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Maleceptors really shine against the sorts of things templates used to be great for, namely bunched up armies full of buffing units. A Maleceptor will absolutely disrupt a Tau gunline, with all the drones, special characters and separate units it needs to work, and they can’t shunt off wounds to drones because it happens in the psychic phase.

I don't have the FW book, just Chapter Approved. Does the Grasping Talon of the Malanthrope cost any points? or is it just a flat 140 points for the single unit?


thanks

What are our most reliable forms of AT?

For example into wanted to pop something like a knight or leman russ ASAP and its being bubblewrapped by hordes, do we have any shooting that consistently drop it within a turn or two?

To remove a LR in a single phase you need 2 rupture TFexes or 5 shock guards in double fire.

Against the knight only the shockguards will do.

I’m going to have a bunch of games tomorrow, and I’m gonna try out 6 hive guard with shock cannons in a tyrannocyte with venom cannons. Maximum anti-tank!

 Astmeister wrote:
Maleceptor's overload also cannot be denied. Besides he also has a 4++ and is synapse. I think that both are reasonably different. You can even drop a Maleceptor with a pod.

And Point for Point Zoanthropes are better in everyway but Toughness, they do more MW's, Fly, same wounds, 3++ vs 4++

Just an update, took first place at my city's annual tournament, undefeated with most battle points. Pre-CA points (and will mark the final games we play by that ruleset), with a condensed system of ITC scoring.

Here was my final list:



I took the advice and made the Flyrant's have MRC and Toxin Sacs to get more AP, and I think that was the right call, as I did need to be able to threaten some sort of armour piercing offense with something other than Hive Guard, and it gave me the points to me thicken out the Hormagants to a better size as well which also had an impact. It did however, leave me with a constant play decision of whether or not to fly out of the Malanthrope bubble to push into CC, and I will say though it hurt a lot when I left the Malanthrope bubble to flap up and charge vs Guard, and then 2 out of 3 failed their charges and got unsurprisingly scoped in on by everything the next turn... :(

I don't know if the list was perfect. More board control might be nice. Finding the points to fit a second larger unit of Horms would probably be ideal, though the 5x man Genestealer unit that they would replace did everything it needed to.

I'm not going to overthink what I could have done to improve it, I'm just going to go from this point, onwards into the new Chapter Approved changes for 2019. Mobile Malanthrope gunline is fun, and my opponent's stated that they found that brick of bugs very intimidating to deal with, and the results have been great. Battlescribe updates this weekend I believe, so I'll work out what's next for my Hive Fleet in 2019 once I can play around with it in that.

Hope you weren’t applying the malanthrope buff to the Kronos Tyrants, that dog won’t hunt.

 Badablack wrote:
Hope you weren’t applying the malanthrope buff to the Kronos Tyrants, that dog won’t hunt.

eek, fixed, good eye. The list was copy pasted and edited from my original, forgot to update that part (both battalions are Kraken). Kronos did nothing for me at all in play testing. I don't think it would have done much for me today either.

 First Among Gators wrote:
Just an update, took first place at my city's annual tournament, undefeated with most battle points. Pre-CA points (and will mark the final games we play by that ruleset), with a condensed system of ITC scoring.

Here was my final list:

Spoiler:

Kraken Battalion
Flyrant, Wings, 2x Devourers, MRC, Toxin Sacs, -1 to hit Relic
Malanthrope

18x Genestealers
5x Genestealer
19x Hormagant

6x Hive Guard

3x Carnifex, 4x Devourers, Enhanced Senses, Bone Mace, Adrenal Glands


Kraken Battalion

Flyrant, Wings, 2x Devourers, MRC, Toxin Sacs
Flyrant, Wings, 2x Devourers, MRC, Toxin Sacs

