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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Amishprn86 wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.


Why would they?
What do tyranids have that requires screening your mortars/traktors/devastators/hyve guards ?
I don't rembember seeing raveners, gargolyes or tyrannocites in lists. Sometimes trygons, but they are there for bigger targets.

Usually against nids you don't need to screen in the back, you have to put all your screens in front to cover for the horma/stealer rush.


Serious? Genestealers and Flyrants


Astmeister wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Spoiler:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lictors natively reroll charges, that is really important. It's a 34 point model which has good chances to put stuff in melee


Tad under 50%. Need 2 of them for 3/4 chance to get stuff in melee. Top of that 1 of them isn't that scary that it's going to force enemy to do anything more than deploy standard chaff that are more there to work as speed bumb against kraken stealers anyway.


The actual chances are not important as long as they are high enough. 48% is enough that your opponent has to screen his backline objectives. For 34 points it's a big win.


People screen them anyway but not due to lictors. So idea of them affecting deployment is pretty much irrelevant.


Why would they?
What do tyranids have that requires screening your mortars/traktors/devastators/hyve guards ?
I don't rembember seeing raveners, gargolyes or tyrannocites in lists. Sometimes trygons, but they are there for bigger targets.

Usually against nids you don't need to screen in the back, you have to put all your screens in front to cover for the horma/stealer rush.


There are also Hive Crones and Harpys. I played crones sometimes and they can at least T1 charge backline Artillery.


Those are completely different. Being able to charge something from the front with a fast flying unit and being able to charge from a deepstriking unit, are 2 different things and require different set ups for the screens.

Genestealers apply only in case you play the GSC ones, i was talking about tyranids.
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

While we can discuss the lictor I like the new deathleaper with cheaper cost. Since it has the character rule he is hard to shoot of objects from afar. He is slightly cheaper now. 60 points.

That the regular venom cannon jumped down to 12 points is nice. Warriors with essentially heavy bolters and auto cannons are quite nice. The prime is also cheaper.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm sure that someone will competitively explore a Leviathan full warrior list now.

Leviathan is a must or they will melt to D3 weapons.
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

I have painted mine Leviatan and has stuck to it. D3 damage weapons and even 2 damage weapons are not bad. Often they need 2 hits to kill, even with out leviathan 6+++. With it it can be funn. The 6+++ is better on gaunts. ^_^

The leviathan stratagem is cool if you can unlock it. Malanthropes or gargaoyles where my go to. Now perhaps one of the flyers can do.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean flat 3 damage weapons, like Cawl's wrath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the stratagem you can consider shrikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 13:29:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






You can take double battalion + fortification detachment for a decent levi list.


2 malanthropes, 2 primes

3 min squad warriors, 3 max squad warriors

6 pyrovores

3 sporocysts




Everything should be synapsed and buffed almost all the time and its got tons of firepower.


Raw stats are: 196 wounds with 6+++, 12 Venom cannons, 6 heavy flamers, 9 spore mines per turn, 51 Heavy bolters. No models with 1 wound except for spawned mines. In close combat you get 154 bonesword attacks hitting on 2's and some other stuff.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 16:14:36


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Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

I am just browsing blood of kittens 2018 summary:

-1 to hit “Chapter Tactics” type rules across all codexes is now +1 cover

Does this mean fexes, venomthropes and malantrope?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

I believe that was a rumored change that didn't actually pan out- though I could have just missed it.
   
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Augusta GA

Making -1 to hit just a bonus to cover saves would definitely reduce the stacking nonsense Eldar like to pull with flyers. Good luck getting a cover save with those things.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yeah they didn't go through with that change, even though it would have been far healthier for the game as a whole.

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Yeah, because completely destroying Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies would have been excellent for the game.

If you want Alaitoc nerfed, say Alaitoc needs to be nerfed. Almost every example of -1 instances are fine outside of that.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






It wouldn't destroy those at all.

Raven guard and Alpha legion would actually be getting a buff from this change.

If they go second, all their 3+ armor is now 1+ armor (cover strat) which helps them more than the -1 to hit did. If they went first they might have been too close to get the -1 anyway.

Stygies gets shroudspsalm so +2 to saves is pretty pimp as well since they are charging up as well.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:

Raven guard and Alpha legion would actually be getting a buff from this change.

If they go second, all their 3+ armor is now 1+ armor (cover strat) which helps them more than the -1 to hit did.

Or, if they went second, they'd have 2+ armor and -1 to hit, something way stronger off the bat, and not invalidated by ignores cover or high AP either. And that's assuming it did even work like this (the rumor just said they would be counting as in cover, so these wouldn't even stack).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
If they went first they might have been too close to get the -1 anyway.

