Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Tyran**

Looking at the objectives, horde lists aren't necessarily dead. Sure they aren't going to be particularly killy, but the enemy only has 5 turns (6th and 7th turns are no longer a thing) and all missions are objective based and the easiest secondaries are about board control.

The only main downside would be the anti-horde secondary.

**babelfish**

Idle thought...a stranglethorn Harpy averages 4 hits vs 6 to 9 model units (avg 4 shots per cannon, hitting on 4's) and 5.3 hits on 10+ model units. A HVC Harpy gets 3 hits vs 6+ model. That's not actually bad for primaris hunting.

They aren't super durable but considering that a decent army can kill a monster a turn no matter how tough it is, that's not a huge downside.

**princeyg**

[spoiler]

babelfish wrote:
princeyg wrote:
Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.

However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.

On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).

I use Raveners on a regular basis because I am found of devilgaunts. I normally do a Jormungandr drop with three Raveners, 20-30 'gaunts, and a Neurothrope. If I'm running closer to 30 'gaunts I'll bring a fourth Ravener to give more flexibility when I place the unit.

I normally run them naked, or with deathspitters. The deathspitters have enough range that I'll normally get to shoot them the turn they land. If I happen to have the spare points I'll throw rending claws on them, but that is low priority. My experience is that they get beaten up the turn they land, and rarely get to charge. When they get ignored it is because everything nearby can handle them in cc.

I have never had success running then up the table, as much as I love the models and the entire wall of 'nid snakes idea. I've even considered kitting some out with various guns as counts as Hive Guard and running a snakes only army.

For biovores I took the model, cut the gun off the back, and stuck it on Hive Guard. The models bigger and I have it on a Hive Guard base, but because that makes it harder to hide it works against me and no one has ever had an issue with it.

For Pyrovores you could do the same thing, or maybe stick the gun on a Venomthropes body. The sacs on the back might work as acid storage.

I haven't tried jormungandr yet, perhaps its worth a shot.

I like the biovore idea

**N.I.B.**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
People read too much into "can shoot while in combat".

Just like pistols last edition. Remember the last time someone actually shot pistols in combat? Yeah me neither.

If you charge them, it's after shooting so you need to wait engaged in combat for TWO hth rounds before you get to do your trick. If they charge you, you only need to wait 1 hth phase, but , they just charged you which means they mean to kill you dead.

I don't think anything in the Nid codex can take 2 rounds of hth and still be in shape to shoot next turn.

It's a neat little bonus means opponents can't invalidate your exocrine with 60 pts of bikers, but that's about it honestly.

Don't expect that Nidzilla will suddenly go bullet ninja or anything.

Usually your shooty monsters will be the ones that get charged, so you only need to survive 1 round of cc to shoot.
I've played one match with some of the leaked changes. Smaller tables will definately change things, I had trouble keeping my Dakkafexes from being charged. But oh boy the ones that survived did some nasty things in my next shooting phase.

**Nitro Zeus**

I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.

In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.

**babelfish**

I've been excited about dakkafex potential. With the volume of fire and the smaller board sizes it is going to be very hard to keep them from killing what they want to kill. They also have access to the +1 damage strat, correct? Even vs the 1+ save storm shield nonsense they are going to force some nat 1's.

I'm worried about impaler cannon hive guard. I think that they are going to be extremely useful, but I'm concered they are taking a price hike.

**slave.entity**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.

In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.

Re-rolls to hit is a spell not a strat. Outflanking 6 fexes would cost 4CP using the default strategic reserves rule. How are you getting 2CP?

**Nitro Zeus**

slave.entity wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.

In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.

Re-rolls to hit is a spell not a strat. Outflanking 6 fexes would cost 4CP using the default strategic reserves rule. How are you getting 2CP?

oh yeah I meant to say spell (not strat) which is why I didn't include any extra CP costs. I may have misunderstood the strat reserves rule - tho to my defense PL is quite unfamiliar territory

4 CP isn't as attractive at all.

**slave.entity**

Outflanking 6 dakkafex may not even be possible in a 2k game. That's 36PL which may end up being more than half your army in 9e.