3x Rippers
3x Rippers
10x Termagants

I took the advice and made the Flyrant's have MRC and Toxin Sacs to get more AP, and I think that was the right call, as I did need to be able to threaten some sort of armour piercing offense with something other than Hive Guard, and it gave me the points to me thicken out the Hormagants to a better size as well which also had an impact. It did however, leave me with a constant play decision of whether or not to fly out of the Malanthrope bubble to push into CC, and I will say though it hurt a lot when I left the Malanthrope bubble to flap up and charge vs Guard, and then 2 out of 3 failed their charges and got unsurprisingly scoped in on by everything the next turn... :(

I don't know if the list was perfect. More board control might be nice. Finding the points to fit a second larger unit of Horms would probably be ideal, though the 5x man Genestealer unit that they would replace did everything it needed to.

I'm not going to overthink what I could have done to improve it, I'm just going to go from this point, onwards into the new Chapter Approved changes for 2019. Mobile Malanthrope gunline is fun, and my opponent's stated that they found that brick of bugs very intimidating to deal with, and the results have been great. Battlescribe updates this weekend I believe, so I'll work out what's next for my Hive Fleet in 2019 once I can play around with it in that.

Congrats on the win. Awesome list btw, glad to see it worked out. Malanthropes are sweet.

How did you protect yourself from charges? Did your opponents end up castling?

I screened heavily with Horms and Termagants and even Genestealers at times, and put Flyrants in front the bubble who can punch back, and also fall out right after if the need be. I had a real toolbox of troop choices, and I just used it to be flexible and adapted to the match up.

The ball is fast. Kraken AG Dakkafexes are moving up to 14, Flyrants do a natural 16. I recall I broke through a Guard player's wall and started taking his objectives in very short order. The defensive play actually felt easier for that reason, it was the objectives behind me that I didn't feel fully confident I was able to fortify, as the bug bubble doesn't really want to split up or slow down. However I just strung Genestealers and Horms around to make ends meet, blocking space, holding objectives and piling them into units all at the same time, once again just playing them however the match up required (which includes sometimes just rushing them in to nom). I think that's the real finesse with Nids, and something I am improving at as I play more.

I want to run the same thing.....But I envision it more as an octopus than a ball......what with units stretched out.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

And Point for Point Zoanthropes are better in everyway but Toughness, they do more MW's, Fly, same wounds, 3++ vs 4++

To be fair, with the Malceptor you're also getting a S7 monstrous creature with Massive Scything Talons and +1 to casting rolls. It has a much more aggressive gameplan than Zoanthropes, who would very much rather lurk behind a wall of gaunts than mix things up at the very front line. Also comes down to which one helps with threat saturation more. Zoanthropes really want to be run with a gribbly swarm to reduce the amount of high-rate-of-fire guns pointed at them, while the Malceptor likes running alongside other monsters who appreciate that the big lug can tank the occasional lascannon shot with its invulnerable save and keep going.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

And Point for Point Zoanthropes are better in everyway but Toughness, they do more MW's, Fly, same wounds, 3++ vs 4++

To be fair, with the Malceptor you're also getting a S7 monstrous creature with Massive Scything Talons and +1 to casting rolls. It has a much more aggressive gameplan than Zoanthropes, who would very much rather lurk behind a wall of gaunts than mix things up at the very front line. Also comes down to which one helps with threat saturation more. Zoanthropes really want to be run with a gribbly swarm to reduce the amount of high-rate-of-fire guns pointed at them, while the Malceptor likes running alongside other monsters who appreciate that the big lug can tank the occasional lascannon shot with its invulnerable save and keep going.

Its melee will only get 1 through most the time, not something i relay on, if i want powers for damage i'm taking Zoans as they are more damage and more relayable, if i want a Melee monster in your face with powers, i'll take Swarmlord and Tyrants.

1 MW to a few units and maybe 1 D6 damage hitting attack all within melee range on a 7" walker, isnt that good. It only went down 12pts. It wasnt worth it with the +12 points its not wroth it now.

