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I didn't say they were 30 pts... and there is more measure to a unit than whether it can solo kill a character in a 1v1 in a single turn. Rippers are the same price and I've never had them kill anything at all. Lictors move around fast and hard, deepstrike, score well, can do damage and are above all are extremely cheap. Deathleaper is cool too for what he adds, but they are different units.
   
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 First Among Gators wrote:
I didn't say they were 30 pts... and there is more measure to a unit than whether it can solo kill a character in a 1v1 in a single turn. Rippers are the same price and I've never had them kill anything at all. Lictors move around fast and hard, deepstrike, score well, can do damage and are above all are extremely cheap. Deathleaper is cool too for what he adds, but they are different units.


Rippers also are harder to LoS see, has a total of 9 wounds and are troops, you are force to take troops for CP, so filling in 1-2 extra Rippers is never a problem. Brigades are easy for us and if you want them for Brigades, then that is 100% fine IMO. Especially if you already are taking Hiveguard unit and another elite. with 1 Fleet.

The 30 vs 34pts was for everyone not you. I've seen many say "sweet they are 30pts" and forget to add in the weapons.

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I understand clearly the difference between the two, and the costs associated with both. I think Lictors are going to quite good now, thats all.
   
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Personally I can’t justify Lictors as a cheap elite filler with the updated Pyrovore in the same slot. 75 points gets you a durable unit that will tear apart hordes. Put them in front of a melee blob like boyz or genestealers and they’ll decimate it with overwatch then take out 5 more with acid and explosions. Double shoot them at obnoxious planes. Their only drawback is a terrible model.
   
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 Badablack wrote:
Personally I can’t justify Lictors as a cheap elite filler with the updated Pyrovore in the same slot. 75 points gets you a durable unit that will tear apart hordes. Put them in front of a melee blob like boyz or genestealers and they’ll decimate it with overwatch then take out 5 more with acid and explosions. Double shoot them at obnoxious planes. Their only drawback is a terrible model.


Completely agree

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Couldn't disagree more. Pyrovores are playable now, but not super-ultra-must-include-maximum-every-list type good, or good enough to completely exclude other things in the elite slot from the discussion. Besides, who is only running 1 detachment? Should have ample elite slots to go around, even if you do feel that strongly about Pyrovore's being must-haves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 06:11:09


 
   
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 First Among Gators wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Pyrovores are playable now, but not super-ultra-must-include-maximum-every-list type good, or good enough to completely exclude other things in the elite slot from the discussion. Besides, who is only running 1 detachment? Should have ample elite slots to go around, even if you do feel that strongly about Pyrovore's being must-haves.


But Lictors are also not super-ultra-must-include-maximum-every-list type good either.....

Thats the points, for 5pts less and useful as counter charge unit, they IMO are more worth wild.

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Okay... I didn't say that Lictors are that... At no point in my post did I say anything about Lictors being so good that you can no longer take justify certain other things in the Elite slot, which is exactly what you and he just said about Pyrovores when considering Lictors. In fact, I'm pretty sure I just said the opposite, when I pointed out there is ample elite slots to go around.
   
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You are caring way to much about this, we all know we have enough slots, no one cares about "lack of slots" in 8th. At this point i said what i wanted too, i dont feel Lictors are worth taking for any reason atm. Maybe i the future i might, but currently i see no reason.

PS you literallt said "I think Lictors are going to quite good now, thats all" so yeah you kinda did.

Ok i lied, there is always the Rule of Cool!

I have a Behemoth Rule of Cool army, that is all DSing (well 1/2 my army) with loads of walking Hgants and melee Fex's and 3 Lictors in a Brigade. its fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 07:10:40


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
You are caring way to much about this, we all know we have enough slots, no one cares about "lack of slots" in 8th. At this point i said what i wanted too, i dont feel Lictors are worth taking for any reason atm. Maybe i the future i might, but currently i see no reason.

Ok i lied, there is always the Rule of Cool!

I have a Behemoth Rule of Cool army, that is all DSing (well 1/2 my army) with loads of walking Hgants and melee Fex's and 3 Lictors in a Brigade. its fun.

I'm caring way too much about this? All I said is that I like the look of Lictor's coming up, you're the one who seemed to take issue with that? You're welcome to feel however you like about any unit, it does not bother me, however the logic that was just given that you "completely agreed" with, was that they can't be justified in the slot when we have Pyrovores, which I politely disagreed with and explained why. You're not making a lot of sense here.
   
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Yeah we are done. If others want to chime in they can, but i said what i needed to.


