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VC / HVC spam could work. It's a blast now, 3 flat shots from HVC against 6+ models for 18 pts sounds tasty af.

Tyrranocytes / sporocysts with barbed stranglers can also ruin the day of hordes with 36 shots apiece.

Having the whole army with -1 to hit (which will be the cap anyways) will probably be easy to manage, and morale immunity won't hurt either.

Drop the HG to 5 models to avoid blast weapons.

It's not much, but it's honest work.

Too much optimism.

Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.

He addressed the switch to monsters.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Too much optimism.

Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.

He addressed the switch to monsters.

A saving grace would be appropriate cost of monsters. If most of the game goes up in points but monsters stay the same (and Tervigon goes down), then I could see maybe being able to get a Critical mass of ,well, biomass to power through all the violence.

Probably won't happen but a man can dream.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Too much optimism.

Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.

He addressed the switch to monsters.

The termagant ability to tarpit stuff has little to do with their ability to wound stuff in melee. And now that fly cannot fall back and fire I would say they are slightly better at tarpitting.

But honestly being negative about it serves nothing and no one.

Zoanthropes at least got a mild boost, in that psykers can now cast Smite multiple times. So a unit of 6 can output 8-12 MW per turn if they successfully cast, with Catalyst or Onslaught in their pocket if the main caster for that dies.

We also don't have to worry about Overwatch nearly as much, and the new reserve deployment (esp with Pheromone Trail now actually working) gives us more ability to deliver units directly to short range.

I'm not feeling especially positive on the whole, but I see a few things we can maybe work with. I do think I'm going to have to just avoid playing against Primaris for a while, though.

Are there any big winners coming from the ability for monsters being able to shoot while in combat?

Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.

EDIT: Dakkawalkrants too. Plenty other monsters also have shooting attacks that while not significant should help somewhat.

 catbarf wrote:
Zoanthropes at least got a mild boost, in that psykers can now cast Smite multiple times.

The Hive Mind appreciates your optimism, but that's gonna get FAQ'd day 1.

I mean I want to say "The time of the Trygon/Mawloc is now!", but they're pathetically easy to kill.

I don't think it's even necessarily going to get FAQ'd. More likely it's just going to be in the matched play rules. Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition. I expect the rule of three and restrictions on casting smite multiple times with a single unit to both be included in that.

The real kick in the nuts for me is that I think it's all about inevitable that gaunts will go up in points. Like, cultists went from 4 to 6ppm, and they're worse then gaunts are after the nerfs (no access to chapter tactics, no morale immunity, basically the only thing they have going for them is VotLW). So if they couldn't escape nerfs I don't see how we will.

I think it's safe to assume that hordes are functionally dead and MSU is here to stay. With the change to blast weapons rippers have even more value, because blast punishes model count and ripper durability comes from wounds. For 55 points You're getting 15 wounds that blast weapons won't get any bonuses against.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't think it's even necessarily going to get FAQ'd. More likely it's just going to be in the matched play rules. Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition. I expect the rule of three and restrictions on casting smite multiple times with a single unit to both be included in that.

The real kick in the nuts for me is that I think it's all about inevitable that gaunts will go up in points. Like, cultists went from 4 to 6ppm, and they're worse then gaunts are after the nerfs (no access to chapter tactics, no morale immunity, basically the only thing they have going for them is VotLW). So if they couldn't escape nerfs I don't see how we will.

I think it's safe to assume that hordes are functionally dead and MSU is here to stay. With the change to blast weapons rippers have even more value, because blast punishes model count and ripper durability comes from wounds. For 55 points You're getting 15 wounds that blast weapons won't get any bonuses against.

Which is odd, as you think blast weapons would just murder swarms. Wasn’t that a rule at some point? Or am I mixing up game systems/editions again? Could have sworn swarms took 2x damage from blasts/templates.

I jumped into 40k in fifth edition, and from 5th to 7th all templates did double damage to swarm units. That ceased to be the case in 8th edition.

Edit- It wouldn't surprise me though if it ended up becoming a bespoke rule for rippers that they take extra damage from blasts though, at some point.

On the plus side flaming Tyrannofexes can flame and flame again in the fight phase. Right?

 Emicrania wrote:
On the plus side flaming Tyrannofexes can flame and flame again in the fight phase. Right?

Not in the fight phase, shooting is still in the shooting phase. But yes they can melt stuff again.

 Emicrania wrote:
On the plus side flaming Tyrannofexes can flame and flame again in the fight phase. Right?

Not exactly. Its like the pistol rule, meaning if you are in engagement range in your shooting phase you can still fire your weapons (at the models in engagement range). NOT that you get to use them in the fight phase.

