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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Given the leaks/rumors with CSM and how you can no longer can equip units with options not in the box, does this mean HT with quad devourers will no longer be valid?

It might be so, that is why magnets are your friends. Fortunatly my only glued Big Bug is my winged assassain with Bone Swords. Have only regreted that for a short time, when I wanted the ginormous talons...


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Tac Tortise has some new leaks on Warriors...short form: Melee good shooting not so...need to see the full rules to know. But Rending claws are back! +1 S -4 AP is liget, if cheap. Also Spine fists might be a good "toss onto" choice again, this is more important for Raveners, as I used to toss spine fists onto them back in the day, so it would be nice if they make a come back.

Saw some more leaks. It looks like Toxin glands are usable again, and thus Gorgon might be playable. My hope is any Hive Fleet/Tendril is fully playable.

The codex has been leaked. I think only crusade rules are still missing.

pinecone77 wrote:
Saw some more leaks. It looks like Toxin glands are usable again, and thus Gorgon might be playable. My hope is any Hive Fleet/Tendril is fully playable.

I think so, although if the supplement is still legal then leviathan is still the strongest one by far.

Toxin sacs just straight up being autowound on 6's to hit is awsome. There is even a relic toxin sac that lets you auto-wound on any hit.

Gorgon and Hydra are playable again.

Jormy is still kinda meh, as it benefits an infantry shooting list the most and thats not something we want to base an entire army on. Heavy cover is really only useful on warriors/tyrant guard for instance.

Army wide dense terrain is strong though. Also deepstrike stratagem.

I have to say any purple once (lurk?) can have objective secure monsters. Kraken, leviathan are out. But behenot and most of the others are in!

Leviathan warriors having transhuman is also A+. But when you are T5 is it really that impressive? (Only kidding with all you Tau players!)

Leviathan Warriors with transnid, a 5++ from the Zoanthrope imperative, 5+++ from catalyst, light cover from Broodlord Imperative (use leviathan psychic power), -1S from Maleceptor and -1D from stratagem.

Am I missing any other defensive buff?

Looking at the leak, it looks like Gorgon boosts shooting as well if you have Toxin sacks....that just might make Termagant Devourers useful... Or Spinefists?


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Carnifexen look playable, and Screamer Killers look Good It looks like there will be several winning builds available as most every unit has a use.


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So, thinking of a list.... Swarmy, and three Tyrant Guard two Sabre whip, one scything talons to tank wounds....some Warriors with Hth load, and a Prime as a free slot. Then add some shooting, and some MSU Stealers?

Hard to say, Maybe fill in Screamer-Killers, and a Plasma shooting Big Bug, or a Tyranno with Acid


Battalion: Swarmy, Neuro, Winged Assassin

Zoey x3 Veno x3, Stealer Brood

Warriors, Bone Sabres x4? Or Devourers, and Sabres...?+ Prime (Brood size 6-9) Adrenal Glands

Screamers x6, Tyranno w/Acid

Warriors x3, x2 fills Warriors

Fast Attack?

Pyrovores or Raveners for fast attack, both units are kinda insane.

Hive Fleet; Gorgon


Termagant, x 20 Toxin glands, Devourers
Termagant, x 20 Toxin glands, Devourers

Warriors, x3 Devourer, Scything Toxin Gland
Warriors, x3 Devourer, Scything Toxin gland

Tervigon, Toxin Glands
Winged Tyrant, Scything Toxin gland

Hmmm.....


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Toxicrene? If this is accurate, plenty of fun builds to try out.

Behemoth, Levithan and Jormungandr are looking very strong. Gorgon looks great now that the default gives poison to melee and ranged weapons.

The only subfaction I'm not sold on is Kronos. Gorgon honestly just seems better.

The adaptive traits are super strong. Being able to pick after deployment and knowing who goes first is huge. WLT look strong, a few Relics look strong. Tons of internal balance. The codex is looking like it's going to be a smash hit.

Yes sadly Kronos looks like it took an arrow to the knee... But I'll wait for the Codex before I cry too many tears...

 Tyran wrote:
Pyrovores or Raveners for fast attack, both units are kinda insane.

Morale is a big problem for Raveners. I think there's plenty of good S5-6 melee output in the army that doesn't have to be Synapse babysat to avoid taking morale losses 33+% of the time whenever they lose at least one model.

