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Well, that's because, with the exception of hormas, our low level gribbles aren't really melee units. They are fodder meant to control objectives and protect our more valuable units.

9th edition is doing a hard balance pass on the melee vs shooting thing.

This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.

Just look at the 2 new codici. Marines lost full reroll auras, lost double shooting on aggressors and lost all buffs on vehicles. Marine shooting is only a shadow of its former self, definitely not the omnipotent firepower we were used to in 8th. Only eradicators and plasmaceptors keep it afloat.

At the same time, they used to have very very few decent melee choices, even with their improbable amount of datasheets. Now they have bladeguards, new terminators, outriders, vanguard vets, assault intercessors... and that's not including special snowflake chapter goodness (Deathwing, sang guards, wolfity wolf).

Marine lists are now 70-80% assault oriented, because the melee threats have been really pushed in terms of durability and offensive capability.

As a consequence, compared to the new design, our shooting choices are actually quite good. On the other hand, our melee threats are simply made with a different design. You can see this new design applied to a nid unit in the scydule, which for its cost possesses some melee features that are simply unheard of for us.

Spoletta wrote:
This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.

Blast rules. Eradicators. Vehicles firing in combat. Strat to avoid tri-pointing.

If they're really nerfing shooting in 9th, then they're doing a fething bad job of it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.

Blast rules. Eradicators. Vehicles firing in combat. Strat to avoid tri-pointing.

If they're really nerfing shooting in 9th, then they're doing a fething bad job of it.

They are actually doing an excellent job.

Evidence:

1) Top lists are all assault based.
2) Tau are screwed.

I think the issue is that melee hordes are pretty much dead.

But melee heavy infantry? it is doing great.

Sadly we don't have melee heavy infantry.

 Tyran wrote:
I think the issue is that melee hordes are pretty much dead.

But melee heavy infantry? it is doing great.

Sadly we don't have melee heavy infantry.

Yes but our FW monsters are twice as cost effective as our other big bugs, perhaps they hold "OK enough" in brawls against heavy infantry.

Math is needed here, but damage3+d3 combined with stormshields dropping to 4++ should somewhat balance the scales

On a comical note, we have hve guards which are supposed to be heavy infrantry. They are a total trash tier unit, probably the absolute worst heavy infantry unit in the game TBH, but in the next codex they may get more attacks and weapons with more damage. or cruching claws with no neg to hit, and so on.
GSC also have "40% too expensive" aberrants... Oh how these mighty lads have fallen

Spoletta wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.

Blast rules. Eradicators. Vehicles firing in combat. Strat to avoid tri-pointing.

If they're really nerfing shooting in 9th, then they're doing a fething bad job of it.

They are actually doing an excellent job.

Evidence:

1) Top lists are all assault based.
2) Tau are screwed.

That isn't because GW is 'nerfing shooting while empowering melee', it's because the mission design greatly favors melee as a means to contest objectives.

Play the 9th Ed statlines with 8th Ed missions and it's still a shooting game as ever. The utility of melee troops is not from having comparable combat effectiveness to shooting; it's from their ability to contribute to objective gameplay, and a mission design that makes defensive armies non-viable.

Melee isn't being made more powerful in raw damage output as compared to shooting, it just has more game utility now than it used to.

Tyran wrote:I think the issue is that melee hordes are pretty much dead.

But melee heavy infantry? it is doing great.

Sadly we don't have melee heavy infantry.

Warriors and Tyrant Guard could fit the bill. Both only need minor tweaks- most of all just cost- to become effective melee infantry.

I'm curious: How would you tweak Tyranid warriors?

I've always found them to be far too fragile for their points, even as far back as 2nd Ed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm curious: How would you tweak Tyranid warriors?

I've always found them to be far too fragile for their points, even as far back as 2nd Ed.

Fragility for their cost is part of it, odd pricing on their weapons relative to the platform is another part. The base profile is just too expensive for what you get. A dual ScyTal Warrior is just not worth it, and Devourers are a joke compared to Deathspitters, so you're encouraged to load up on upgrades- which makes them killy, but cuts their durability.

So, baseline changes:
1. A significant points drop on the base profile, and a mild hike on Boneswords. Make more of a progression from Scything Talons -> Rending Claws -> Boneswords, so that you have to think about what you want the unit to do and whether loading up on expensive melee weapons fits your intended purpose. At the same time, a significantly cheaper base profile means that 'budget' Warriors start to become viable.
2. Similarly, drop Devourers to 3pts; they shouldn't be 2/3 the cost of Deathspitters while worse in range, S, and AP.

Spitballing hard numbers, if the base profile dropped to 16pts, Boneswords went up to 4pts, and Devourers down to 3pts, then we'd be looking at 21pts for a Rending Claws/Devourer Warrior (vs 27pts currently, so 75%), while a Boneswords/Deathspitter Warrior would be 26pts (vs 30pts currently, so 87%). Both builds get a points drop, but the 'budget' build being 80% of the cost of the expensive one, rather than 90% of the cost, makes it more worth considering.

