Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Worth mentioning that bare minimum Pheromone Trail is effectively a 2 CP stratagem. Unless GW has a miraculous moment of self-awareness and realized that locking something like that behind 2+ CP is absurd and erratas it to a 0 CP strat, but even if they don't it's still a literally useless stratagem going to marginally useful.

As I see it, it's 1 CP.

You will always have units in strategic reserves with nids, you are not putting them there because you have a lictor.

We have too many and too big models to make efficient use of terrain. If we try to deploy the full army, we will have some of them dangling in the open and exposed to enemy fire.

None of this really matters if Fall Back still lets the enemy slaughter out HTH units without any penalty...

You guys with the big lists are looking at all the minor gak and missing the important stuff.



#1 most important - no guarantee safety from tripoints. No, they aren't opponent dependant, and work at the highest level. This is the biggest change.

#2 units with fly can no longer fallback and shoot. The other big one. This a huge buff that makes up for the loss of tripointing safety, especially since to do that they have to spend CP, which appears to be a more limiting resource in 9th.


Armies that get to fallback and shoot will be naturally very powerful vs melee. But that's the point of them right?

The change about reserves also means that mawloc can go back in reserve and comes back later in the game ( if they survive)

Also having a couple of them coud be possible in order to use the PA stratagem more than once, right?

See the CP cost to bring our "titanic" units.

Paying CP on top of points to bring junk units like Hierodules. Wow.

More importantly people who take baneblades have to pay now.

How is Guliman, they loose some pounts just to play him now, right? (He also generates CP if I temember correctly.)

He generates 3 CP if he is the warlord. So if you bring him in an aux detachment, he pays for itself, but then you have to pay your main detachment.

Spoletta wrote:
He generates 3 CP if he is the warlord. So if you bring him in an aux detachment, he pays for itself, but then you have to pay your main detachment.

Yesterday’s Knights article said today’s Chaos Knights one would touch on the warlord/detachment issue. We also haven’t seen the supreme command detachment.

There is a chance that LoW commanders might not be a major CP sink, even those who give you bonuses like Guiliman. (who takes the sting out with his +3 CP, but still leave you a net loss in your army)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
See the CP cost to bring our "titanic" units.

Paying CP on top of points to bring junk units like Hierodules. Wow.

Don't forget all the FW units are being rebalanced with new books which we will likely not see until launch/after launch of 9th edition.

 Niiai wrote:
More importantly people who take baneblades have to pay now.

They already pay. With points. That's the point of points!!!

It's just trying to re-create the old duel payment system we had in the past with the Force Organisation Chart which limited what you could take as well as the points you had to pay for models. Using CP is just another duel payment option to try and keep army building open and flexible whilst trying to restrict some min-max options from breaking balance.

Of course until we see the full picture its hard to judge

Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.

You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.

The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.

Supet heavies is just anothet flavour of soup. Just not in another codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.

You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.

The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.

Disagree. Points do not equal CP.

But this is a tyranid thread. Leave that guard gak somewhere else, bub.

The FoC was a cost, not as a point cost, but as an opportunity cost. When slots were limited, you had to make (often) hard choices about what to fill them with.

8th flipped this around. When you ran out of slots, you could just spin them off into another detachment and be rewarded for it with extra CPs.

9th is going back to the FoC having some teeth again. It’s not the old hard cap, but if you want to move past a core detachment, you need to pay a moderate CP cost to do so.

Now I don’t know enough about the ‘Nid LoWs to know if they are worth it, even without coughing up the CPs to make space for them. But that’s a unit ballance issue, which hopefully can be fixed with points.

But I like the overall structual move, as it helps reduce spam and make more ballanced armies.

Agreed, the old FOC was a cost system. Heck I remember when Tyranids had a lot of "elite" style unit and the FOC only had very few elite slots. You were really having to make hard choices on what you took and it outright prevented certain types of unit spamming.

The FOC did need changing as the game had grown to include more models and also the diversity of armies had grown, the game had outgrown the old chart; though the core idea of a duel payment system of points and something else is a valid approach.

You can't just "fix" superheavies by making them more and more expensive in points to limit their potential number, because at the same time you'd have to make them more and more powerful to compensate for the higher cost - at which point you're in a self-feeding cycle. Plus the more you raise costs the more you push out other options and diversity in the army.

Fixing "OP" options doesn't always work best by just raising their points. Introducing a CP cost is one way to restrict taking excess super-heavies.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.

You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.

The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.

I mean technically you’re losing CP taking a super heavy already, that ~500 pts is probably another detachment right there that could give you up to 5.

But honestly this complaint is pointless. We haven’t seen the updated LoW costs, LoW are getting the biggest rewrites of any units for 9th, and also LoW are stronger in a smaller point size game which is effectively what 9th will be. Yeah it would stuff 8th Ed LoWs, but we won’t be playing with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All the changes so far actually have me excited for the possibility of updated superheavies possibly being viable again. I’d love to run a Shadowsword in Nidzilla but unfortunately triple soup might be a bit too expensive

Or a Mortimer "Nid-knight".

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.

You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.

The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.

I mean technically you’re losing CP taking a super heavy already, that ~500 pts is probably another detachment right there that could give you up to 5.