I also ran the math on 3 and 6 dakkafex + flyrant with all the buffs you described. It is pitiful. 6 dakkafex + flyrant + successfully casting Lurking Maws only kills ~7.5 primaris. That's 4CP and ~850 pts (8e pts) failing to kill a single squad.

**Spoletta**

Well, using single damage no AP weapons against primaris isn't exactly ideal.

Remember that the game now is extremely focused in the middle of the battlefield and getting into melee is the norm, not something that you need to achieve trough multiple hoops. Our monstrous talons are quite good in the anti PEQ role. Damage 3 is just so good against marines.

The toxicrene is going to be quite good too. Remember that now he gets to strike first even if he gets charged and his melee profile has always been nasty.

Don't play the dakka game against marines. You don't need to kill, it will not give you any points. You need to control the middle end to murder his close combat elements.

**Nitro Zeus**

Agreed Spoletta, but he has a point too. Primaris are a large part of the meta atm unfortunately. Maybe outflanking Tyrannofex may be better equipped for this sort of play.

**Emicrania**

Yeah Tyrannofexes are way better to DS. Maybe a 3 man dakkafexes with maw backed by the OOE could be a thing again. Need to see those points. My bet is on leak this week.

The Hierodule is dead btw @Nitro. 3CP and no fleet makes him borderline useless

**Overread**

We don't actually have rules for the Hierodule nor any of the FW models at present, FW/GW hasn't released the updated book for them. So they could go through some big changes compared to what they were.

My hope is we see these new books release a bit after 9th edition (since they aren't being previewed now so aren't coming out on the launch day, which is a bit of a shame)

**H.B.M.C.**

Overread wrote:
We don't actually have rules for the Hierodule nor any of the FW models at present, FW/GW hasn't released the updated book for them.

We have their current rules, just as we have all the current Tyranid rules, and that's all we've got to go on.

No sense in hoping GW get Hierodules right in a new set of rules because we don't know when those rules are coming and whether they'll actually make big 'Nid beasties worth taking. Right now though they cost CP to take and don't benefit from any Hive Fleet rules. And they were crap before that happened.

**Nitro Zeus**

Scyth Hierodules were not like S tier but pretty underrated before tbh and served as a great power piece for Nidzilla, but yeah at 3 CP and no Hive Fleet, Emicrania is right. Their time is done unless they get a rework.

**Emicrania**

Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.

**Tyran**

Emicrania wrote:
Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.

It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.

**Emicrania**

Tyran wrote:
Emicrania wrote:
Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.

It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.

Can't find the leaks ATM, you sure about that?

**N.I.B.**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.

In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.

As mentioned it looks like that would be 4CP, and requires a Flyrant for the spell. Plus we shouldn't overestimate the 18" range. 6" from board edge = 24" effective range, shouldn't be too hard to avoid or mitigate (2+ save marines in cover). Same problem with outflanking Acidfex, too short range and lousy AP. In certain missions in certain matchups, it could probably be a nice tool. But not as the norm.

Spoletta wrote:
Well, using single damage no AP weapons against primaris isn't exactly ideal.

Remember that the game now is extremely focused in the middle of the battlefield and getting into melee is the norm, not something that you need to achieve trough multiple hoops. Our monstrous talons are quite good in the anti PEQ role. Damage 3 is just so good against marines.

The toxicrene is going to be quite good too. Remember that now he gets to strike first even if he gets charged and his melee profile has always been nasty.

Don't play the dakka game against marines. You don't need to kill, it will not give you any points. You need to control the middle end to murder his close combat elements.

Toxicrene quite good? That's generous. It's kind of a turd that in good Tyranid tradition degrades in the worst possible manner, and probably require you to spend 1CP on Dermic Symbiosis to not just fold immediately to shooting.
I agree that the game will be more centered, especially if you can threaten the flanks. But it will set you back precious expensive points to outflank credible threats.
I'm actually considering Acid Maw on Dakkafexes over Enhanced Senses, because of the centered gameplay and smaller tables. But maybe it's better to just go full dakka focus as they can shoot into their own cc if they survive.

**Tyran**

Emicrania wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Emicrania wrote:
Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.