Then they wouldn't be benefiting from the cover save either, so that's pretty irrelevant here.


 Eihnlazer wrote:
Stygies gets shroudspsalm so +2 to saves is pretty pimp as well since they are charging up as well.

By the logic you're giving, these changes Alaitoc would be even stronger since they are getting stackable buffs to their armour saves. But that's not how this works. You cannot frame this as anything other than a nerf, let's not pretend otherwise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 02:17:27


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

As a current player of 2nd ed as well as 8th I am very used to seeing -2, -3, -4 to even -6 modifiers on units.

We just mathed it out. It is far better to have dice miss up front even with rerolls.

Rather than hitting, rerolls, rolls to wound and a much improved saving throw round. It almost triples the time for each volley of shots in the game.

With an overload of dice as is, we don't need extra dice rolling, on the contrary.

I am for even more negative modifiers to hit. My Malanthrope list has the additional -1 on my tyrant, my lictors up front and my harpy to slow things up.

If the negatives to hit are a problem they could go any number of things. Make close/short range a plus to hit or even auto hit ....since that is a thing already.

Heck I would even get rid of weapon types and just have point blank range that auto hit, short range that gives +1 and long range to all weapons and make all weapons the same. Some like pistols/flamers would have a nice Point blank range. Some like lascannons and heavy bolters would have zero or almost none. I think most pistols had +2 to hit for short range in 2nd ed and that is why you pulled out your Marines bolt pistol instead of using your bolter to kill those fast moving -3 to hit elder jetbikes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 04:16:09


 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





What's up with the hate on the Pyrovore model? The only reason GW has sold a single Pyrovore since it came out is that people proxied them as Biovores. That's how ugly Biovores are.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




1) The model IMHO looks really bad, but that's up to personal opinions.

2) It's in finecast.

3) Has an atrocious cost to point ratio.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In any case i think you can easily make those with a warrior base. Model them with lower rending claws, and use it as hands to put it on 4 legs. Put a barbed strangler on the upper limbs, you can do it the simple way and have an end result which is a small Tfex, or you model the limbs turned around over the back and it is more similar to the standard pyrovore. Use a termagant or hormagant for the head.
This way i finally find a use for all those stranglers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 07:03:34


 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Spoletta wrote:

In any case i think you can easily make those with a warrior base. Model them with lower rending claws, and use it as hands to put it on 4 legs. Put a barbed strangler on the upper limbs, you can do it the simple way and have an end result which is a small Tfex, or you model the limbs turned around over the back and it is more similar to the standard pyrovore. Use a termagant or hormagant for the head.
This way i finally find a use for all those stranglers.

pretty good advice here, it's what I'll be doing for mine








Anyway, just listened to the most recent Chapter Tactics. InControl said (and I'm paraphrasing) that LVO terrain really benefits Tyranids and that they should do well in the hands of a good player, and was asked why he thinks Tyranid players didn't do well last year. He responded that he thinks in general, Tyranid players are generally pretty bad players, who do try, but most only succeed at being fun opponents to play against. With only a few exceptions, generally when top players of other races pick them up, in his opinion. I've actually heard him say it before in the past, so it wasn't just a quick answer or anything.

How do you guys feel about that? I don't know where I sit on that just yet myself, but part of me definitely feels like I have kinda experienced what he's talking about, it might just be my confirmation bias but this is the only race I really see where there's CONSTANTLY people arguing in favor of bad units, like Mawlocs, Tervigons, Haruspexes, etc, and just fundamentally misunderstanding the units in their logic.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




The point to cost on a pyrovore is truly ridiculous. They cost £22.50 on the GW and are 25 points. That’s almost £1 a point! Like yeah, they’re really goood now but dang, that’s a lotta money
   
Made in gb
Calm Celestian





England

It might be that the sort of folks who play Nids are doing so more for the fluff and models than competitiveness.

I have known a number of people pick up armies based purely on their competitiveness, even if they dislike the models and care nothing for the armies background.

OTOH I recently heard somebody state that Daughters of Khaine had a 76% win rate because of the type of player they attract, not necessarily the power level of the army. I have no idea of how true that is. Or if they were serious. My point being that some comments can muddy the waters.

What I do know, from years of playing against marine players is that Tyranids are still perceived as...an NPC army, if you will. We are 'supposed' to get shot up on the approach and then beaten in melee combat.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Please don’t necro to ask if there’s been any news.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Souleater wrote:
It might be that the sort of folks who play Nids are doing so more for the fluff and models than competitiveness.