Got a couple games in with the changes, pyrovores definitely do some work now. Tyrannocytes are surprisingly useful for wandering around the battlefield being obnoxious flying machine guns. And broodlords are actually fieldable.

With CA going into effect, GSC right around the corner, and knights still being very meta relevant, I was thinking about trying this out;

Kraken Battalion
Malanthrope (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, unit within 6" always fights first trait)
Broodlord (The horror)

3x20 GS (Max acid maw)

Kraken Battalion
Broodlord (Onslaught)
Broodlord (Catalyst)

2x30 Hormagants
1x3 Rippers

GSC Battalion
Patriarch (Hypnosis)
Patriarch (Mind control)

3x10 Neophytes

Idea is basically to use the -1 to hit aura and the two debuffs to cripple fliers/big shooters, and use 18 CP to completely overwhelm an enemy line by turn 2. Double move a horm unit, double advance a GS unit, onslaught another horm unit. Rippers/neophytes can grab backfield obs. Deny any good targets for strong AT weaponry and make large chunks of enemy forces inefficient.

Could move points around to try to do a GSC purestrain unit instead of 3 normal GS. Could swap rippers and bring down horm units to 26 to get about 20 termagants to just take up space in my deployment zone.

never thought i'd see a 5 broodlord list...…….

Thematically its great, but you'll litterally never be able to bring it all to bear. enemy will just spend 2 turns killing all your stealers and trying to get at your HQ's then you wont have any damage.


If they only have shooting you will win since you'll have them tied up, but if they have melee as well you'll be in trouble.

nvrm

 Eihnlazer wrote:
never thought i'd see a 5 broodlord list...…….

Thematically its great, but you'll litterally never be able to bring it all to bear. enemy will just spend 2 turns killing all your stealers and trying to get at your HQ's then you wont have any damage.


If they only have shooting you will win since you'll have them tied up, but if they have melee as well you'll be in trouble.

That's a pretty simplistic analysis, and not really an argument in good faith.

My normal tournament list is super similar. In basically every game I've always found myself thinking, "Man, I wish I had another 20 stealers", but always prescribed to a balanced list approach so never brought more than 2x20. I've never had an issue getting 60 horms and 40 GS into the mix, and I don't predict I'll have an issue making another 20 GS work in a climate where people are bringing more AT than ever to deal with the knight heavy meta.

In this meta, I'm pretty confident this list will do well. Not because it's going to table opponents, but because it will win on objectives almost every time out. My only major concerns would be double fire raptor+guilleman lists, as they'll stay supersonic and block movement, then they'll hover and by then I'll probably be toast (unless I can mind control and use one to smoke the other), or another horde melee army as that will come down to timing for who screens more effectively. Though I think with 60 horms I should be able to properly screen, and the kraken WL trait allows me 2 interrupts. Knights will lose to this pretty consistently, Custode bikers with rule of 3 and fly changes are not nearly as dangerous, Disintegrators are not particularly effective. Tau fire warrior spam could be rough, but mass hypnosis and smart charging with horms can completely shut that down.

I'm just thinking based off of how the game is currently playing with no reserves turn 1. It feels like a jorm-MC gunbeast list or a horde list are our strongest options. My experience and your statement are at odds. The mechanics of 8th really favor fearless hordes, several tournaments in 8th have been won abusing this type of mechanic (Though ynnari being perfect for ITC scoring remains an issue for every army in most GTs). Often the winner at any given large GT is one of a pool of great players with viable lists, who happened to avoid a specific unfavorable match up and leveraged a small list advantage with great play and a smidge of luck to take a win.

I could also swap 20 GS to 30 devourer gants for screen clearing ability, though I typically like to use screens against the opponent to keep myself locked in combat. Or mix it up and somehow to 2 units of like 15 fleshborers, 10 dev or something like that for more board saturation and some more shooting.

