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2019/12/24 15:50:26
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/24 15:52:13
2019/12/24 16:37:33
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
- Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
- Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
- Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
- Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/12/24 16:41:32
2019/12/24 16:48:42
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
How are other people interpreting the Bio-metallic Cysts fleet trait? I can't look at it any other way than just stock scything talons being affected. Monstrous/massive scything talons and grasping talons are out, but it does seem like the typical GW oversight to miss defining other weapons in the same type that they did intend to receive the effect.
2019/12/24 17:51:15
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
To be honest, it could go either way. Untill it gets clairified, I'd just look at it in the most conservative way. And only apply it to the little guys.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2019/12/24 18:19:26
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
True even without Genestealers. With Genestealers, your opponent is now scared of going second a lot more now too considering how much first turn GS can disrupt the average SM list.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
Adding C4E detachment has a ton of benefits in every single match up and I wouldn’t play infantry based Nids without it even if there was no TFC. The option to spend 3 CP to counter that is a boon from the jump, not a burden, but again, it’s not even required here in the first place, it’s just another OPTION you can add if feel nervous about including one of the strongest units in the dex.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
...
You aren’t charging into a midfield overwatch castle turn 1, you’re wrapping up a unit midfield or your opponent conceded the board. On top of that, as if you wouldn’t include a Lictor? How is this a weakness of Genestealers lol?
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
I did not say anything about doing this, nor would I recommend it, and I’ve advised against it in the past. A unit of Genestealers is good because it’s a cheap unit that covers so many bases and does more than it’s share of points a lot of times and if it fails, only cost around 200 pts.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
What awful advice. It’s neither a one trick pony unit, nor does this logic of Tyranids win rate mean that one specific unit is bad, this same logic could be used to say not to play any unit in the dex. Nor does the win rate even mean that the army is bad or that we should not try to use any sort of strategy. Nor is that winrate reflective of new rules. Your defeatist attitude is why you are doing poorly. Also, this entire sentence runs contrary to your entire point that the reason we shouldn’t run GS is because of the SM matchup - if what you say is true and we have no hope vs Marines in general, why would we not take a unit that is one of our dexes best in almost every single other match up and also in the SM match up anyway in 50% of games, or more if you take a GSC ally? The only delusion here is thinking made up things like Stealers are a one trick pony or they are the reason for Tyranids win rate or that they are unplayable in this meta.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/24 18:21:57
2019/12/24 18:24:30
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
- Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
- Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
- Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
- Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
You can put the GS in the infestation nodes right on edge of depoyment and pop them T2 with lictor. Or better yet put lictor on board with GS t1, take kraken, advance him. Cast onslaught on him so he can charge. GS already have advance and charge, swarmy there for extra movement if needed. Or if no lictor send in Swarmlord first with catalyst and then after he gets in use Hunters Drive for 1 CP to bolster the charge roll for the Genestealers.
10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
True even without Genestealers. With Genestealers, your opponent is now scared of going second a lot more now too considering how much first turn GS can disrupt the average SM list.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
Adding C4E detachment has a ton of benefits in every single match up and I wouldn’t play infantry based Nids without it even if there was no TFC. The option to spend 3 CP to counter that is a boon from the jump, not a burden, but again, it’s not even required here in the first place, it’s just another OPTION you can add if feel nervous about including one of the strongest units in the dex.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
...
You aren’t charging into a midfield overwatch castle turn 1, you’re wrapping up a unit midfield or your opponent conceded the board. On top of that, as if you wouldn’t include a Lictor? How is this a weakness of Genestealers lol?
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
I did not say anything about doing this, nor would I recommend it, and I’ve advised against it in the past. A unit of Genestealers is good because it’s a cheap unit that covers so many bases and does more than it’s share of points a lot of times and if it fails, only cost around 200 pts.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
What awful advice. It’s neither a one trick pony unit, nor does this logic of Tyranids win rate mean that one specific unit is bad, this same logic could be used to say not to play any unit in the dex. Nor does the win rate even mean that the army is bad or that we should not try to use any sort of strategy. Nor is that winrate reflective of new rules. Your defeatist attitude is why you are doing poorly. Also, this entire sentence runs contrary to your entire point that the reason we shouldn’t run GS is because of the SM matchup - if what you say is true and we have no hope vs Marines in general, why would we not take a unit that is one of our dexes best in almost every single other match up and also in the SM match up anyway in 50% of games, or more if you take a GSC ally? The only delusion here is thinking made up things like Stealers are a one trick pony or they are the reason for Tyranids win rate or that they are unplayable in this meta.
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
You can put the GS in the infestation nodes right on edge of depoyment and pop them T2 with lictor. Or better yet put lictor on board with GS t1, take kraken, advance him. Cast onslaught on him so he can charge. GS already have advance and charge, swarmy there for extra movement if needed. Or if no lictor send in Swarmlord first with catalyst and then after he gets in use Hunters Drive for 1 CP to bolster the charge roll for the Genestealers.