I have known a number of people pick up armies based purely on their competitiveness, even if they dislike the models and care nothing for the armies background.

OTOH I recently heard somebody state that Daughters of Khaine had a 76% win rate because of the type of player they attract, not necessarily the power level of the army. I have no idea of how true that is. Or if they were serious. My point being that some comments can muddy the waters.

What I do know, from years of playing against marine players is that Tyranids are still perceived as...an NPC army, if you will. We are 'supposed' to get shot up on the approach and then beaten in melee combat.


For me, i also buy armies on looks and playstyles, my problem is, i play 2-5x a week, and been playing whfb and 40k for many years. I get board with "fun" models very fast b.c they dont feel good to play. Its all about how the model feels to play with, if its frustrating, i'll just put it on the self and wait for a new edition, ive done this many times.For new players, or players that play once a month, i fully understand playing your favorite models, and you should have fun as much as you can. I just get to play enough and long enough and have enough models/points where i can test/play every model and then pick the ones that feel right to me, most the time its closer to meta lists, just b.c most veterans players move towards the efficient units, we have been playing long enough to know what works and what does for the most part.

I do play AOS as well, and yes, DoK are really strong, the big problem tho is LoN are equally as strong, and they are fundamentally 2 different types of armies, most other armies that are top tier (Deepkin, Beastclaws, etc..) need to play 2 completely different play styles to deal with each, and most armies cant do that, so you either deal with 1 or the other. LoN is more popular as well, 300 DoK to 600 LoN players int he past many tournaments. So most players are building to counter LoN and not DoK.

For an example; Deepkin are very good against LoN, but not as good against DoK. I personally play Deepkin and Moonkclan, tho i really want to play Beastmen, as i played them from 5th till 8th (stopped at 8th) and sold them off, looking to get back into them now they are playable for the 1st time in 20yrs (i lost 80% of my games with beastmen, they always where really bad)


EDIT: Found a chart for you https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48396074_950077932047094_8386091144869576704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=4f7a6474a0ee1eb555caee87b6ab07f1&oe=5C8B6084

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 08:34:08


15k+
:harlequin: 4k
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

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Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Souleater wrote:
It might be that the sort of folks who play Nids are doing so more for the fluff and models than competitiveness.

I have known a number of people pick up armies based purely on their competitiveness, even if they dislike the models and care nothing for the armies background.

For what it's worth, he was referring to competitive players. Or at the very least, the players who are attending tournaments with Nids (which may not be exclusive to what you say either, just adding a bit more context).

 Souleater wrote:
OTOH I recently heard somebody state that Daughters of Khaine had a 76% win rate because of the type of player they attract, not necessarily the power level of the army. I have no idea of how true that is. Or if they were serious. My point being that some comments can muddy the waters.

What I do know, from years of playing against marine players is that Tyranids are still perceived as...an NPC army, if you will. We are 'supposed' to get shot up on the approach and then beaten in melee combat.


I can definitely see that being the case. Certain types of people in general, are more likely to be attracted or gravitate to different armies in general. This can totally affect overall performance too E.G. no matter how broken SM are, they will always have a poor win rate, because they are super popular amongst casual players. Similar thing to Orkz. And I'm sure we've all seen the similarity in personality that gets attracted to Tau, for whatever the reason. I think that while things like Ynnari are obviously extremely powerful, they are also such a finesse based army that attracts players really looking for a challenge, and this translates to better players owning the army overall. These are just some rough generalisations, no concrete rules or anything, but I can see how it can weight certain armies in a different direction than the actual competitive potential of them.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Dakka Veteran





 SHUPPET wrote:


Anyway, just listened to the most recent Chapter Tactics. InControl said (and I'm paraphrasing) that LVO terrain really benefits Tyranids and that they should do well in the hands of a good player, and was asked why he thinks Tyranid players didn't do well last year. He responded that he thinks in general, Tyranid players are generally pretty bad players, who do try, but most only succeed at being fun opponents to play against. With only a few exceptions, generally when top players of other races pick them up, in his opinion. I've actually heard him say it before in the past, so it wasn't just a quick answer or anything.

How do you guys feel about that? I don't know where I sit on that just yet myself, but part of me definitely feels like I have kinda experienced what he's talking about, it might just be my confirmation bias but this is the only race I really see where there's CONSTANTLY people arguing in favor of bad units, like Mawlocs, Tervigons, Haruspexes, etc, and just fundamentally misunderstanding the units in their logic.


I personally am a quite bad player. I did not play 40k competitively on tournaments, but I did play a lot of tournaments in 6th and 7th edition WHFB. I was already bad there, which was due to me just playing my favorite units all the time (e.g. 2 blocks of greatswords).

