Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They do get detachment rules, since they are monsters. Your thinking about Auxillary Super Heavy detachments (which do not benefit from hive fleet rules).

Rulebook:

DETACHMENT ABILITIES
Every Codex lists a set of abilities that units in a Detachment gain if every unit in that Detachment is from a specified Faction. Units in Auxiliary Support Detachments, Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments and Fortification Network Detachments never gain any Detachment abilities, even if every unit in that Detachment is from the Faction specified.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

All the biovore spores are single man units so you cant really bait them or shoot them effectively. The 3 man units from the sporocysts will all pop at the same time, but the mortals they deal are not limited to only the models within 3" (the rule says when the spore explodes it deals damage ot the nearest enemy unit, not the one that triggered the explosion).

Oh yeah, now I remember the whole spore mine exploding discussions from the past. I don't agree with this but no reason to get into this again. It really needed a faq.

The 5++ and the -1 to damage are not detachment rules, they are army wide rules. Sporocysts benefit from them.

 Tyran wrote:
The 5++ and the -1 to damage are not detachment rules, they are army wide rules. Sporocysts benefit from them.

Ah I see, didn't realise that.

shogun wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The 5++ and the -1 to damage are not detachment rules, they are army wide rules. Sporocysts benefit from them.

Ah I see, didn't realise that.

That said, I know I'm still really skeptical of this whole thing. Sporocysts are just... man. They are so bad. It's not like the Harpy where you have a gakload of utility in the rules, they just needed a little more durability. Sporocysts get the durability with CS but they still don't have the damage or anything really. And the cringe-y part of their rules is that there are actually not that many tables where you can deploy multiple sporocysts in relevant places, with the requisite amount of terrain that is needed.

Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?

 Niiai wrote:
Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?

Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.

I love that I finally have a chance to bring a carnifex heavy list that doesn't suck and then immediately after GW preview a weapon that can one shot anything in my list. I guess that is what I get for not buying the giant FW models.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?

Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.

I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.

 Niiai wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?

Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.

I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.

Yeah, okay, good point. I think the damage is a little bit less than Genestealers, but we still have those nice Leviathan strats to get extra hits on 6s, and Genestealers often overkilled anyways. Let's both try and see what happens!

ETA: Would you still bring a big brick of warriors in such a situation? That seems cool, but all of a sudden you're putting a lot of points into midsized units and missing out on a lot of the Crusher Stampede goodness. I'm inclined to keep running 3 x3 for the Bioweapon Bond, but I'm not as bullish on the Warriors as you to begin with. Thinking about it, 1 unit of 9 Raveners is probably sufficient, but there would be reason to run 2 units of 9 for the same reason one runs 2 units of 20 Genestealers.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I love that I finally have a chance to bring a carnifex heavy list that doesn't suck and then immediately after GW preview a weapon that can one shot anything in my list. I guess that is what I get for not buying the giant FW models.

If one super gun is enough to put you off the band wagon....you need more kool aid! I am looking at Tyrant guard for swarmy...just like in the olden days! Railgun, Guard dies, Railgun, Guard dies, Railgun, Guard dies. My turn! Slingshot! Tau death cries...Nom, nom!

Basicly I'm looking at everything to see what can work. Ravagers just might be a good answaer as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?

Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.

I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.

One cool thing is you can use a cp to make a Ravager Synapse. That 'solves" many of the problems with Ravagers (being out of Synapse). Having two Broods makes even more sense after using a CP for that purpose.

In the new Codex, if they would just make the Red terror Synapse, she would likely be worth taking.

pinecone77 wrote:

One cool thing is you can use a cp to make a Ravager Synapse. That 'solves" many of the problems with Ravagers (being out of Synapse). Having two Broods makes even more sense after using a CP for that purpose.

The adaptive physiology to give a creature the Synapse rules only applies to Monsters. So wouldn't work on Raveners, as they're infantry.
You can just run up another fast synapse unit with them though. Flyrants are pretty quick.

Putting speed aside as they are quite comparable.

16 genestealers are 208 points. 64 attacks on
the charge. Mind you once they drop under 10 you loose 25% of them. (All 16 are on 48 attacks then.) you might not get all 16 into base contact.

9 ravaners are 198 points. 36 attacks. Ouch, that is a big hit.

But the 16 genestealers are 16 wounds, the ravaners are 27 wounds, 11 wounds more.

Genestealers have the toxin sack. You can also do budget ravaners with double scything at 180 points for 45 attacks, but you have no AP.

Alrighty folk.

To summarise - used to play Nids all the way back in 4th, 5th and 6th edition. Then sold them on for a number of reasons - bills and gaunts and genestealers are just...no fun to paint. At all.