You can't and the latter (Swarmlord slingshotting himself T1 into the enemy deployment what a fething bad idea) doesn't prevent any overwatch which was the reason of half the discussion above.
"You cannot use this Stratagem to affect a unit of
reinforcements being set up by the Genestealer’s
Infestation ability, or that are added to your army due to
a unit’s ability.’"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/24 18:38:04
2019/12/24 19:31:15
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
godardc wrote: Yes he was playing Chronos but didn't explain why he took the broodlord though. He told they the -1 to be wounded stratagem and -1 to be hit together were quite strong
My best guess is to provide a counter-assault option. Broodlords still hit fairly hard while being small enough to hide out of sight with character protection. Plus they offer an extra deny attempt and can store extra powers for the Neurothrope to access if needed with the new stratagem.
The one thing I'd be a bit concerned with running that list is how it has so little redundancy... It looks like it would be relatively easy to pick off the supporting elements and shut down the various tricks the list has. On the other hand, the Warriors and Exocrines should be very efficient under Kronos, so maybe they can pull through regardless.
Still, I'd love to give that list a go and see how it performs. I already have seen Exocrines tear up Iron Hands in a shoot-out so it looks promising if nothing else. I need to do an inventory of my Warriors...
2019/12/24 19:33:10
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
Yes, Termagants are our cheapest PPM on infantry. Them getting shot is better for us point for point than any other units in our dex, that’s their role. That doesn’t mean we take a list of pure Termagants. You need teeth, speed and board control. A strong list has more options than just Termagants.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
“don’t take a competitive option because it’s necessary!” Great argument.
The 3CP Vect stratagem is amazing addition to any army. To disagree with this is just completely antithetical to how this game works and is played at any sort of level. Don’t take it if you don’t want but Genestealers are great and this is an amazing option to cover the perceived counter that apparently completely drives them out of the meta.
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
...
Hi, I’m 8th edition. Let me introduce you to my friend the bolt gun!
Basically every army in the game needs to move into the field in 8th or lose. Even competitive Tau is pushing their entire army into the middle of the field nowadays. Everything you say strikes me as heavy theorycraft from someone who has spent too munch time comparing data sheets and too little time actually playing at a decent level, but this is just the cherry on top. If they can’t deploy their Infiltrators or Warsuits anywhere near your army for FEAR of the unit of Stealers, than they’ve already made their points back in that match up before ever rolling a dice.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. Especially from someone who recommended Behemoth Genestealers who are literally just 450 pts for a worse Acolyte squad. Kraken Stealers have a different method of approach, that isn’t blocked by DA blockers or intercept stratagem or even Vect if you play smart. Acolytes do not invalidate Kraken stealers at all, if they make anything redundant it’s your suggestion of Behemoth Stealers.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
Its incredible that you can say so much and still be so consistently wrong. But above all, none of what you said is a fact. It’s your opinion, and it’s a sketchy one at best that got you so heavily downvoted last time you posted it on Reddit that you had to delete the comments to save karma, so let’s not mislabel opinions as facts shall we.
2019/12/24 20:00:49
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
Yes, Termagants are our cheapest PPM on infantry. Them getting shot is better for us point for point than any other units in our dex, that’s their role. That doesn’t mean we take a list of pure Termagants. You need teeth, speed and board control. A strong list has more options than just Termagants.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
“don’t take a competitive option because it’s necessary!” Great argument.
The 3CP Vect stratagem is amazing addition to any army. To disagree with this is just completely antithetical to how this game works and is played at any sort of level. Don’t take it if you don’t want but Genestealers are great and this is an amazing option to cover the perceived counter that apparently completely drives them out of the meta.
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
...
Hi, I’m 8th edition. Let me introduce you to my friend the bolt gun!
Basically every army in the game needs to move into the field in 8th or lose. Even competitive Tau is pushing their entire army into the middle of the field nowadays. Everything you say strikes me as heavy theorycraft from someone who has spent too munch time comparing data sheets and too little time actually playing at a decent level, but this is just the cherry on top. If they can’t deploy their Infiltrators or Warsuits anywhere near your army for FEAR of the unit of Stealers, than they’ve already made their points back in that match up before ever rolling a dice.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. Especially from someone who recommended Behemoth Genestealers who are literally just 450 pts for a worse Acolyte squad. Kraken Stealers have a different method of approach, that isn’t blocked by DA blockers or intercept stratagem or even Vect if you play smart. Acolytes do not invalidate Kraken stealers at all, if they make anything redundant it’s your suggestion of Behemoth Stealers.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
Its incredible that you can say so much and still be so consistently wrong. But above all, none of what you said is a fact. It’s your opinion, and it’s a sketchy one at best that got you so heavily downvoted last time you posted it on Reddit that you had to delete the comments to save karma, so let’s not mislabel opinions as facts shall we.
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
2) It seems you can't read what I said, too bad you didn't understand anything.