So opponents charge, then in your shooting phase you can flame them

I'm starting to think that brigade is going to be the way go, 30 termies, 30 hormies all in 10 man squads, 2 10 man stealer units For flanking or lictor delivery purposes, 2 or 3 3-5 man warrior squads as a base (although this obviously is very dependent on points).

How much this will leave for the bigger stuff is yet to be seen but i am determined to have a sea of little guys.

My stealers all have scy-tals so I'm honestly considering dropping kraken for a make your-own fleet using the ap on scy-tals thing and something else (dont have book yet so i'm unsure). Also, big fan of hormagaunts.

I got into Nids because I loved the look of a carpet of gaunts with MC's stalking amidst them and I am going to see if I can get it to work regardless. At least with msu gaunt units will get better at effectively using cover.

Acidspray t-fex almost certainly. Lictors looking actually quite useful.

Dare i say it? flanking pyrovores?!!! are we about to see them regularly?

I think melee for us will mostly be used to make enemies have to fall back of objectives rather than actively seeking to destroy everything in a steamroller of death and that we will have to play up to the ways of deploying that we now have to control our opponents options ( the more i think about it, this is kinda fluffy too)

People read too much into "can shoot while in combat".

Just like pistols last edition. Remember the last time someone actually shot pistols in combat? Yeah me neither.

If you charge them, it's after shooting so you need to wait engaged in combat for TWO hth rounds before you get to do your trick. If they charge you, you only need to wait 1 hth phase, but , they just charged you which means they mean to kill you dead.

I don't think anything in the Nid codex can take 2 rounds of hth and still be in shape to shoot next turn.

It's a neat little bonus means opponents can't invalidate your exocrine with 60 pts of bikers, but that's about it honestly.

Don't expect that Nidzilla will suddenly go bullet ninja or anything.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition.

The whole rulebook has been leaked. I'm not sure what this "own set of additional rules" you are referring to is.

If you're talking about the Grand Tournament Mission Pack in the new Chapter Approved, that is exactly what it says on the tin: a mission pack for the GT.

Matched play is used at the GT, but matched play =/= tournaments.

Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:

How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.

Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.

My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?

Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.

I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.

Thoughts?

rippers have 3 wounds per base, so anywhere from 3 to 6 rippers per base is what you would put.

I've always build my Termies with 1/3 Devourers, and the rest standard, if dropping a full unit next to a foe is a thing you plan on doing, then a full unit can get work done. Though that is likely a Jormangandr trick. With Lictors Possibly becoming useful again a reserved unit of "Devilgaunts" might just be a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Lictors can work again. I plan on seeing how a unit of Shock-guard can do vs all the mechanical gegays the imperium loves so much.

Not really strategy perhaps. But MWG has a battlereport with 9th edition rules. Nids VS Space Wolves. A nice look at the new rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3T6sU3dXG0

 Nevelon wrote:
Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:

How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.

Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.

My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?

Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.

I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.

Thoughts?

I like a 50/50 mix of devourers/fleshborers on big units. Plenty of firepower and ablative wounds before you have to get rid of devourer gaunts. If you are doing this, then a tervigon is a good investment as well as being synapse it can replenish the fleshborer gaunts keeping the devourers alive longer. As has been said however, with the new strategic reserve rules and the fact that Pheromone Trail strat is actually looking useful a unit or two of 10man devourers may be a good choice.

With rippers I find any less than 4 looks to empty, but more than 5 gets fiddly when painting so i tend to go 4 per base.

 Nevelon wrote:
Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants

Welcome to the maddening hell that is two-piece heads.

So just putting it out there - the change to blast weapons against unit of 6-10 changes your average number of hits from 3.5 to 4. This is not massive. I realise it is really painful rolling that 1 for number of shots, and this will not happen against 6-10, but overall, it's .5 of a shot increase. It is only 11+ where it really makes the difference

 Nevelon wrote:
Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:

How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.

Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.

My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?

Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.

I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.

Thoughts?

I have my Rippers set up so that each unit of three bases has a different number of Rippers on it, in order to make it easy to tell the broods apart. I have three with three Rippers and some terrain bits, three with four Rippers, so on.

Spinefists only make sense on Raveners with their large number of base attacks, and even on them it is marginal due to the short range. Currently I run them with no guns, or with deathspitters. Points changes for 9th might make that change.

I've ran walking Termigants with 1 devourer to 2 fleshborer as part of 30 bug screening squads. 20 ablative wounds is enough that there is a reasonable chance to actually shoot with them. Walking 'gaunts are generally taken for screening/board control, so I'm expecting to lose most of them early and only give them the guns when I can't think of a better place for the points, which is rare.