On top of that, random non-exclusive ideas to really juice them up:
-Bring back Extended Carapace as a biomorph; a 3+ save wouldn't be meta-breaking but it sure would help when they need to be durable.
-Bring back Enhanced Senses as a biomorph. I mean, come on.
-Implement Unyielding Chitin as an innate ability (tweak points as necessary). Reducing incoming damage by 1 takes a lot of the sting out of multi-damage weapons that ordinarily kill them easily.

More generally, and getting away from my 'minor tweaks' statement, being vulnerable is not a uniquely Warrior problem. Most of the army suffers from being glass hammers, but neither exceptionally fast nor especially 'hammery'. So what if Synapse outright conferred a 6+ FNP to nearby units, with Leviathan and Catalyst improving it further and/or extending the range? Beyond the obvious benefits, 6+ FNPs interact non-intuitively with D2/D3 weapons against W2/W3 models, which would make Warriors significantly more resilient to multi-damage weapons. This would help against their biggest threat, while reinforcing their role as lynchpins of the swarm. On top of that, why is it that Adaptive Physiology is limited to two units max? I'd like to see that cap removed- or, better yet, implemented as an army-wide trait, where before the game begins you can pick an adaptation for the whole army to suit your unique matchup. Warriors shouldn't need the crutch of a two-per-army Enhanced Resistance (or Dynamic Camouflage, if you're Jormungandr) to be useful.

Even without army-wide changes, Warriors aren't fundamentally broken- they're a generalist heavy infantry unit in an edition that is kind to generalist heavy infantry, so there are a lot of levers GW can work with to adjust them.

Edit: Weren't they 50-ish points in 2nd? I remember them being hideously expensive for what they were.

Even 21pts for a Rending Claws/Devourer Warrior that's just going to get chewed up by Heavy Bolters doesn't sound appealing.

I've always thought that Tyranid Warriors should have a 3+ save by default. Make them the "Marines" of Tyranid armies.

No, they shouldnt have a 3+ baseline. Ceremite armor is gonna be more durable than chitin no matter how you cut it. They should be either T5 or 4 wounds apiece though.

GW went through a phase of making size matter for wounds count, and warriors are significantly bigger than most other infantry. I'd rate them at least as chunky as Custodian terminators, so they should be 4 wounds apiece.

Making them S5 would make their melee not be a joke, but you can easily just implement that to boneswords (make them 4pts apiece and give them +1str in addition to what they already do).

No real reason for warriors to be the same strength as genestealers.

So basically bump warriors to 4 wounds apiece for no cost increase, make boneswords give +1str and cost 1 extra point, and give them the option to purchase extended carapace for 2pts a model.

I'd even go so far as to say Deathspitters need to be assault 4. I dont expect them to go to damage 2 like a heavy bolter but they should get more shots. Devourers definately need a points drop, even down to 2pts apiece as they are just assault bolters.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even 21pts for a Rending Claws/Devourer Warrior that's just going to get chewed up by Heavy Bolters doesn't sound appealing.

From my perspective, that's 21pts for a model that is 50% more resilient than a 20pt Intercessor against those Heavy Bolters. As for weapons it's worse shooting than an Intercessor, but better melee, so not awful there either. Out of curiosity, how cheap would a RC/Dev Warrior have to be for you to consider it?

First and foremost, Tyranid Warriors NEED to be at least the Gravis equivalent of a Marine (T5 3W 3+) or have a similar profile (T5 4W 4+); you can't have a decent unit otherwise because any loadout that increases killingness is making the points/wounds ratio even worse than before and you can't afford to have an already bad profile to begin with.

Well you can field 3 melee warriors for 60 points. Double scything tallons for ekstra attacks. Perhaps go adrenal glands for that +1 to charge. Our cheapest 'heavy' option. :-p

Probably better with lash whip and bonesword, shooting weapon optional. I really like the warriors lash whip because that forces them to be shot, or charged by a dreadnought. Charge them with integressiors aggressors or the new shield primaris and you get to fight back.

I've actually been running some warriors with double bonesword and toxin sacs lately to some success.

They threaten even 2 wound models fairly well.

I think that warriors will just get the stock upgrades of 9th, and that will be fine for them.

- Baked in -1 damage instead of a strat, like Dnaughts.

- Weapon profile improvement for melee weapons.

I'm betting on scythals going to either -1AP or +1 Strenght, boneswords +1 Strenght and rending claws -2 AP.

That is enough to make warriors in line with the current game.

The only things I consider "must haves" is adding one or two wound to our non gaunt infantry. 4 Wound Warriors, and two wound Stealers etc.


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I would be super stoked at 5W Warriors!

I think Tyrant guards need more love than warriors.

Anyway, lets move away from santa wishlisting:

Has anybody tried the scythed dule ? Have you had issues (like me) getting his base through terrain ?
If I had known (I did have suspicions...) I would have doubled down on Dimas as soon as FW book dropped. Now my "FW shop" is all sold out (so I will mix a mawloc kit with the tervigon/tyrano kit and do my second kitbashed dima, costing me twice as much...)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm curious: How would you tweak Tyranid warriors?

I've always found them to be far too fragile for their points, even as far back as 2nd Ed.