Come on the maleceptor is stil way worse than a walkrant. Same durability, maleceptor has a really bad ability and +1 to smite. Walkrant hits on 2+ In CC, can take a now cheapish HVC, knows two spells, is an hq so unlocks stuff, the list goes on...
Maleceptor is good in restrained formats where ie rule of 2 replaces rule of three (I have such a tourney coming up) and you have already 2 tyrants coming up. And if you want lots of 4++.
But honestly for me with acid fex at 184 or exocrine at 170, maleceptor went comparatively down on the ladder of our bestiary. I really don’t see how anyone can be hyped by the thing.
I love the model I painted and based with much care and love, so I would like to believe in it too !

Trace I can definitely see how the list can hang around. It does have tons of bodies that can cover the table and sit on objectives but Shield captains utterly devastate it. If synapse wasn't so easy to take out then it would be a fantastic list, but even hiding behind bodies the Broodlord profile is not hard to kill off. 27 T5 wounds with a 4+/5++ is very easy to get through and then your snynapse is gone. With snipers on the rise, and shield captains on the tables they wont last the whole game unless you get super lucky with smiting.


I'd much rather have nuerothropes, which can rerolls 1's for psychic checks, have a 3++ and can heal. Basically, for the roll your using them, broodlords are wasted even with the points cuts.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Trace I can definitely see how the list can hang around. It does have tons of bodies that can cover the table and sit on objectives but Shield captains utterly devastate it. If synapse wasn't so easy to take out then it would be a fantastic list, but even hiding behind bodies the Broodlord profile is not hard to kill off. 27 T5 wounds with a 4+/5++ is very easy to get through and then your snynapse is gone. With snipers on the rise, and shield captains on the tables they wont last the whole game unless you get super lucky with smiting.


I'd much rather have nuerothropes, which can rerolls 1's for psychic checks, have a 3++ and can heal. Basically, for the roll your using them, broodlords are wasted even with the points cuts.

My experience very much differs. I have not found three shield captains to be particularly scary. My experience is that they get completely wrecked by weight of attacks and with the fly changes can struggle to get to the targets they need to.

Broodlords are extremely squishy, but it's really not hard to screen them when you have 145 other models on the board all moving in the same direction. Honestly it will be much harder to keep the Malanthrope screened. Snipers aren't exactly that efficient for killing T5 characters. Take an average of what, like 18 sniper hits to kill a single broodlord.

The reason for the broodlords is because they can kill knights. They average 7 damage each vs a castellan. They hit harder than Tyrants in CC. They average 3-6 damage vs shield captains (Patriarchs being S6 do better), so a pair can reliably take one out on the charge. If you get interrupted and lose one, you can spend the 2CP to swing anyways.

Swapping a broodlord for a neurothrope is definitely a legit idea though. Being able to bring a smite in addition to the needed power and then being able to spend 1cp to get a smite from a broodlord would be immensely useful vs things like shield captains. Two broodlords is more than enough to keep the buff out. I could also swap a broodlord for a magus+abominant for the hammer which I think is probably statistically more damage vs Knights but would have to double check.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Trace I can definitely see how the list can hang around. It does have tons of bodies that can cover the table and sit on objectives but Shield captains utterly devastate it. If synapse wasn't so easy to take out then it would be a fantastic list, but even hiding behind bodies the Broodlord profile is not hard to kill off. 27 T5 wounds with a 4+/5++ is very easy to get through and then your snynapse is gone. With snipers on the rise, and shield captains on the tables they wont last the whole game unless you get super lucky with smiting.


I'd much rather have nuerothropes, which can rerolls 1's for psychic checks, have a 3++ and can heal. Basically, for the roll your using them, broodlords are wasted even with the points cuts.

My experience very much differs. I have not found three shield captains to be particularly scary. My experience is that they get completely wrecked by weight of attacks and with the fly changes can struggle to get to the targets they need to.