But honestly this complaint is pointless. We haven’t seen the updated LoW costs, LoW are getting the biggest rewrites of any units for 9th, and also LoW are stronger in a smaller point size game which is effectively what 9th will be. Yeah it would stuff 8th Ed LoWs, but we won’t be playing with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All the changes so far actually have me excited for the possibility of updated superheavies possibly being viable again. I’d love to run a Shadowsword in Nidzilla but unfortunately triple soup might be a bit too expensive

It Looks like "Nid-soup" might be doable. Take a Brood brothers cult, add a Star brothers command of Nids, and all is good. Cults no longer lose cult feats when adding in Astra-militaria, so not too hard, depending on points.

I saw that. Indeed my desires were answered today. Nids can effectively directly ally with AM now, with no need for triple detachments. A brood brothers Superheavy detachment is enough. Cool stuff! Hoping the Baneblade variants are costed well in 9th because these might be a fun addition to something already soaking the board in high toughness units.

 Niiai wrote:
Supet heavies is just anothet flavour of soup. Just not in another codex.

Then it is not, by definition, soup.

Lemondish wrote:
But this is a tyranid thread. Leave that guard gak somewhere else, bub.

Then replace "Baneblade" with "Hierodule" and the point still stands. Except its worse. Because our titanic units suck.

i prefer the Hierodule to a Baneblade honestly.

Well, looks like Fall Back hasn't changed. I guess shooting is still going to be the way to go; maybe moreso, now that multi-charges are nerfed.

im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........

Like who ever said they were OP with them?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........

Like who ever said they were OP with them?

At least they're not costing detachment points any more.

But overall Nids are in for a very gloom edition under the current leaks. Melee is getting shafted left and right, hordes are getting fracked, stupid eradicators for 120 pts can down ANY monster we have without even breaking a sweat. Even mid size units of stealers are considered hordes for what the blast weapons are concerned.

Can't trap units any more, can't multicharge unless we roll godly, and even if we do, here comes Judicar to make us fight last just for fun.

Interessor sargeant still hits way harder than a Hive Tyrant.

Melee is gone, gaunt carpet is gone, We're left with shooty nidzilla and I will admit that Heavy Venom Cannons are pretty damn sweet with the blast rules and everything, but even then we are really outmatched in this kind of game.

Unless we get severe point drops in our units which I don't think will be the case, I think we're going to be pretty damn low in the food chain for another edition.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........

Like who ever said they were OP with them?

At least they're not costing detachment points any more.

But overall Nids are in for a very gloom edition under the current leaks. Melee is getting shafted left and right, hordes are getting fracked, stupid eradicators for 120 pts can down ANY monster we have without even breaking a sweat. Even mid size units of stealers are considered hordes for what the blast weapons are concerned.

Can't trap units any more, can't multicharge unless we roll godly, and even if we do, here comes Judicar to make us fight last just for fun.

Interessor sargeant still hits way harder than a Hive Tyrant.

Melee is gone, gaunt carpet is gone, We're left with shooty nidzilla and I will admit that Heavy Venom Cannons are pretty damn sweet with the blast rules and everything, but even then we are really outmatched in this kind of game.

Unless we get severe point drops in our units which I don't think will be the case, I think we're going to be pretty damn low in the food chain for another edition.

Add to this the fact that thrope bubbles and psychic powers and negative hit penalties from heavy weapons etc don't stack, that also impacts big nids too.

Look you guys know I'm usually pretty optimistic, but I have to agree with this post. Everything so far looks pretty awful for us, other than smaller boards, and flyers cannot shoot after falling back, which does help vs Tau a little I guess.

 catbarf wrote:
Well, looks like Fall Back hasn't changed. I guess shooting is still going to be the way to go; maybe moreso, now that multi-charges are nerfed.

My current Tyranid build would hit the field with 8 CPs (3 + 5 Battalion + 1 Spearhead - 1 PA Adaptation). Under the new rules my current Tyranid army will hit the field with 8 CPs (12 - 3 Spearhead -1 PA Adaptation), only now I can never try out the 4 Tyrannofex build because "Rule of 3" is now actually a rule.

The more things change...

 Eihnlazer wrote:
im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........

But they keep the Hive Fleet Keyword, right, otherwise their Psychic Resonator rule doesn't work.

And hey, now against horde units (as defined as units with more than 5 models, apparently, in 40K: Tournament Edition), we get lots of extra hits with our very, very overpriced (and likely going up) quintet of Barbed Stranglers.

Far as I can tell everyone who isn't a marine is planning for the end of times and the "worst edition ever" with necron players a bit more positive (though still depressed about reanimation protocols).

So basically if everyone is in the doldrums then it should even out between the factions. That and we are still seeing rules from only partial aspects (not everyone has read the major leak and not everyone has digested it yet of those who have).


Rule of 3 being a thing is a bit of a downside, but at the same time its a good thing in trying to restrict some spam lists from the game. You never know Tyranids might get some new ways to take more with some units. It might even be a bit more of a limit for tyranids than some others since things like warriors, tyrants, etc... can change their role so readily based on weapon loadout.

Eh to much doom and gloom.

Hordes and melee hordes were nerfed, true.

But our only true melee horde unit is the hormagant. Termagants and Gargoyles are our other 2 horde units and they are primarily ranged units

And before anyone mention them, with 12 ppm Genestealers were never a true horde unit. And while they were hurt by the changes they still can be an anti-meta unit as screening is likely to be less common.

But more importantly if you look at the codex 90% of our units are either multi-wound infantry or monsters. One was basically untouched by the changes aside of a minor nerf regarding blast weapons, they other received multiple buffs.

Of course the actually viability will be dictated by the point costs, but those are always fluctuating.