So personally I absolutely agree with him saying that. If I wanted to play WAAC, I would have taken another army. I just "love" my tyranids and do not want to play them super competitively. For example I always play a walking hive tyrant with HVC, just because I like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 09:09:51


 
   
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Dakka Veteran






 SHUPPET wrote:
And I'm sure we've all seen the similarity in personality that gets attracted to Tau, for whatever the reason.


LOL what is the personality that is attracted to Tau?

   
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 slave.entity wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
And I'm sure we've all seen the similarity in personality that gets attracted to Tau, for whatever the reason.


LOL what is the personality that is attracted to Tau?

Play against 10 Tau players and see if you can spot the theme.

heheh, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but generally a disproportionate amount of peoples "worst stories" involve personality clashes with Tau players. There's plenty of cool ones out there so don't take it as an insult, but for some reason the race seems to attract a disproportionate amount of... less cool ones.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Eihnlazer wrote:
You can take double battalion + fortification detachment for a decent levi list.


2 malanthropes, 2 primes

3 min squad warriors, 3 max squad warriors

6 pyrovores

3 sporocyst


Everything should be synapsed and buffed almost all the time and its got tons of firepower.


Raw stats are: 196 wounds with 6+++, 12 Venom cannons, 6 heavy flamers, 9 spore mines per turn, 51 Heavy bolters. No models with 1 wound except for spawned mines. In close combat you get 154 bonesword attacks hitting on 2's and some other stuff.


I have somethig like this in the pipeline for Friday but the French army builder app I am usinG says post CA, venom canons are 12 points. I thought I heard they had dropped to 8 ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 10:09:46


 
   
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Augusta GA

No they dropped BY 8 points from 20 to 12.
   
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Krazy Grot Kutta Driva






What would you use in a Brigade as FA?
   
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Dakka Veteran






 SHUPPET wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
And I'm sure we've all seen the similarity in personality that gets attracted to Tau, for whatever the reason.


LOL what is the personality that is attracted to Tau?

Play against 10 Tau players and see if you can spot the theme.

heheh, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but generally a disproportionate amount of peoples "worst stories" involve personality clashes with Tau players. There's plenty of cool ones out there so don't take it as an insult, but for some reason the race seems to attract a disproportionate amount of... less cool ones.


In my (limited) experience playing against Tau players, I find that they tend to be more a little more casual in playstyle, kind of like marine players. All of the nid players I've met seem more competitive in general, even if it's just spamming hive guard. The Tau players I've gone up against seemed to just be really into the cool mechs and hover tanks rather than necessarily having a strong list. Chaos is a mixed bag. Same with IG. The DE/CWE I've met are generally a little more tryhard. The Necron players I've met also tend to be more competitive-minded though I can also tell that they were kind of new to the game because they chose Necrons.

   
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 slave.entity wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
And I'm sure we've all seen the similarity in personality that gets attracted to Tau, for whatever the reason.


LOL what is the personality that is attracted to Tau?

Play against 10 Tau players and see if you can spot the theme.

heheh, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but generally a disproportionate amount of peoples "worst stories" involve personality clashes with Tau players. There's plenty of cool ones out there so don't take it as an insult, but for some reason the race seems to attract a disproportionate amount of... less cool ones.


In my (limited) experience playing against Tau players, I find that they tend to be more a little more casual in playstyle, kind of like marine players. All of the nid players I've met seem more competitive in general, even if it's just spamming hive guard. The Tau players I've gone up against seemed to just be really into the cool mechs and hover tanks rather than necessarily having a strong list. Chaos is a mixed bag. Same with IG. The DE/CWE I've met are generally a little more tryhard. The Necron players I've met also tend to be more competitive-minded though I can also tell that they were kind of new to the game because they chose Necrons.


Yeah, it's a broad generalisation and there is no hard rule for anything. It's just a common experience in the hobby that Tau players have more poor sportsmans than other races (for whatever the reason may be). The comments here are a pretty good example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/9hr2ys/please_tell_me_your_that_guy_stories/

Anyway this is getting kinda off topic for Tyranid tactica, I didn't mean to make this thread about the Tau community, that comment was just an offhand example in a handful of broad stereotypes. They have their flaws and we have ours.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Augusta GA

The usual FA filler for brigades is 3 Mucolid Spores, which is why they’re 30 bucks a pop on eBay.

I think I might try running the Red Terror in one slot for mine though. He’s pretty decent for 50 points, and his instant death attack is hilarious if it goes off.
   
 
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