Broodlords are extremely squishy, but it's really not hard to screen them when you have 145 other models on the board all moving in the same direction. Honestly it will be much harder to keep the Malanthrope screened. Snipers aren't exactly that efficient for killing T5 characters. Take an average of what, like 18 sniper hits to kill a single broodlord.

The reason for the broodlords is because they can kill knights. They average 7 damage each vs a castellan. They hit harder than Tyrants in CC. They average 3-6 damage vs shield captains (Patriarchs being S6 do better), so a pair can reliably take one out on the charge. If you get interrupted and lose one, you can spend the 2CP to swing anyways.

Swapping a broodlord for a neurothrope is definitely a legit idea though. Being able to bring a smite in addition to the needed power and then being able to spend 1cp to get a smite from a broodlord would be immensely useful vs things like shield captains. Two broodlords is more than enough to keep the buff out. I could also swap a broodlord for a magus+abominant for the hammer which I think is probably statistically more damage vs Knights but would have to double check.

I would definitely suggest transfuring to 20 Purestrains and try to get an iconward (for +1S) and a prumus for Cult ambush shanagins. Getting a 2nd turn ambush off with 80 S 5-6 atts hitting on 2+ would be brutal.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
never thought i'd see a 5 broodlord list...…….

Thematically its great, but you'll litterally never be able to bring it all to bear. enemy will just spend 2 turns killing all your stealers and trying to get at your HQ's then you wont have any damage.


If they only have shooting you will win since you'll have them tied up, but if they have melee as well you'll be in trouble.

That's a pretty simplistic analysis, and not really an argument in good faith.

My normal tournament list is super similar. In basically every game I've always found myself thinking, "Man, I wish I had another 20 stealers", but always prescribed to a balanced list approach so never brought more than 2x20. I've never had an issue getting 60 horms and 40 GS into the mix, and I don't predict I'll have an issue making another 20 GS work in a climate where people are bringing more AT than ever to deal with the knight heavy meta.

In this meta, I'm pretty confident this list will do well. Not because it's going to table opponents, but because it will win on objectives almost every time out. My only major concerns would be double fire raptor+guilleman lists, as they'll stay supersonic and block movement, then they'll hover and by then I'll probably be toast (unless I can mind control and use one to smoke the other), or another horde melee army as that will come down to timing for who screens more effectively. Though I think with 60 horms I should be able to properly screen, and the kraken WL trait allows me 2 interrupts. Knights will lose to this pretty consistently, Custode bikers with rule of 3 and fly changes are not nearly as dangerous, Disintegrators are not particularly effective. Tau fire warrior spam could be rough, but mass hypnosis and smart charging with horms can completely shut that down.

I'm just thinking based off of how the game is currently playing with no reserves turn 1. It feels like a jorm-MC gunbeast list or a horde list are our strongest options. My experience and your statement are at odds. The mechanics of 8th really favor fearless hordes, several tournaments in 8th have been won abusing this type of mechanic (Though ynnari being perfect for ITC scoring remains an issue for every army in most GTs). Often the winner at any given large GT is one of a pool of great players with viable lists, who happened to avoid a specific unfavorable match up and leveraged a small list advantage with great play and a smidge of luck to take a win.

I could also swap 20 GS to 30 devourer gants for screen clearing ability, though I typically like to use screens against the opponent to keep myself locked in combat. Or mix it up and somehow to 2 units of like 15 fleshborers, 10 dev or something like that for more board saturation and some more shooting.

Im inclined to agree with this, you have a ton of units that can contest objectives very threateningly in the opening turns, and are extremely difficult for opponents to contest safely. Yeah, it will lose to the Deathwatch player deepstriking 3 maxed out squads of Aggressors or anything else with a similar amount of squad clear, but as you said who is even gunning like that anymore in this meta?