Then I slipped out of 40k altogether with 9th ed's release as I grew tired of the first 6 codexes being over 75% power armour or which all but 1 were Imperial. Ew. That and a lack of Crusade support.

But something has changed. Commission funds...and a WD army of renown have pulled me back in.

Crusher Stampede? Invuln saves across the board and -1 damage on monsters? Don't mind if I do!

So I come to you, to figure out the best generalist options.

The initial swarm is coming soon...

2 Hive Tyrants
3 Tyranid Warrior broods
2 Tyrannofexes
2 Carnifexes

So I am trying to figure the best layout. Obviously a limited number of models means things may have to pull double duty so, builds need to be flexible.

Tyrants - One planned for foot, one planned as a Flyrant. Brain is thinking HVC and Scytals for the Foot Tyrant - not sure for Flyrant. Stranglethorn or Deathspitters and Rending Claws I'm thinking.

Warriors - My gut is telling me to stick to Deathspitters and Bonesword/Lash Whip. Venom cannons or Barbed Stranglers though?

Tyrannofexes - 1 with Acid Spray as an obvious go to, 1 with Rupture Cannon for no reason other than I actually like the Rupture Cannon.

Carnifexes - Tempted to make them a brood of Screamer Killers for the superior bio-plasma but the generic options of the 'normal' Carnifex are tempting as well - as I'm sure slapping Tusks on makes a meaner assault critter but my brain also plays with the idea of a Gunfex build with a Monstrous Acid Maw to plug the melee gap...

So just wanting general advice for generalism's sake.

The plan going forward with the list does involve adding another Carnifex and Old One Eye, as well as some Venomthrope broods... and possibly fleshing out the Warrior Broods from 3 to 6.

And eventually - FW plans may consider Dimachaerons and Hierodules.

And yes, I know the army build is basically going to be something like Battalion plus Spearhead detachment...because most our Monsters are Heavy Support choices.

First welcome back.

Second, monster stanpede is probably worse off then regular tyranids (who are quite good after the Octarius release.) However, it is probably not bad, and it is very fun.

To have a good list you need a number of different units doing a lot of jobs. Long range shooting is one of them, and tyranids only have a handfull of dedicated anti tank shooters.

The list include hiveguard, exochrine, tyranofex and barbed hierodule. Zoanthropes have some targeting issues, but mortal wounds are great. Carnifex and hive tyrant cannons do not have the volume of fire to be reliable.

The tyranofex is by far the worst as he is worse VS anything not T8, where he is best. The flamer tyranofex is quite interesting, but he is not anti tank. I would advice you to make two rupture cannon cannon tyranofexes unless you are buying any more anti tank.

Build one Swarmlord. Build one flying hive tyrant with your choise of guns. Since he has 2 arm sockets, just proxy the last weapon from game to game as you see fit.

I am not gonne do a whole warrior debate here. But the crusher stampede is very unit light. Giving warriors double scything Tallon is probably the best. It is the cheapest. (Does not come in the kit.)

Lastly, sett up the carnifexes with the - 1 to hit them and enchanted sence, and the 24 dakka shots. Crusher stampede list can have a problem VS many models, and those fix that problem.

 Niiai wrote:
Putting speed aside as they are quite comparable.

16 genestealers are 208 points. 64 attacks on
the charge. Mind you once they drop under 10 you loose 25% of them. (All 16 are on 48 attacks then.) you might not get all 16 into base contact.

9 ravaners are 198 points. 36 attacks. Ouch, that is a big hit.

But the 16 genestealers are 16 wounds, the ravaners are 27 wounds, 11 wounds more.

Genestealers have the toxin sack. You can also do budget ravaners with double scything at 180 points for 45 attacks, but you have no AP.

To me genestealers are for killing something while Ravaners lack the raw output for that and would instead be to throw out and tie something down before it gets to the rest of your army

I tryed crusher stampede. 2000 VS Death Guard.

1 swarmlord
1 dakka tyrant
1 neuronthrope, unit can re-roll hit, 2 units can. Reposittion

3 warriors, link tallons
3 warriors, link tallons
3 warriors, link gun and whip

1 damakharon, feed for wounds adpation

1 Tyranoflex, flamer
1 Exocirne
1 Scything Hierodule

1 Hive Crone

Opponent

1 tallyman
1 unknown caster character
1 unknown flamer character
1 unknown grenade character (elite?)

10 poxwalkers
10 poxwalkers

1 fleshmawer blightdrone
2 small robots with melta and rocketlauncher
1 relic contemptor with rocket launcher and volkites
1 relic contemtor with rocket launcher and volkites
5 death guard super terminators
3 death guard super Terminators.