On a different note, i was thinking more about Tyrant Guard, im surprise they didnt get a change. But with Swardlord being cheaper, i might just field Guard for more wounds for him, being 361pts for them compare to 410pts. Seems a bit more reasonable. 9 more wounds to keep him alive.

Tho i really wish they went down by a bit.

Most likely will try it out at least. IDK if i like it still.

Edit @FireAmongGators: b.c i dont want to clutter up the forum with this back and forth, Please stop, move on, we know you think they are good and thats your opinion and i'm ok with that. Im done talking about it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 07:31:53


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
PS you literallt said "I think Lictors are going to quite good now, thats all" so yeah you kinda did.

That just means... that I think they are going to be quite good, and I thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion? Nothing at all about saying that Pyrovores, or Hive Guard, or anything else in the Elite slot are not also going to be playable? Like, it says right there that this is all I'm saying, why are you trying to turn it into something else entirely? edit, nevermind I see you're done. Thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 07:36:27


 
   
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Kraken pyrovores are almost a must take now, just from raw stats they are worth it.

12 T5 wounds with a 16"-21" (usually 19-20) threat range that are packing 3 heavy flamers (which completely destroy scout units that cost similar points).

If your opponent goes first they are an excellent screening unit as elite chargers don't wanna touch them.

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I assume that not many people will play pyrovores anyway, since the models are super expensive and not very good.
Also I don't think you need them, if you do not want to run a brigade. They still die too easily and do not solve problems the tyranids have.
   
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 Astmeister wrote:
I assume that not many people will play pyrovores anyway, since the models are super expensive and not very good.
Also I don't think you need them, if you do not want to run a brigade. They still die too easily and do not solve problems the tyranids have.


There is a really good conversion from Hive Guard box, i'll see if i cant find it. Looks good and is plastic for 3 models 1 box. Wasnt hard to do either.

If i remeber, you needed HVC or STC sacs (6 of them total) and that was the only thing outside of the kit you needed.

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I think I saw that one here in the forum. My hope is still that they will do a dual box with 3 Pyrovores/Biovores in the near future.
I am pretty sure there is a high probability for this combination.
   
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 First Among Gators wrote:

Like, it says right there that this is all I'm saying, why are you trying to turn it into something else entirely?

Ah. Your first mistake was expecting any sort of rational discourse from Amish. This quote here basically sums up every single interaction I've ever seen from the guy when he disagrees with someone. Don't worry about it, it's just what he does.

I personally think Lictors are still pretty bad however.

 Badablack wrote:
Personally I can’t justify Lictors as a cheap elite filler with the updated Pyrovore in the same slot. 75 points gets you a durable unit that will tear apart hordes. Put them in front of a melee blob like boyz or genestealers and they’ll decimate it with overwatch then take out 5 more with acid and explosions. Double shoot them at obnoxious planes. Their only drawback is a terrible model.

Astmeister wrote:I assume that not many people will play pyrovores anyway, since the models are super expensive and not very good.
Also I don't think you need them, if you do not want to run a brigade. They still die too easily and do not solve problems the tyranids have.

I listened to CT this week, and Geoff Robinson (InControl) believes they are still really bad, to the point that he publicly apologised to anyone who buys into the hype and ends up wasting money on them just to find out how bad they still are.


I think my opinion lies somewhere between both extremes. They are far from an auto-take, but as far as I can tell they are also far from terrible, they seem like a good use of points for what they do now. Similar to Noise Marines, just looking at the gun profile and wound profile isn't enough and I fear that's what InControl may have done, the rules and interactions really give it that extra edge. Still, they are nowhere near as good enough to be considered a must take, cant even look at other elites, that is just overblown hype.
.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/23 11:35:36


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Amishprn86 wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
I didn't say they were 30 pts... and there is more measure to a unit than whether it can solo kill a character in a 1v1 in a single turn. Rippers are the same price and I've never had them kill anything at all. Lictors move around fast and hard, deepstrike, score well, can do damage and are above all are extremely cheap. Deathleaper is cool too for what he adds, but they are different units.


Rippers also are harder to LoS see, has a total of 9 wounds and are troops, you are force to take troops for CP, so filling in 1-2 extra Rippers is never a problem. Brigades are easy for us and if you want them for Brigades, then that is 100% fine IMO. Especially if you already are taking Hiveguard unit and another elite. with 1 Fleet.

The 30 vs 34pts was for everyone not you. I've seen many say "sweet they are 30pts" and forget to add in the weapons.


Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee (and in case of mortar teams, it can also do some numbers), which means that it foces your opponent to deploy and move in a certain way. Imposing restrictions on your opponent for 34 points is definitely a good use of points. The fact that it can eat chars for CP or fall back shoot and charge with a 9" move stat is just a bonus.

