounds - can be taken in CC and still available when you advance (pretty huge in an army where almost every weapon is assault). The only thing that interests me about jorm is the ability to tunnel with raveners. Beta deep strike ruined this though.

Levi requires your carnifexes to be shackled to the synapse due to the 6" range of their 6+++ buff. IB was brought up because one might say that carnifexes are already shackled to synapse due to IB... but since IB negation has a range of 24" and doesn't really affect Carnifexes that much anyway, that's not really the case.

And a 'good general' can not always get cover with carnifexes. It's extremely rare that cover can be obtained via the normal 'wholly within terrain' and '50% obscured' requirement given to monsters unless your opponent is just an immobile gunline. If that's the case, you should win anyway.

The worst part of Levi is the 6" synapse, i'm guessing GW thought it would be OP if you got it for just being in synapse, really does suck.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What does IB have to do with Levi/ vs Jorm? IB is almost meaningless on both of them and affects them both equally?

With Jorm vs Levi you also have to consider things like... Levi can gain a cover save from being played well - and still have 6+FNP. 6+FNP can be taken from mortal wounds - can be taken in CC and still available when you advance (pretty huge in an army where almost every weapon is assault). The only thing that interests me about jorm is the ability to tunnel with raveners. Beta deep strike ruined this though.

Levi requires your carnifexes to be shackled to the synapse due to the 6" range of their 6+++ buff. IB was brought up because one might say that carnifexes are already shackled to synapse due to IB... but since IB negation has a range of 24" and doesn't really affect Carnifexes that much anyway, that's not really the case.

And a 'good general' can not always get cover with carnifexes. It's extremely rare that cover can be obtained via the normal 'wholly within terrain' and '50% obscured' requirement given to monsters unless your opponent is just an immobile gunline. If that's the case, you should win anyway.

The worst part of Levi is the 6" synapse, i'm guessing GW thought it would be OP if you got it for just being in synapse, really does suck.

yeah ofc it's stupid - because every other iteration of the rule gets it for nothing. Good thing it's not hard to have a nuero or hive within 6" of all your carni.

The point is it shouldnt be there, Jormungandr doesnt need to be within 6" to get cover, why should Leviathan?

Fluff. The reason Leviathan has a 6+ FNP is because its synaptic control is so great that Tyranid creatures continue fighting even after suffering massive damage.

So the rules reflect the lore by having a synapse requirement. But IMHO it should be extended to normal synapse range.

Tyran wrote:
Fluff. The reason Leviathan has a 6+ FNP is because its synaptic control is so great that Tyranid creatures continue fighting even after suffering massive damage.

So the rules reflect the lore by having a synapse requirement. But IMHO it should be extended to normal synapse range.

Yeah, I'd be a lot happier if it was just "in synapse" easier, to remember, more organic to the flow of play.

For me leviathan is a best fleet tactics among all. 6+ increases survivability of your units by 20% no matter what. Thats just awesome. Kraken on 2nd place. Jormungarl on 3rd.

-Sentinel- wrote:
For me leviathan is a best fleet tactics among all. 6+ increases survivability of your units by 20% no matter what. Thats just awesome. Kraken on 2nd place. Jormungarl on 3rd.

You might want to check your maths. For starters 6+++ is 16.666%, not 20%. Furthermore you don't always get that full benefit either. Basically to get max usage your model cannot suffer more damage from hit than it has wounds. If your genestealer(1W) suffers wound from D2 weapon you need to roll 2 dice BOTH rolling 6 to save it. If you roll 1 it's useless. Zip. Nada, nothing. So against D2 weapons your genestealer actually has only 1/36 survivability boost. Vs D3 1/216...(me I don't even bother rolling my 6+++'s with 2+ damage for 1 wound models. The 1/36 boost is not worth the time it takes to roll 2 dice say 15 times)

Obviously issue becomes better with bigger targets but even then hive tyrant with 2 wounds left suffers lascannon hit causing 4 wounds. Even if you roll 2 6's it's useless. So again it was not flat 16.6666% increase.