3) Hello I am a 2019 Space Marine player. I got the best and most mobility/deployment options of ANY CODEX and unless you make use of broken rules like shield drones (nice to mention T'au without even telling of the ONLY WAY to play them, aka 40+ drones to have your Riptides go midfield) you're gonna get your ass fethed up by Centurions/Invictors which are 2 times more efficient on any damage/tankyness basis. I'd gladly trade (in case of Centurions it isn't even happening, you're gonna get fethed by overwatch and returning fire) my units to outright delete all your threat without you being capable of doing anything worthy of a counter. Welcome to 8.5 Edition my friend!
4) I never recommended Behemoth Genestealers (again another sign that you CAN'T READ AT ALL): I just said that Behemoth *something* is the way, not that you should be playing horrible Behemoth Genestealers that are just a pathetic version of Acolytes; that doesn't change the fact that Kraken stealers are nowadays bad and you should feel bad for mentioning them in the new competitive scenario.
2019/12/24 20:33:05
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
Eh, the two are about the same as far as cannon fodder and chaff clearing are concerned. Durability-wise it is a wash. Termagants gained the ability to have a 6++ from Blood of Baal and neither unit are likely to get their armor saves in the current meta (at best Neophytes will get a 6+ while in cover, at which point the invul is the same). Both are T3 so both are being wounded at the same rate, both have access to FNP conditionally, and both have access to moral immunity so they can afford to take larger units if desired.
For shooting, I'd actually put Termagant shooting as slightly better than Neophyte shooting for the purposes of anti-infantry. Termagants get S4 on 2/3rds of their main guns while Neophytes are stuck with S3 (barring shotguns at 6'') which makes a huge difference against MEQ troops. Devourers are also much nastier than the special/heavy anti-infantry options available to Neophytes by virtue of being able to be taken in quantities for sheer volume of fire. The main advantage Neophytes have in shooting is that they can take special and heavy weapons to diversify their role somewhat, as well as deep strike innately via Cult Ambush (reserve "slots" permitting).
I do agree Neophytes have better force multipliers overall, but Termagants aren't without those of their own. Scorch Bugs are quite good (+1 to wound, so wounding Marines on a 3+) and the built-in brood bonus of rerolling 1's to wound is nice to have. Also the -1 to hit from a Venomthrope or Malanthrope is a big defensive benefit that Neophytes don't have access to and is excellent thing to have for a screening unit (see Atlan Jackals).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/12/25 00:43:27
2019/12/24 23:50:58
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I agree with Kurtangle, wouldn't take Stealers in the current meta.
Gunzilla is decent, more or less unchanged post-BoB and there's Gant carpet for the masochists.
2019/12/25 05:43:39
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
You were the one saying take Termagants over Genestealers, not me. Try to keep up. What you just said is in no way an answer to my statement.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 3) Hello I am a 2019 Space Marine player. I got the best and most mobility/deployment options of ANY CODEX and unless you make use of broken rules like shield drones (nice to mention T'au without even telling of the ONLY WAY to play them, aka 40+ drones to have your Riptides go midfield) you're gonna get your ass fethed up by Centurions/Invictors which are 2 times more efficient on any damage/tankyness basis. I'd gladly trade (in case of Centurions it isn't even happening, you're gonna get fethed by overwatch and returning fire) my units to outright delete all your threat without you being capable of doing anything worthy of a counter. Welcome to 8.5 Edition my friend!
What are you even trying to say? If they move Cents and Invictors up the field you have opportunities for wraps, if they don't you can't whine about them crushing you. You can't have it both ways. Keyword Nids has like 3 ways of denying Overwatch now. You have options, you just aren't good at using them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) I never recommended Behemoth Genestealers (again another sign that you CAN'T READ AT ALL): I just said that Behemoth *something* is the way, not that you should be playing horrible Behemoth Genestealers that are just a pathetic version of Acolytes
It sure read like you were suggesting Behemoth Genestealers - if not, I have to ask what exactly were you suggesting? Do you even know? It doesn't sound like it.
KurtAngle2 wrote: that doesn't change the fact that Kraken stealers are nowadays bad and you should feel bad for mentioning them in the new competitive scenario.
You're really bad at distinguishing 'fact' from 'extremely low level opinion' but that's okay.
2019/12/25 10:39:40
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
So get this, horms can be useful now, but I wouldn't build a list around them. If you are planning on using them, i'd go Leviathan with the -2, or -1 and consolidate in any direction.
You can bring them up with a Trygon/Prime on turn 2 with a lictor for rerolling 8" charges (decent odds).
Ultimate tarpit is definitely gargs now though. You can get them stuck into combat and wrap a unit with them then make them -3 to hit in combat by the wrapped unit.
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2019/12/25 12:47:43
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
2019/12/25 19:32:07
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
grouchoben wrote: Hey everyone, I've long eyed up horde-nid as a new army option, and Hormagaunts in particular. I know, I know.
But does the new custom hive ruleset make them viable?
You can tech them to have -2AP on their attacks, which transforms the unit's role pretty drastically, or go -1ap and 6++.
So yeah, assuming you go bleeding edge with the rest of your army (Kronos hiveguards et al), could you see a list with 90 hormagaunts doing good work?