Eihnlazer wrote:Kraken pyrovores are almost a must take now, just from raw stats they are worth it.

12 T5 wounds with a 16"-21" (usually 19-20) threat range that are packing 3 heavy flamers (which completely destroy scout units that cost similar points).

If your opponent goes first they are an excellent screening unit as elite chargers don't wanna touch them.


I think that they are T4. At T5 they would be broken.

Astmeister wrote:I assume that not many people will play pyrovores anyway, since the models are super expensive and not very good.
Also I don't think you need them, if you do not want to run a brigade. They still die too easily and do not solve problems the tyranids have.


25 points for T4 4+ 4W is NOT easy to kill. Maybe that they don't fall into the typical tyranid playstyle, but they are definitely not easy to kill.
Models though are really really bad...
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.

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They only re-roll for the turn that you had DS.

Pyrovore are S5 T4, a lot of players just remember it backwards and thats understandable.

About them dying easy, you can hide single models really easily, being in cover makes you a 3+ save then.

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tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


My calculation says that they have a 59.5% chance of charging after deep strike.
Anyway Lictors might be good against IG, but there they have the problem that IG has massive screens everywhere. You will not be able to charge a mortar team so easily I'm afraid.

I also do not think that pyrovores are a must take now. But at least they are playable and can be very cheap brigade enablers.
   
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 Astmeister wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


My calculation says that they have a 59.5% chance of charging after deep strike.
Anyway Lictors might be good against IG, but there they have the problem that IG has massive screens everywhere. You will not be able to charge a mortar team so easily I'm afraid.

I also do not think that pyrovores are a must take now. But at least they are playable and can be very cheap brigade enablers.


Does he have something that pre-codex orks didn't have? Reroll both dices was 47.8% for orks in index. Bit more if you are burning CP to reroll just one dice rather than whole roll.

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Orks can only re-roll 1 dice, a DSing Lictor can re-roll both

A 9" charge without any re-roll is 27.78%

3+6=9
4+5=9
5+4=9
6+3=9
4+6=10
5+5=10
6+4=10
5+6=11
6+5=11
6+6=12
10 of 36

PS re-rolling Both dice is a 48% chance, re-rolling the lowest averge dice roll is 50-55%, idk how to do that math very well when im this tired.

Edit: Add math

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 10:39:23


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
Orks can only re-roll 1 dice, a DSing Lictor can re-roll both


Orks pre-codex could reroll both.

Orks post-codex can roll all or either at their discression(slight boost from index). There is some debate could orks choose to reroll one dice with CP reroll and then the other by their inate ability(has to be this way though due to CP reroll rule so def can't use first inate ability and then CP reroll) (and as to why anybody would do this as you are committing 1 CP however...It does increase odds slightly so if it's hyper critical(last time I played Tau certainly was that critical but then again rolling 1 and 2 in the first roll made that idea bad anyway nevermind rather rules-lawyery attempt in casual tournament...) it could be worth it to commit 1CP to give even slight increase on odds)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 10:56:14


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tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.

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5265 pts
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tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.


Why would they?
What do tyranids have that requires screening your mortars/traktors/devastators/hyve guards ?
I don't rembember seeing raveners, gargolyes or tyrannocites in lists. Sometimes trygons, but they are there for bigger targets.

Usually against nids you don't need to screen in the back, you have to put all your screens in front to cover for the horma/stealer rush.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.


Why would they?
What do tyranids have that requires screening your mortars/traktors/devastators/hyve guards ?
I don't rembember seeing raveners, gargolyes or tyrannocites in lists. Sometimes trygons, but they are there for bigger targets.

Usually against nids you don't need to screen in the back, you have to put all your screens in front to cover for the horma/stealer rush.


Serious? Genestealers and Flyrants

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 11:57:22


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Spoletta wrote:
Spoiler:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.


Why would they?
What do tyranids have that requires screening your mortars/traktors/devastators/hyve guards ?
I don't rembember seeing raveners, gargolyes or tyrannocites in lists. Sometimes trygons, but they are there for bigger targets.

Usually against nids you don't need to screen in the back, you have to put all your screens in front to cover for the horma/stealer rush.


There are also Hive Crones and Harpys. I played crones sometimes and they can at least T1 charge backline Artillery.
   
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They can be used like Rippers some games, or used as a hitsquad others, or just to tie up different units here and there as their fluff suggests, or anything in between. Versatility is a big plus for me and they are nice and fast and an unappealing target to shoot at if played well.
   
 
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