Yeah... leviathan is not even in my top 4 lol, Kraken > Kronos > Jormungandr > Behemoth.

Leviathan just has to limited restrictions on it and the stratagem isnt that good IMO.

I’d have to disagree, the Leviathan stratagem is pretty strong and easy to get off. It’s one of the few stratagems that can affect multiple units, and pretty much our only way of getting rerolls. Charge something with a couple packs of genestealers and a flying tyrant and it’s not gonna be happy.

tneva82 wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:
For me leviathan is a best fleet tactics among all. 6+ increases survivability of your units by 20% no matter what. Thats just awesome. Kraken on 2nd place. Jormungarl on 3rd.

You might want to check your maths. For starters 6+++ is 16.666%, not 20%. Furthermore you don't always get that full benefit either. Basically to get max usage your model cannot suffer more damage from hit than it has wounds. If your genestealer(1W) suffers wound from D2 weapon you need to roll 2 dice BOTH rolling 6 to save it. If you roll 1 it's useless. Zip. Nada, nothing. So against D2 weapons your genestealer actually has only 1/36 survivability boost. Vs D3 1/216...(me I don't even bother rolling my 6+++'s with 2+ damage for 1 wound models. The 1/36 boost is not worth the time it takes to roll 2 dice say 15 times)

Obviously issue becomes better with bigger targets but even then hive tyrant with 2 wounds left suffers lascannon hit causing 4 wounds. Even if you roll 2 6's it's useless. So again it was not flat 16.6666% increase.

Actually its 20% survivability boost, my math is ok. Reasons is that models you save with FNP can roll it again.

Simple example:
36 wounds model without 6+++ suffers 36 wounds. Model is dead.
36 wounds model with 6+++ suffers 36 wounds. It makes 6 FNP rolls. You have to do another 6 wounds to it. He saves 1. In case he saves it (1\6) you have to do another wound to it. Totally you did 36 + 6 + 1\6 = 42.2 wounds, thats 20% increase to survivability.

You are right about 1 wound models though. But if opponents shoots at gaunts with damage2 weapons, i will be pretty happy cause it didn't hit my monsters.

-Sentinel- wrote:
Simple example:
36 wounds model without 6+++ suffers 36 wounds. Model is dead.
36 wounds model with 6+++ suffers 36 wounds. It makes 6 FNP rolls. You have to do another 6 wounds to it. He saves 1. In case he saves it (1\6) you have to do another wound to it. Totally you did 36 + 6 + 1\6 = 42.2 wounds, thats 20% increase to survivability.

You are right about 1 wound models though. But if opponents shoots at gaunts with damage2 weapons, i will be pretty happy cause it didn't hit my monsters.

You still ignore the fact it's not just 1 wound model. EVERY MODEL will not have flat out benefit. Hive tyrant with 2 wounds left. Suffers lascannon that causes 4 wounds. Even if you roll 2 6's that's useless. This drops the benefit you have. Nobody, nobody, NOBODY always gets EXACTLY damage up to W model. More than that always works.

And not many models have 36 wounds...Sure the average boost goes closer to your statement the more wounds it has but then all those 4, 5, 6, 8 wound models the increase suddenly DROPS. Your 6+++ isn't effectively 6+++ save but more like 1/36, 1/48 etc.

FNP is NOT flat increase. Period. That's not how the rule works.

And the game has so many D2+ weapons even on anti horde weapons(knight stomps and avenger cannons for example) this will come with stealers as well. Tyranids aren't some super special exception in that regard where knights for example don't stomp your stealers.

 Badablack wrote:
I’d have to disagree, the Leviathan stratagem is pretty strong and easy to get off. It’s one of the few stratagems that can affect multiple units, and pretty much our only way of getting rerolls. Charge something with a couple packs of genestealers and a flying tyrant and it’s not gonna be happy.