Too soon to say for sure. but for non tourney? Sure. I think you could build a "all scythes" list and have fun, just make sure to have enough Synapse to keep every one fearless....
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2019/12/26 04:03:20
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
I think this list is great too. The way a list like this plays in general is just the move MC's up under the Malanthrope bubble, cover the wings and spread around the board with fast advancing Termagants in front of Dakkafexes, while the ball of MC's advances under the the Malanthrope bubble. They will likely be in range of SOMETHING after a turn, but definitely in your opponent's face by turn 2 unless it encounters significant speedbumps, which should be ideal anyway to such a close range high volume shooting army.
Run forward and set up out front of your opponent's gunline. It's easier to play vs guys who can't threaten your Hierodule in melee. You want to be casting Horror on whatever in range could do the most damage to him. You want to end your turn with the Hierodule either beneath the Malanthrope bubble, or in combat with something that can't fall back. But not being able to lock something down doesn't mean you can't use him earlier though - Resonance Barb on the Onslaught isn't a typo, it's a really reliable cast with +1 to cast, re-roll natural 1s, so you can advance the Hierodule up in their face with flat 18", charge, kill something, maybe even fight twice, or get a flamer off if you see the opportunity, and the use Overrun stratagem to fall all the way back to the Malanthrope. If your opponent is playing a castle or doesn't have any one great target for The Horror, you can also consider the new Kraken power to make those charges go even further, as you may not be able to get any value off the Horror until like turn 3 if at all. For ease during gameplay, the rough math on Hierodule's 3D6 drop lowest is basically a regular charge +2", with a cap of 12" obviously. With re-rolls from Kraken you safely risk 9" charges or more. So just try to dance him in and out of combat until you can safely get stuck in.
The Toxicrene is included in the list because it's about the same price and similar damage at times as a Dakkafex, but is chosen instead of one because there is room for another bug under the Malanthrope umbrella (Carnifexes use their own spores and spread out a little) and if your opponent is forced to try deal with everything else first, a Toxicrene can be a punishing thing to have to deal with charging you. And if they set-up anything midfield, well, if you get a Toxicrene in range of that you can potentially charge that thing with all your bugs and use it as a lighthouse for a turn in the right circumstances. Don't see it as something you rely on, but still keep one there just for that coverage on the games where they can't safely deal with a bunch of high T -1 to hit wounds.
The list has plenty of CP, you probably want to be using both Metabolic Overdrive and Opportunistic Advance both most turns on something, even if it's just Termagants. Use the move and shoot stratagem on the Exocrine just to keep him in range of the Malanthrope without penalty. Saving CP for double fighting Hierodule and Overrun is your impact strats. A single biovore is just low investment tech, but can be used to severely limit the movement of a Knight, which is important when you're playing a Hierodule, you can block a melee Knight or at least make them go a long way and miss their change. Move and shoot him for 5+ to hit and likely drop a Spore, double shoot him if it saves your Hierodule getting charged by a Knight, that's a game altering play for just 40 points.
Against Iron Hands, or SM in general, a couple of things - if they have Eliminators with a Phobos captain, your Malanthrope goes down by their second turn without even requiring LoS - look at terrain and try to deploy and advance in a way that will force them to sit somewhere that your Hierodule will be able to reach out and touch. If not, consider picking up the Kraken relic on him, maybe using your Catalyst cast on him instead of the Hierodule (don't do this lightly), and remembering that while Venomthropes are infantry, the Malanthrope IS an MC for the purpose of Rapid Regeneration, and a full Eliminator set-up only has a 3/4 chance or so to kill him by turn 2 - even an extra wound or two will make those chances shrink phenomenally, and even that 1 extra shooting phase of defensive bubble can basically make all the difference. If they roll hot on the first shooting phase and leave him on like 2 wounds don't bother though obviously. But if you can use that extra turn to kill the Eliminators, 1 wound on a Malanthrope is basically full wounds since nothing else (except greed!) can touch him really. And if this happened you've basically invalidated his entire points investment on that one there. On the topic of Malanthrope greed - getting re-roll 1s army wide is good, but -1 to hit to is more important especially when a good portion of your damage is auto-hitting with flamers anyway, so only go for that when it's safe.
Iron Hands specifically, use the Lictor to counter the Overwatch when their castle is at it's strongest - probably the first time you charge with the Hierodule. Don't overthink it, take the opportunity to lower some damage while it's on the available, and remember that Kraken means that if for some reason the Lictor survives that combat till the next turn, or if they put max dice on your actual threats since you're probably bearing down hard at this point, then you can fallback to into terrain (DOESN'T have to be cover, just as long as you're on a terrain feature) and then use the stratagem to do it again. May not happen all the time but whatever it's enough to be relevant.
Vs Iron Hands, the Dakkafexes want to get in melee with AP5 maws and a Bonemace. If you can lock stuff down with a Toxicrene, or just base up multiple things, you can safely fallback and charge just to add on those Mortal Wound dice and the +1 to hit.