3+ save would go a long way.
Also I think they should have WS2+ and BS 3+

Personally I would prefer a 4th wound, so they don't become basically primaris.

Also all those 4s on the profile would look aesthetically pleasing.

My first two thoughts on tyranids as a whole would be to give them a different type of durability. This is just the surface of what needs to change in my opinion, but if we're talking wishlist sort of stuff...

First, Synapse gives Feel No Slain a la Graia. Gives tyranids that "They just wont die" sort of vibe.
Second give tyranids alot of wounds, and better damage tracks if at all. 6 wound warriors, 12 wound carnifex with no damage track, 20-24 wound Tervigons and Tyrranofex, perhaps even more. I'm fine with having less invulnerable saves if they have that many more wounds.

Nids major issue currently it output. We're now in a place where we have solid amount of high quality shots in the reasonable cost range but have almost no high volume low st output at anything like what other armies do.

Anything Monster that isn't an exocrine, dima, or heirodule needs a revamp in 1 of 3 ways (preferably 2). Increased durability (W/Inv/T), Higher volume output, and/or point overhauls. Did you know a Barbed Heirodule is a solid unit and that just two carnifexes in a similar roll cost the same or more and are massively pt for pt worse.

So I grabbed the big Nid battle force Brood swarm box and am mulling over how to build it. Obvious answer is “magnets”. Slightly less obvious answer is “You are a casual player, and are unlikely to face anything tougher then your son’s Salamanders, so just go with what looks cool”. Or "We have no clue what is going to happen if/when we get a codex, ask your magic 8-ball”. All of these are true.

The Hive Tyrant gets wings. That’s going to be fixed. I think they just look awesome, and will make it look like the centerpiece of the army that she should be. I recognize that there are some nice things about the Swarmlord, but that will come later if I get another one. My first though when scanning the rules was monstrous scything talons and a HVC as a general TAC build. I like the way the talons look (more then claws/swords) and feel you can never have enough AV firepower in a list. How can you make a WYSWYG flyrent? You get two arm choices, but one set of arm sockets is taken up with the wings? If I had to pick one for modeling, not sure how that would go. I think the claws look better, but there is something to be said for the wings and gun look as the big momma of the gargoyle swarm.

Are there any relics that make something a lot better than others? If I can’t be WYSWYG it’s not a huge deal, but I do like to keep as close as I can. Going with a shooty relic would tilt things towards the gun build. It might not be true-WYSWYG, but you would look at it and think “That’s something that shoots well” vs. “That’s a flying blender”

There are enough options and it looks easy enough to magnetize, but I’m not going to do all the options, so am noodeling around idea for the primary build.

Gargoyles have 0 options, they just get built.

I was planning on just glueing the Exocrine, but from the instructions it looks like the headswap should be real easy to do. Might just glue whatever arms I think look better on, or magnetize them if I want to go all the way.

I like the classic look of the stealers, but there is no reason to not give them talons these days. Carapace looks to be a trap, but I might model them on anyway to help tie them visually with the rest of the army. Looking at the ones on the box, they just seem naked without a little purple coving them up.

Hive guard I’m leaning hard into impaler cannons. As I’m fixed with the flyrent, the bodyguards don’t really appeal to me. Plus I think they look ugly. If I want a CC unit, I’ll grab some 'fexes or warriors. So if going with shooty, the impalers seem worth the points over the shock. Plus look cooler. And if I’m already going fuzzy on the WYSWYG, why not go with the better looking option?

So am I missing anything major? Just wanted to float ideas for opinions.

 Nevelon wrote:
My first though when scanning the rules was monstrous scything talons and a HVC as a general TAC build. I like the way the talons look (more then claws/swords) and feel you can never have enough AV firepower in a list. How can you make a WYSWYG flyrent? You get two arm choices, but one set of arm sockets is taken up with the wings? If I had to pick one for modeling, not sure how that would go. I think the claws look better, but there is something to be said for the wings and gun look as the big momma of the gargoyle swarm.

His legs can count as scything talons. So you save the trouble modeling it another way.

I was planning on just glueing the Exocrine, but from the instructions it looks like the headswap should be real easy to do. Might just glue whatever arms I think look better on, or magnetize them if I want to go all the way.

Maybe this picture is of any help finding the right spots for your magnets.
https://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2018/2/28/933981-Exocrine%2C%20Haruspex%2C%20Magnet%2C%20Tyranids.jpg

Very useful pic there, thanks.

Legs don’t look very scythe-y, but is what it is I guess. Closer to WYSWYG at least.

The secret assembly option for gargoyles is apparently magnets instead of glue for the base.

 Niiai wrote:
The secret assembly option for gargoyles is apparently magnets instead of glue for the base.

I do that for my Eldar jetbikes. It makes them possible to get to the FLGS. Probably a good call for the gargs, at least the plastic ones.

My old metal ones I’ll need to take a look at when I clean them up. Might be too much torque for small magnets to deal with.

I’d recommend sticking coins or washers to the bottom of the gargoyle bases, gives them some stability

This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?

A lot of people are still not gaming. I'd love to hear how current Nids are holding up against the 9th books.