1 plagueburst crawler (tank)
1 plagueburst crawler (tank)

We rolled up mission 23, the smallest deploimentsone. (Small square) Hold 2, hold on 3. Some line of sight blocking on each side.

He won rolling for turn 1. Reposition on my warlord was rather useless, no place to reposition them.

His turn 1. He shot my tyranofex. My dimachaeron was bracketed. My hive crone was almost brackedet.

My turn 1. Warriors gave pluss to hit to exochrine, dimachaeron and hiveguards. Hiveguards got re-roll to hit.

Exocrine slimmer maggots. Only hits on 2 shots (double shoot.) Does not roll to wound.

Hive guards double shoot (stratagem) hits a lot, fail to wound a lot, saves a lot. 2 wounds go through.

My dimachaeron double moved with the Swarmlord. But could not charge anything good due to the brackedet movement. He charges 10 poxwalkers and kill 6 of them.

My hive crone charged a plagueburst crawler (tank). But the roll to wound stratagem in impact is based on remaining wounds. It does nothing. (He will hold up the plagueburst crawler (tank) for the rest of the game though.)

To summarize, all my shooting and melee whiffed.


His turn 2:

Kills my dimachaeron. Shoots my hive guards down to one 4 models. Brings the Exocrine quite low. Shoots my hive tyrant a lot. Deep strike death guard Terminators, manage the 9 inch charge.

My turn 2:

All shooting whiffed, even with the shoot twice on hiveguards. They deal 3 damage but not a lot.

Swarmlord charges the 3 death guard Terminators and kills them. Scything Hierodule charges the other death guard Terminators. He manage to get 5 wounds, he saves 4 of them. (Saves on 4++.)

His turn 3:

He shoots and kills stuff. Swarmlord explodes and take out the Exocrine. Death guard Terminators kill my scything Hierodule. I have left:

1 warrior
1 warrior
1 wounded hive tyrant
1 hive guard in melee with a flesh mawer
1 neuronthrope
1 hive crone (stil tying up the tank.)

I have killed:
one of the little robots with rockets and multi melta.
15 poxwalkers.
3 deathshroud Terminators.

I am way behind on points. I consede.

Post game evaluation:
- To little long range shooting. Failing to kill any of the ranged treats was just a major problem. When I hit the low end of the bell curve I am very far behind.
- Both the dimacaron and the hive crone would be good if I got turn 1. But when I did not get turn 1 that left me very far behind. That was 400 points wasted.
- The fact that the dimachaeron is T7 and not T8 is a major handicap compared to the scything Hierodule.
- Not getting a turn 1 charge because I was too brackedet sucked. (As opposed to say a unit, like genestealers.)
- The dakka hive tyrant was quite bad once he got stuck in melee. In 8th edition you could just fall back and shoot.
- Small deployment zones really hurt me.
- I should be spending my CP better. Starting at 9 was to little. Using transhuman stratagem for 2 CP was killer. I need to spend them smarter. Getting no result out of slicker maggot and shoot twice turn one was a big let down.
- The small number of quality attacks on the Scythed hierodule was really bad VS Death Guard Terminators. Wounding on 5 dice, him saving 4+ on 4 of them was just insane.

Looking for advice for better range weapons VS death guard on a general all comers list. Suggestions are welcome.

 Niiai wrote:
[spoiler]I tryed crusher stampede. 2000 VS Death Guard.

Looking for advice for better range weapons VS death guard on a general all comers list.............Suggestions are welcome.

It's not about better range weapons... you got to look at your armylist as a whole and the strategy you use to claim the objectives. What do you want to achieve at the end of turn 2 ...and 3....and 4? You cannot simply move forward and kill stuff and see where that get's you. With this armylist you simply give the opponent the oppertunity to kill stuff one by one and you just as well paint big bull's eyes on them. Having tough MC is not enough if you cannot do damage yourself, it just takes them a bit longer to kill them.

You want better shooting? Look for hive guard list that are purely focussed on getting the most out of indirect shooting. The rest is rather.. meh... I also like to have one devourer flying hive tyrant to remove cheap infantry but the tyrannofex, exocrine and hive crone are not really impressive units.

If it is Deathguard in particular that you are fighting, MW are your friend. Do you have Zoeys? I like using a Beatstick Tyrant, that would work very well next to your Dakatyrant. What models do you have available? A sixth Hive guard would be nice.

I'd suggest playing a couple more games before you switch up, as you sometimes just get a bad table. You might have more luck next time.

I do not have zoeys, but I am considering getting some. It is that, Malantrope or the venomtrope (should work well with crusher stampede.)

The sixt hiveguard and mawlock got upgraded to the tyranofex last minut.