If they are running Repulsors just try to get a Hierodule in combat with one, fight twice, and Overrun back to safety. Do this twice and you are doing well. If they have a bunch of Flyers I dunno. Try to position the Tyrannofex so that the flyers will land in range I guess, and protect the Exocrine the most, and remember to add 1 damage to his shooting (just in general a good thing to do anyway). Chase them down on your side of the board with Hierodule flamer, and try to use your big base sizes to limit their movement. Focus less on your Malanthrope here since they will be coming to you, but again keep the Exocrine in range of it most likely and try hold the objectives with MC's, save your troops for the ones that need to be contested by ObSec.
Using a very similar list, I went undefeated in an event recently that had multiple SM lists in. My path took me through four Power Armour lists and one Knight + Ad Mech gunline. And this was pre-Blood of Baal stuff, which makes a MASSIVE difference in our favor. I have full confidence in this list to perform, if you as a general are up to it. I also think infantry Nids is still equally as good on paper, but its just a meta call at the moment because boltstorm is so common that you may just get shredded off the table in too many matchups.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/12/26 04:22:50
2019/12/26 08:33:03
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something. Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays. And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
I would love to play a full carnifex army with some kronos hive gaurd but that -1 to hit means almost nothing these days. I would loose at least 3 carnifex each turn and I could never beat that amount of kill points.
I think with 'baal' the kronos hive guard is the big winner. Take two full units with impaler and give them 'Adaptive physiology' upgrades to make them tougher (ignore -1/-2 AP or +1 extra coversave..) and cast the kronos psychic power for extra hits on a 6. That unit could also shoot twice with stratagem.
2019/12/26 09:21:16
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
shogun wrote: I think with 'baal' the kronos hive guard is the big winner. Take two full units with impaler and give them 'Adaptive physiology' upgrades to make them tougher (ignore -1/-2 AP or +1 extra coversave..) and cast the kronos psychic power for extra hits on a 6. That unit could also shoot twice with stratagem.
Kronos is another big winner for sure. But it's a different option, and struggles more to screen out a dedicated gunline these days
2019/12/26 11:24:46
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
Toxicrene does nothing first two turns and almost nothing when it actually hits the enemies front line. Tyrannofex does nothing first two turns and only start to be effective if it can stay still and shoot twice. And even then it brings no armor penetration. And owning the board means nothing if you cannot take the enemies objectives and keep losing units as a tyranid punching bag.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
Ah 'sarcasm mode' I love that one. I'am very good at that one myself. ... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline. And the also never got any ruins in the way for some reason. If that heirodule would ever hit the enemies line then that opponent got a very bad army or he or she want's it to happen or simply doesn't care. That hierodule dies first with 400+ points down the drain because of the big bull's eye on his face. Or the enemy would just trow some scouts in his face and kill it next turn. Or simply fly away with storm talons/repulsors and keep shooting. I believe thunder fire cannon can shoot twice at both tyrannofexes and slow them both down with the ' half movement and half advance' stratagem. Thats why almost each and every space marine army brings at least one.
Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst. At least the can shoot and deal psychic power mortal wounds and are much tougher to bring down with the 4+ inv save. With ' baal' stratagems the could even improve the assault range after dropping in and pack a decent punch in close combat. I also like to drop in a single magus for an extra -1 to hit psychic power. I'am not saying that hive tyrants are in a great place nowadays but they're even better than a useless hierodule.
I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
2019/12/26 11:36:11
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
Toxicrene does nothing first two turns and almost nothing when it actually hits the enemies front line. Tyrannofex does nothing first two turns and only start to be effective if it can stay still and shoot twice. And even then it brings no armor penetration. And owning the board means nothing if you cannot take the enemies objectives and keep losing units as a tyranid punching bag.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
Ah 'sarcasm mode' I love that one. I'am very good at that one myself. ... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline. And the also never got any ruins in the way for some reason. If that heirodule would ever hit the enemies line then that opponent got a very bad army or he or she want's it to happen or simply doesn't care. That hierodule dies first with 400+ points down the drain because of the big bull's eye on his face. Or the enemy would just trow some scouts in his face and kill it next turn. Or simply fly away with storm talons/repulsors and keep shooting. I believe thunder fire cannon can shoot twice at both tyrannofexes and slow them both down with the ' half movement and half advance' stratagem. Thats why almost each and every space marine army brings at least one.
Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst. At least the can shoot and deal psychic power mortal wounds and are much tougher to bring down with the 4+ inv save. With ' baal' stratagems the could even improve the assault range after dropping in and pack a decent punch in close combat. I also like to drop in a single magus for an extra -1 to hit psychic power. I'am not saying that hive tyrants are in a great place nowadays but they're even better than a useless hierodule.
I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
Yeah, Nidzilla is still a joke whilst having 1 or 2 exocrines with Dermic Symbiosis makes them better tank commanders at a 155 pts price tag (aka go for selected shooting monsters and don't bother with anything else).
The most "competitive" thing Nids have atm is imo 1x Kronos Battalion and 2x GSC Battalions (and even that got a counter in new marines but it's the best way to have a chance to win something at least).