The devilgaunt bomb is kind of a different story - you deep strike 20 to 30 of them, all with devourers, and look to nuke units with the combination of the reroll from 20 bodies and the volume of shots. The shoot twice means that if you can get good placement you can often kill two units, and if you don't have two targets you spend the CP somewhere else. You definitely want to only run devourers in the bomb. Most armies in the game can kill 20+ gaunts in a turn, which means you are only getting one good turn of shooting out of them, which means you want to maximize the alpha strike. You'll likely have a few survivors to run around being annoying with, but you can only expect to get one hammer blow with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pinecone77 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Lictors can work again. I plan on seeing how a unit of Shock-guard can do vs all the mechanical gegays the imperium loves so much.

I am very excited about trying out shock-guard again. Depending on how points play out, double tapping shock guard in a venom cannon or stranglethorn tyranocyte might actually be usable. With the changes to blast, bringing five cannons with 36" could be very interesting. Next step is to find some way to get them to actually hit. Jorgmdr. power maybe?

It will probably eat a thousand points, but double cannon tyranocyte carrying double shock guard will kill anything short of a Knight after the double tap, and lets you get away from Jorgmdr to avoid the CP hit for multiple detachments. With the smaller board size and Lictors potentially working, I think I'm happy to outflank devilgaunts now, which means I can sit in Kraken or Kronos and splash some GSC for a double battalion structure.

All this is very dependent on how points play out, of course.

babelfish wrote:
I have my Rippers set up so that each unit of three bases has a different number of Rippers on it, in order to make it easy to tell the broods apart. I have three with three Rippers and some terrain bits, three with four Rippers, so on.

That's... actually a really good idea. I may borrow that.

Thanks for the input everyone. I think I’ll start building half this box with devourers, can always adjust the ratio on the next one.

I like the idea of the number of rippers per base for telling them apart. I might also use base decorations for that, if I get to the point where I’m fielding multiple units. I was planning on adding assorted Ultramarine debris to the larger bases, could use shoulder pads on one, bolters on another, helmets on the third, etc.

I already built most of a box on hormagaunts, so know about the 2 part heads. I’ve got 4 more of those guys to build, but was going to do some body swaps with the termagants, just so they had a little more variation. Honestly, it’s just another step and doesn’t bother me too much.

I was planning on staying away from the Tervigon for a few reasons. One, not fond of the look. Ugly models have been known to grow on me over time, especially ones with good rules, so that’s not a hard stop. The spawning/healing rules seem like they are not going to be that big a deal, unless I’m running a lot of units. You can’t spawn new units unless you have reserve points, so unlikely. As for healing, I don’t suspect it’s going to be that hard to focus fire down a blob to just get it off the table. If I wanted to center a list around them, and multiple blobs of termagants, I could see them working. Saturation of multiple units, so there is always one that could be healed, all getting the buffs. But I’m only planning on one or two squads of the little guys, and some of those might be hiding in tunnels.

a squad of Raveners is on my watch list of things to grab eventually. I’m a big fan of the serpentine nid look. My initial thought was the deathspitters, as the idea of mobile firepower to use as troubleshooters appealed to me. The spinefits do look like a nice fit on the unit though. They are crappy shots, but you do get a whole mess of them. Not sure how often they would survive the extra rounds of CC to get to use them though.

Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.

However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.

On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).

princeyg wrote:
Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.

However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.

On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).

3 old metal ones are from the random stock that’s forming the core of my new swarm.


Looking at the rules, they seem OKish? The fact that overwatch is not free might mean more spore mines connect, but they still seem a chunk of points for a few MW a turn.

 Niiai wrote:
Not really strategy perhaps. But MWG has a battlereport with 9th edition rules. Nids VS Space Wolves. A nice look at the new rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3T6sU3dXG0

Transports look like horrifying deathtraps now.

princeyg wrote:
Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.

However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.

On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).

I use Raveners on a regular basis because I am found of devilgaunts. I normally do a Jormungandr drop with three Raveners, 20-30 'gaunts, and a Neurothrope. If I'm running closer to 30 'gaunts I'll bring a fourth Ravener to give more flexibility when I place the unit.

I normally run them naked, or with deathspitters. The deathspitters have enough range that I'll normally get to shoot them the turn they land. If I happen to have the spare points I'll throw rending claws on them, but that is low priority. My experience is that they get beaten up the turn they land, and rarely get to charge. When they get ignored it is because everything nearby can handle them in cc.

I have never had success running then up the table, as much as I love the models and the entire wall of 'nid snakes idea. I've even considered kitting some out with various guns as counts as Hive Guard and running a snakes only army.

For biovores I took the model, cut the gun off the back, and stuck it on Hive Guard. The models bigger and I have it on a Hive Guard base, but because that makes it harder to hide it works against me and no one has ever had an issue with it.

For Pyrovores you could do the same thing, or maybe stick the gun on a Venomthropes body. The sacs on the back might work as acid storage.