It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.

Can't find the leaks ATM, you sure about that?

I'm sure, the restriction regarding those detachments refers to the abilities gained from having all the units in the same detachment being of the same faction. Which in our case are Hive Fleet Adaptations.

**pinecone77**

Emicrania wrote:
Yeah Tyrannofexes are way better to DS. Maybe a 3 man dakkafexes with maw backed by the OOE could be a thing again. Need to see those points. My bet is on leak this week.

The Hierodule is dead btw @Nitro. 3CP and no fleet makes him borderline useless

Saw a batrep with the leaks and the CC monsters seem to be getting some needed boosts, lets hope for all the Big bugs...

**Acehilator**

Outflanking an Acidfex means you are double tapping for the first time in the third round. That's just not going to cut it.

If you want any decent shooting at all, you need to invest into a Kronos Patrol or Spearhead, RR1s plus Symbiostorm on a unit of HG or an Exo is too good to pass up. With those points spent, you don't want to invest more into outflanking, I guess.

**catbarf**

Emicrania wrote:
3CP and no fleet

Have I missed something? I know where the 3CP comes from, but why no fleet?

**H.B.M.C.**

Something about titanic units being unable to benefit from Hive Fleet rules.

I honestly cannot find it right now though.

**Nitro Zeus**

N.I.B. wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.

In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.

As mentioned it looks like that would be 4CP, and requires a Flyrant for the spell. Plus we shouldn't overestimate the 18" range. 6" from board edge = 24" effective range, shouldn't be too hard to avoid or mitigate (2+ save marines in cover). Same problem with outflanking Acidfex, too short range and lousy AP. In certain missions in certain matchups, it could probably be a nice tool. But not as the norm.

24" from EITHER board edge, anywhere up and down the entire board other than enemy DZ and edge. On a smaller board too. Avoiding that is going to be a lot harder than you imply.

Also it doesn't require a Flyrant, it has universal range and can be cast from any unit that has vision. That power is far from restrictive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Acehilator wrote:
Outflanking an Acidfex means you are double tapping for the first time in the third round. That's just not going to cut it.

Walking them gives you the same or worse, and has them taking damage along the way, and they still perform for me. Outflanking the first turn on they hit the board they get set-up and do some dammy, the second turn they can start knocking stuff down, and it's gonna be much harder to back out for them. I'd say playtest this before dismissing it.

**H.B.M.C.**

Which power are we talking about here?

**Nitro Zeus**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Something about titanic units being unable to benefit from Hive Fleet rules.

I honestly cannot find it right now though.

Well, Hierodule in my list gained literally nothing from Kraken fleet rules anyway, so that's not a problem

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Which power are we talking about here?

JORMUNGANDR - Lurking Maws(WC6): Pick a visible enemy unit. Until end of turn, re-roll hit rolls against that unit from friendly Jormungandr units set up on the battlefield this turn. You cannot cast this in the first battle round.

**H.B.M.C.**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
JORMUNGANDR - Lurking Maws(WC6): Pick a visible enemy unit. Until end of turn, re-roll hit rolls against that unit from friendly Jormungandr units set up on the battlefield this turn. You cannot cast this in the first battle round.

Ah. Ok. That one. I've not had any experience with playing Jormungandr.

Odd that it has no range. It's like Synaptic Lure, a power I have used a bit. Really surprised they didn't FAQ that.

**DaBraken**

One thing i stumbled over by reading the new core rules was the following:

P15/16: Note, that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon's attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them.

Maybe i remember it the wrong way, but i thought you only could shoot things you can acutally see and are in range, and not things out of line of sight.
This rule however states, that you can eradicate whole units, when you can see just one dude alone, no matter if you blast him away, the rest will shoot around corners and whatnot.

Possible scenario:
Only some guys are in sight and range to ALL of your weapons. First shots kills them, and the rest of the unit (with other weapons, grenades etc), which could not shoot any further either, nor can see anything, now load their heck of ammunition on the spot someone have been killed an eyeblink befor to slay models, they have no idea where they could be.

Has this ever been this way?

**Tyran**

It also worked that way in 8th.