2019/12/26 14:09:13
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. I'd repost and bold the relevant bits, but it's literally the entire part you quoted is explaining that the list is doing plenty by turn 2...
But secondly you're completely wrong anyway. Listen to the top players talk about the game. Try Art of War podcast. Almost every single guest says the same thing - they play for the long game. At higher levels of the game, all the way to turn 6 is relevant. But again, it's not like this army is doing nothing in the first turns anyway, but you ignored all that.
Your logic says Old One Eye is one of the worst units in the dex. Or that the nerf to Return to Shadows didn't matter at all. I don't think very many good players would agree with that.
shogun wrote: Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst.
Bah god that's an awful suggestion. So no first turn casting off your Flyrants, and by the end of turn 2 they've done less than a Dakkafex. No catalyst up for the first turn, and now they are down on the field only after you've already lost your first monster, making them an even bigger target. This is beyond low level, to the point that I know you've never actually tried this, you are blatantly just trying to use theoryhammer to counter my experience, as I've seen others recognise of you of in the past.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline.
.....
what the...
what part of what I said includes anything about hitting combat turn 2? No, seriously? Are you even reading what's being said? I left the part YOU quoted of mine with this response to it. Can you please highlight where it says anything about assuming I'll be guaranteed in combat with anything I want by turn 2? I've never made this assumption or even implied it - in fact I literally said the opposite earlier when discussing the Toxicrene, in another post I'm sure you didn't read. It feels like you just wanted to go on this rant.
The only thing I talked about was getting mileage off is Hierodule - it travels 18", and charges 3(-1)D6 rerollable. By turn 2, that's a reliable 45" threat range. And even then he may not get to every game, I never said it would, just that I feel Flyrants are unreliable for having impact and put too many eggs in one basket. But that's a whole lot different to someone assuming you are guaranteed run a Haruspex naked into combat by turn 2 or whatever this nonsense rant is about.
Hierodule trys to FORCE you to deploy behind the line. This is great for you. Just like what was said earlier, every army has to come into the board in 8th. Slowing that down a turn is a big win for a resilient army. Don't just name a faction - since you are saying the problem is the options in the meta right now, please show me a list that is doing well competitively right now that can deploy on the back of their board, sit there for the first two turns, and still win on scoring? Show me a list that doesn't have a ton of points invested into taking the board.
If the Hierodule goes down first it's done its job, with 4++, -1 to hit, and Catalyst cast on it, it multiplies these bonuses larger than any other models thanks to it's double size wound pool. It isn't really any worse a target than anything else in Nidzilla. He's a 400 point model. The same amount of S9 AP4 firepower (Repulsors) it takes to kill him, kills like 950 points of Dakkafexes. Against non Repulsor enemies firing S8 or S7 (Suppressors), like that number goes up significantly. Points per wound, he really isn't a poor investment at all.
shogun wrote: I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
"that thing you did successfully? Completely impossible. It will never work."
I guess you missed the part where I talked about my tournament experience with it, but that's fine. Any response I give you're just going to respond "but if you're doing well with your Tyranid list you MUST be in a casual meta", which is also fine, because it's circular logic that holds absolutely no weight. Contrary to your opinion mate, a lot of SM lists are actually quite aggressive. MAYBE Iron Hands, not SM as a whole, are the match-up that will be playing this way the most, but in my experience building like this is actually our best shot vs Iron Hands - but if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and post your better list for beating SM.
I feel like some of you have just decided balance is 100% responsible for your losses, and that's why you get so vicious when someone speaks about something else that has been working out a bit better for them. This isn't a personal attack, my success doesn't mean you're a bad player, but maybe consider trying some new things if your old traps aren't working, and looking at units closer than the datasheet - there is no substitute for in-game experience.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/12/26 14:37:53
2019/12/26 15:14:48
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
hmmm I think you're right Nitro Zeus, The best way to handle Iron hands is to move a hierodule mid field and move some others monstrous creatures behind him. I mean by god! You shoot with one exocrine and a few smites so that first turn is in the bank! Meanwhile there is no way that iron hand player can remove a hierodule with its full army or simply block it. I mean what can a few repulsors, eliminators, stormtalons do? And that second turn will be even better! Because then you got two tyrannofexes shooting so those four single primaris marines are toast! Thank god that we only see space marines because then we don't have to find out how this kind of army would do against (chaos) knights, daemons, aeldari etc..
I was sceptical at first but it is nice to see how nidzilla is going to change the meta! What a glorious day!
(You see... I can also do ' sarcasm mode'..
2019/12/26 16:12:25
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Instead of being able to respond to the argument that my post attempts to explain and convey as clearly as I am capable of, including the math behind it, the ranges, and the examples that run directly contrary to your position, this nonsense reply was all you were able to do. Your post is a textbook example of this fallacy, that has no actual bearing on any argument that I made, because that would take considerate thought beyond 'reeee he said my bugs aren't terrible'. I knew you wouldn't be able to post a better list that doesn't have any of the holes you tried to poke in mine, so you devolved it to this instead.