I'm not going to say change anything because you know best what works for you, but one thing I want to make sure you've considered is a Primus with Purestrains or even Neophytes to threaten things like Mortars, as 3x3 Mortars with their board cut off will do so much work Vs you, and with no long range shooting you are forced to try a big slog to bring them down, which is both inefficient and clashes with your gameplan. The other thing to consider is Abominants, you don't have much AT and even in the rounds you don't find that wanting, they help in every scrap and chew through anything that Stealers may get bogged down by.

Again, you may find you don't need either of those things with the way your list plays, I'd just keep them in mind while playing, and get out there and practice with what you've got so far to answer those questions definitively for yourself!

Spoletta wrote:
To remove a LR in a single phase you need 2 rupture TFexes or 5 shock guards in double fire.

Against the knight only the shockguards will do.

Honestly Carnifex with HVC are how I do it. Give him 2 deathspitters as well - those aren't great vs LR but kill infantry really good - usually they will be split firing. Against venoms or something they are great though. HVC is str 9 so that helps a lot. I also give a few tyrants HVC - my lists usually have 6ish of them - 4 on carni 2 on tyrants. They are fantastic weapons.

I am late to the party. But looking at chapter approved. I see tyranids got some good point decrease. I used to ru leviathan warriors and both primes and venom cannon are cheaper. Carnifex weapons are also cheaper.

Swarmlord of cheaper. Lictors are cheaper. Jupp, jupp jupp.

I am waiting to try out my maxed out Warrior plus Trygon list.

I want to see them pop out and cause some damage and draw fire from my incoming genestealer hordes.

The enemy has to decide who to go after.

If I use my Harpy to block lanes of movement do some Genestealer units have a better chance of utilizing the Hive Node deployments? Because if you place if correctly the opponent needs to rush forward to try to remove them....Isnt that what we want?

(ofc you would not do that vs a very mobile opponent)

2 Harpy's with StC is something i want to try. Tho i like the HVC better, it being so much cheaper is what it needed to be.

143pts is still to much IMO due to lack of -1 to hit. But its better than 179pts, a 36pt drop (72pts for 2). I was really hoping for at least 15pts more off of it, but its a start.

I dont think its comp worthy, but at least now for local games its playable,

There's a lot of "playable" stuff now but I'm not sure that much is rivalling our best stuff. Swarmlord is looks good! Broodlords are the go to filler HQ choice now. I haven't seen anyone else mention them, but personally the unit I'm most excited for is Lictors. For the same price as Rippers, except with -1 or even -2 to hit, who can pull their own weight in assault too? Yes please. They check a lot of boxes, I'll definitely be running them.

 First Among Gators wrote:
There's a lot of "playable" stuff now but I'm not sure that much is rivalling our best stuff. Swarmlord is looks good! Broodlords are the go to filler HQ choice now. I haven't seen anyone else mention them, but personally the unit I'm most excited for is Lictors. For the same price as Rippers, except with -1 or even -2 to hit, who can pull their own weight in assault too? Yes please. They check a lot of boxes, I'll definitely be running them.

IMO Primes and Neurothropes are still better HQ fillers, but unless im at 1500pts or less, i will never need HQ fillers, they are cheaper, and the points of an HQ filler is ot be cheap but stillw ork, both Neuro and Primes fit that better. Between Swarmlord, Flyrants, OOE, i dont have room for anything else lol

I still dont like Lictors, the only reason i would even take them is for Brigade and then i dont like brigades. They only have a 50/50 chance to kill a T3, 5+, 4W character, and a 10% chance to kill a 5w version, IG, So, and other armies have many 15-45pt support character that the Lictor cant kill in 1 turn, if flesh hooks where not 6" you could maybe do something with that. I'd rather take a DL as its a character.

Also its not 30pts, its 34pts, you still need to pay for wargear. The DL is for sure better than a Lictor in every way, tho it does cost 26pts more, but re-rolls vs a picked character and character protection keyword, along with more attacks, and -2 to be hit, with more wounds.