The tyranofex and hive crone where very bad there. The plagueburst crawler can upgrade its mortar to become D3. It is very good at attacking hive guards. I am honestly reconsidering hive guards in that matchup, although I try not to tailor my lists.

With the wrong tools I did the wrong model for the wrong job. I need to find a good crusher stampede lists that works.

The D3 mortars are good for the exact same reason the hive guard are good.. they work great, ignore LOS etc etc.

However those crawlers, whilst swingy, should only kill 1.2 models per turn per tank. 3.5 shots, Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3s+ (78%), when they spend the CP for the flat 3 damage. Which can only be done once per turn for a single tank?

They excel in killing MEQ's but against T5 with 5++, perhaps in cover for a 2+ (so 5+ with AP-2). Give them Enhanced Resistance and you can now shrug off the majority of firepower from those tanks!

Yeah. That is true. They did not actually die to the mortars. It was the flesh mower blight drone that did them in turn 3. It came from the wrong angle for me to intercept, and I had to little of the right guns. It was a gak list.

They where behind Los blocking terrain, but not in cover. With how tasty they are they wouldbe prime targets for shooting with relic contemptor dreads, the side sponsors on the tanks and the small robots when/if they came close enough. It really was a gak game, fun though. And nice opponent. I am learning him the ropes, after two losses VS my SW he deserved winn.

But the shocking realization that the mortar can be D3 was, well, shocking.

Makes me 2ant to reconsider enchanted resistance warriors. One adaption and one CP, but they are hitting on 2's with shooting. Crusher stampede needs some large dice pools as well. Not just quality high dice that bellcurvewhifs to 4++ like I did to the Terminators. S5 Ap1 deathspitters seems awesome! Ignoring AP 1 and 2, potensial - 1 damage stratagem and 5++ seems like a great place to be. We don't really need dermich symbiosis in a crusher stampede list.

Also, with so many stratagems and so little CP, perhaps we do not need warzone octarion leviathan? I mean, Kronos psykick power is great. Behemot relic claw on flying hive tyrant, also great!

Leviathan is amazing, so far ahead of all the others in terms of strategem flexibility.

However even if it was just Hive Mind Imperative, it would be worth it. Making a crusher stampede BFB (big fast bug) objective secured at 12-18 models is insanely good. Can't stress that enough.

Is this from a theoretical standpoint or have you empiric evidence from a crushing stampede list beeing played?

Because that has some good stratagems in it. And one codex and three codex supplement puts a real strain on your CP. It is insane. A crusher stampede might want more then 3 heavy support so you do not start at 12 CP. Then you might want extra relic, warlord trait or strategic adaption, so you might start on 8 CP.

Shooting twice, +1 damage on big gun, fight again, fight on death (both versions), mortal wounds when charing (witch you probably will be spamming in a crusher stampede list.) All of that is A+ and costs CP.

Hive mind imperative is good. But so is say symbiostorm.

And that's why you need the Adaptive Neural Lobe from the Leviathan supplement.

I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2. But that is not a guarantee. Many games are virtually over by turn 3. (Although if you have very balanced games this might help.) If I am not mistaken your are stil restricted to gaining max 1 CP per game erouns outside of stratagems and the one you gain at the start of your turn.

The go to artifact is resonance barb, usually. But you might be in the market for an adaptive neural lobe.

 Niiai wrote:
I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.

You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.

I've not yet played a crusher stampede list but my earlier Nids lists were similar.

What I have had lots of experience with is objective secured units & missions. Being able to bring an 8-12-18 model unit onto an objective is strong. Then either turning off objective secured or having it yourself, it really changes the game.

Ultimately you win games by playing the missions in 9th. Crusher Stampede monster will help, as will anything with obsec.

I'm pretty sure 1 obsec model + 10 more non-obsec models will capture an objective over 10 obsec models.

Yeah, once both sides have objective secure it turns into just counting models. Or models and wounds for a crusher stampede list. :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.

You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.

There is a cap on how much CP you can get in a round.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah, once both sides have objective secure it turns into just counting models. Or models and wounds for a crusher stampede list. :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.

You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.

There is a cap on how much CP you can get in a round.

Yes but that can happen at turn 1. You claim that the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.

I have you blocked shogun. So your posts just turn up as compromised. But I thought maiby I am to harsh and checked the remark. And you clearny understand what I am saying, you are just looking to bicker.

Most importantly you do not adress the actual argument that you are paying 1 CP for the relic, and you might not get much out of it before the important turns are over. Especially on an army that eat so much CP as tyranids.

I rather think it will be a long time before I click on the read button on people I ignore. Apolegies to you others.