You could literally replace the word 'Hierodule' with your suggestion of 'Flyrant' and I could make the exact same post back to you concerning everything you've said.
shogun wrote: (You see... I can also do ' sarcasm mode'..
And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
2019/12/26 22:05:58
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Damage output: exocrine does maybe a few wounds on a big target or a dead small target, but thats it.
Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
I would like to field a nidzilla list and with the new 'Baal' rules I was thinking about this:
I love to play something like this but space marines would just take out at least 3 carnifexes a turn so it would not work. It cannot compete with knights, aeldari flyers, tau etc.. No nidzilla can.
2019/12/26 23:25:41
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Why can I hit 18" smites off a unit that has to sit behind other units and has 5" movespeed, but I can't hit with the Dakka from Carnifex and Tyrannofex with the same range guns, with 7" move, that can safely be at the front of the pack, and in some cases advance an shoot? If I can hit those Smites, why can't I charge with a Hierodule who can move 18", and safely charge 9+"?
There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer.
shogun wrote: Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
The point would be that as it stands, one of us has provided the numbers for some math (me) where I calculated that the same amount of firepower it takes to kill a Hierodule, leaves you with a single Carnifex on the table turn 2. Until you show something contrary it doesn't look very good for you. With smart target priority and using some weaker units to finish off the Fexes that survive the math, your beautifully hilarious list of Custom Hive Fleet Carnifexes + Mawlocs (lol), is left with a single Venom Cannon on the field and two Mawlocs in reserve. After weathering the same amount of firepower, mine is left with everything but the Hierodule. I wasn't expecting much thought to be put into your response, but the state of that one just says everything we need to know about where you're coming from really. Even if you go first, your entire army shooting Venom Cannons at a Iron Hands Repulsor that will never be in range in the first place, still cannot kill a single one, even completely unbuffed by any sort of stratagems or aura. Nothing about that list has an easier time vs SM, it does everything worse. You're trying to take them on in a shooting battle with units that have zero chance of winning it, and you absolutely flat out fold to Scars, assault Cents, smash captains, BA, or anything else in the meta with a melee presence because the only thing in your list even resembling a screen is a single squad of Termagants. Your list does nothing to stop him taking all the objectives midfield either, it does nothing by moving up close, and cannot move closer anyway without a hit penalty that you desperately do not need, to try take those objectives. And since you aren't taking the objectives, they CAN sit on the other side of the board without issue if they choose to. That's not a list you wrote I hope? It reads like it was written by a brand new player who has come across from MTG, and has no experience at all with how this game works beyond datasheets. That list cannot win at 40k, I couldn't think of a way to guarantee a loss easier than that. Even when we have seen Carnifex spam meet mild success at one or two events year and a half ago, they realised you needed a board presence to make it work. That list is flawed to the core and it shouldn't take much experience to recognise that.
shogun wrote: I love to play something like this but space marines would just take out at least 3 carnifexes a turn so it would not work. It cannot compete with knights, aeldari flyers, tau etc.. No nidzilla can.
Sweet. Well, my take on Nidzilla is leaps and bounds ahead of your competitively so maybe that explains why I've been able to do what your theory hammer has decreed impossible. But, I'm still waiting for the example of the list that does better than my one vs Space Marines. Doesn't have to be Nidzilla, in fact I expected it wouldn't be since that was your complaint? Please put a bit more thought into the next one
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/12/27 02:26:47
2019/12/27 08:17:37
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Why can I hit 18" smites off a unit that has to sit behind other units and has 5" movespeed, but I can't hit with the Dakka from Carnifex and Tyrannofex with the same range guns, with 7" move, that can safely be at the front of the pack, and in some cases advance an shoot? If I can hit those Smites, why can't I charge with a Hierodule who can move 18", and safely charge 9+"?
There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer.
Because the neurothropes actually do some damage and I don't even count the rest because the damage output is so low. And like I said; if the hierodule can charge first turn then the enemy wants it to do that.
shogun wrote: Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
The point would be that as it stands, one of us has provided the numbers for some math (me) where I calculated that the same amount of firepower it takes to kill a Hierodule, leaves you with a single Carnifex on the table turn 2. Until you show something contrary it doesn't look very good for you. With smart target priority and using some weaker units to finish off the Fexes that survive the math, your beautifully hilarious list of Custom Hive Fleet Carnifexes + Mawlocs (lol), is left with a single Venom Cannon on the field and two Mawlocs in reserve. After weathering the same amount of firepower, mine is left with everything but the Hierodule. I wasn't expecting much thought to be put into your response, but the state of that one just says everything we need to know about where you're coming from really. Even if you go first, your entire army shooting Venom Cannons at a Iron Hands Repulsor that will never be in range in the first place, still cannot kill a single one, even completely unbuffed by any sort of stratagems or aura. Nothing about that list has an easier time vs SM, it does everything worse. You're trying to take them on in a shooting battle with units that have zero chance of winning it, and you absolutely flat out fold to Scars, assault Cents, smash captains, BA, or anything else in the meta with a melee presence because the only thing in your list even resembling a screen is a single squad of Termagants. Your list does nothing to stop him taking all the objectives midfield either, it does nothing by moving up close, and cannot move closer anyway without a hit penalty that you desperately do not need, to try take those objectives. And since you aren't taking the objectives, they CAN sit on the other side of the board without issue if they choose to. That's not a list you wrote I hope? It reads like it was written by a brand new player who has come across from MTG, and has no experience at all with how this game works beyond datasheets. That list cannot win at 40k, I couldn't think of a way to guarantee a loss easier than that. Even when we have seen Carnifex spam meet mild success at one or two events year and a half ago, they realised you needed a board presence to make it work. That list is flawed to the core and it shouldn't take much experience to recognise that.