So 1 fly and 1 non-fly re-roll hits of 1, yes that is good, but i dont think its better than the others, Jormungandr can give units DS, that alone can be huge, Behemoth can do MW's, 4-5 MW's IMO is better than 4-5 more hits, its instant wounds, Kraken is just amazing (i shouldnt have to say why), and Kronos can stop some insanely powerful powers from going off, like Ynnari power Word of the Phoenix (the double action one).

Its not bad, but the point was the others IMO are better, given the other traits are a bit easier to work with and arguably better, and having arguably better stratagems, this is why i dont think Leviathan is in the top 4-5 traits at all.

Wait Kronos is a top trait?

Sure it is good to deny psykers, but its bonus benefits to units that have to stay immobile to fire, so basically Rupture Cannons, Impaler Cannons, Exocrines and that's it.

Similarly Behemoth is pretty much only useful to deepstrike melee.

If you ask me it is Kraken >= Jormungand > Leviathan > Kronos >= Behemoth > Hydra >= Gorgon

Ehh - to me Levi and kraken are the stand outs and I prefer Levi because defense is what the army needs. Jorm is kind of okay but since it doesn't buff FHT - I will never use it.

I think hydra has some potential too.

Tyran wrote:
Wait Kronos is a top trait?

Sure it is good to deny psykers, but its bonus benefits to units that have to stay immobile to fire, so basically Rupture Cannons, Impaler Cannons, Exocrines and that's it.

Similarly Behemoth is pretty much only useful to deepstrike melee.

If you ask me it is Kraken >= Jormungand > Leviathan > Kronos >= Behemoth > Hydra >= Gorgon

Never said kronos is top, i said its better than Leviathan, Kraken/Jormungandr is best IMO.
Traits+stratagem for sure its one of the top 3.

PS: Small Detachments still count, if i take a small Kronos detachment, its most likely will be taken over Leviathan, i'm not talking about army wide, we can have 3 Fleets in one army.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Wait Kronos is a top trait?

Sure it is good to deny psykers, but its bonus benefits to units that have to stay immobile to fire, so basically Rupture Cannons, Impaler Cannons, Exocrines and that's it.

Similarly Behemoth is pretty much only useful to deepstrike melee.

If you ask me it is Kraken >= Jormungand > Leviathan > Kronos >= Behemoth > Hydra >= Gorgon

Never said kronos is top, i said its better than Leviathan, Kraken/Jormungandr is best IMO.
Traits+stratagem for sure its one of the top 3.

PS: Small Detachments still count, if i take a small Kronos detachment, its most likely will be taken over Leviathan, i'm not talking about army wide, we can have 3 Fleets in one army.

I do not count small detachments, Hive Fleet Adaptations are supposed to be army wide buffs. Sure you can always take small detachments and they will have a place in a competitive list, but that does not make a generally lackluster adaptation into a good one.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I’d have to disagree, the Leviathan stratagem is pretty strong and easy to get off. It’s one of the few stratagems that can affect multiple units, and pretty much our only way of getting rerolls. Charge something with a couple packs of genestealers and a flying tyrant and it’s not gonna be happy.

So 1 fly and 1 non-fly re-roll hits of 1, yes that is good, but i dont think its better than the others, Jormungandr can give units DS, that alone can be huge, Behemoth can do MW's, 4-5 MW's IMO is better than 4-5 more hits, its instant wounds, Kraken is just amazing (i shouldnt have to say why), and Kronos can stop some insanely powerful powers from going off, like Ynnari power Word of the Phoenix (the double action one).

Its not bad, but the point was the others IMO are better, given the other traits are a bit easier to work with and arguably better, and having arguably better stratagems, this is why i dont think Leviathan is in the top 4-5 traits at all.

Actually you reroll hit AND wound rolls of 1, on all units attacking that target. It is a huge buff.

Leviathan lists can be really effective, but you need to build around it. You need warriors, gargoyles and lots of hormagants to support big stuff. In general they are beta strike lists with a good mix of big and small bugs.