You just attack my fun nidzilla list but I already wrote that this list cannot win because no nidzilla can. For some reasons my 36 inch heavy venom cannons are useless against repulsors because the wouldn't be within range, and the answer to that is bringing 18 inch tyrannofexes. To use your words: 'There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer'
Meanwhile there is no math that explains why the heirodule would survive after turn 1 and how the rest of your low damage nidzilla is going to win the day after that. Let's pick a few armies from the last tournament that I went to:
Aeldari: 3 fire prisms, 2x nightspinner, 1x crimson hunter, 3x crimson hunter exarch, 3x razorwing jetfighter..., and don't forget farseer with doom.
Chaos: 3x lord discordant, chaos knight with 2 thermal cannons, 3x Hellforged contemptor 2 butcher cannons, 2x Hellforged deredeo dreadnought butcher cannon array/twin bolter
Chaos: Cerastus knight, 2x war dog moirax with lightning, 3x knight despoiler with 2x thermal cannon.
space marine: 3 repulsors, 3 stormtalon gunships, thunderfire cannon etc...
Daemons: plague bearers (lots), deep strike bloodletters with banner, tzeentch psykers, daemon prince with khorne axe and mortarion with warp time.
First turn: dead heirodule,
Second turn: 50% nidzilla army dead,
Third turn: could just as well give up.
shogun wrote: Well, my take on Nidzilla is leaps and bounds ahead of your competitively so maybe that explains why I've been able to do what your theory hammer has decreed impossible.
I don't have to make a better nidzilla list, and I don't want to because the suck. Show my some great battle reports with great victories against great (space marine) armies and I will give you the credit you deserve and shut up. But before that happens (and it won't) stop making the claim that nidzilla is going to be the next big thing' because you might make some tyranid players believe that this is true and the will be really disappointed after buying all these tyrannofexes (lol).
That's why I'am still having this discussion with you. Not to change your mind but just to protect the other tyranid players. What can I say' I'am a giver.
2019/12/27 12:22:27
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
shogun wrote: For some reasons my 36 inch heavy venom cannons are useless against repulsors because the wouldn't be within range, and the answer to that is bringing 18 inch tyrannofexes. To use your words: 'There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer'
That's because my list isn't so one dimensional forced to duke it out in a shootout from across the board with a RepEx. They don't have to worry about the middle of the board vs you, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ON IT, and they are free to just shoot you to shreds, which Space Marines will come out on top vs any army only trying to beat them at that game. So unlike your 'fun' list that you've never actually tested, which may as well be playing Yahtzee and not 40k since literally all you're doing is trying to roll better dice than the guy across the other side of the table, I'm grabbing all the objectives and moving into range to put on pressure. Nobody said anything about the two Tyrannofexes being a counter to Repulsors except you. You're putting words in my mouth because you don't understand this game on any level deeper than diceroll statistics, and addressing the arguments that have torn yours to shreds would be a losing battle.
shogun wrote: I don't have to make a better nidzilla list, and I don't want to because the suck.
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Here, let me quote myself so you can re-read:
"But, I'm still waiting for the example of the list that does better than my one vs Space Marines. Doesn't have to be Nidzilla, in fact I expected it wouldn't be since that was your complaint"
It's been multiple posts now, lets be real, you don't have a list that has a better chance vs Space Marines. You just didn't like someone saying that Nids may not be that bad anymore, because that would mean taking a deeper look at your own play.
shogun wrote: That's why I'am still having this discussion with you. Not to change your mind but just to protect the other tyranid players. What can I say' I'am a giver.
Your parroted advice for an army that I'm not even convinced you actually play, is only hurting people trying to improve their game. Luckily, it wasn't hard to dispel your misinformation because their isn't much rational thought sunk into it. You misquote me and invent arguments and rely on fallacies, while I'm just attempting to coherently explain my position. I really don't think it's written as confusingly as your posts would suggest, but I guess that's what happens when you don't take the time out to actually read what you're responding to and you aren't interested in giving an honest response to the arguments that are being made.
Anyway, this has gone on long enough. This thread is becoming the Zeus and Shogun show, so lets move on. I've given my advice in direct response to someone who asked me for it - not you. Your complaints, however blinkered they may be, have been heard by all by this point. It's time to put this to bed.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/12/27 12:46:33
10000+
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3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans
... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.