Trygon Primes can almost keep up with them.

Madjob wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Pyrovores or Raveners for fast attack, both units are kinda insane.

Morale is a big problem for Raveners. I think there's plenty of good S5-6 melee output in the army that doesn't have to be Synapse babysat to avoid taking morale losses 33+% of the time whenever they lose at least one model.

Not a lot of it moves 12".

As for morale, Parasite helps.

Idea: Lictor big BOOM setup.

Use augmented ferocity (hunt Biomorphologie) for +1 charge.

Could use 'shard lure' stratagem for extra d6 charge against enemy unit (hit with shooting attack from a synapse creature)
Lictor pops up and unit(s) of spore mines deepstrike near...
Lictor charge juicy enemy unit with +1 and reroll charge.. (and possible extra d6 from shard lure)
Lictor gets in close combat and use the pheromon trail stratagem (other units get +2 charge against that enemy unit)
spore mines charge with +3 charge and possible extra d6 from shard lure.

Don't know how the are going to update the forgeworld meiotic spores, and how the current spore mine rules work, but could be cool...

EDIT: ah never mind... no charges anymore....

Hey guys, what do you think of this build? I wanted to share it here, rather than in army list section, to discuss tactics and maybe develope it further.

 Tyran wrote:
Leviathan Warriors with transnid, a 5++ from the Zoanthrope imperative, 5+++ from catalyst, light cover from Broodlord Imperative (use leviathan psychic power), -1S from Maleceptor and -1D from stratagem.

Am I missing any other defensive buff?

I think venom thropes aura might be in there somewhere.

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, what do you think of this build? I wanted to share it here, rather than in army list section, to discuss tactics and maybe develope it further.

Spoiler:

Hive fleet leviathan battalion
-hq- hive tyrant (lashwhip and bonesword, heavy venom cannon) 175 (warlord: adaptive biology, additional trait: swarm leader, relic: adaptive neural lobe, power: catalyst, psychic scream)
-hq- tervigon (massive talons) 215 (power: onslaught)
-hq- tervigon (massive talons) 215 (power: onslaught)
-troop- termagants (30, fleshborers) 210
-troop- termagants (30, fleshborers) 210
-troop- warriors (9, dual swords, deathspitters, 3x venom cannon, adrenal glands) 255
-elite- zoanthropes (3) 150 (power: hive nexus)
-elite- lictor 70
-elite- lictor 70
-fast- parasite of mortrex 80
-fast- rippers (3) 45
-fast- rippers (3) 45
-heavy- biovore 45
-heavy- biovore 45
-heavy- exocrine 170

Total 2000 pts / 12cp (-1 for extra trait)

Secondaries:
- behind enemy lines (lictors)
- deploy teleport homer (lictors)
- psychic interrogation (tervigons)

Tactics:
Biovores and rippers deploy on home objectives, lictors deep strike behind enemy lines and do some action. Tervigons and termagants advance in flanks and provide firesupport. Warriors, zoanthropes, exocrine and tyrant deploy at the middle and move midfield. The parasite of mortrex is a distraction unit.

I've got psychic imperative for every turn to use, my plan is to use zoanthrope's warp shielding, if I go second, and tervigon's movement boost if I go first.

CP allocation (17 during the course of game)
- 1 for extra trait
- 5x1 for endless swarm (every turn, bring back 3+d3 gaunts)
- 5x1 for relentless flurry (every turn, exploding sixes when shooting)
- 5x1 for additional cast (every turn, zoanthropes cast hive nexus and smite)
- 1 reserved for void in the warp (deny on 4+)
- extras generated by relic can be used for rerolls

I think the damage output is pretty low. Against soft enemy armylists you could simply win the mission but any decent shooting list can take you out fairy quick. Tyranids got some tough units now but the cannot walk slowly towards the enemy for 3 turns.

Hey, thanks for the reply, I mostly play with my friend who does not field much of the shooting, but I usually try to make lists competitive, so I could see the point of that. The fleshborers are now more leathal, at 18" s5 ap-1, so I think they pose a decent threat to even knights. It may require more playtesting on their performance.

Okay, I'am going for a weird armylist!

2000P JORMUNGANDR
Adaptive: Naturalised Camouflage
CP: 5

PATROL:

HQ: flying hive tyrant (Bonesword and whip, adrenal glands) - Ymgarl factor (relic) WL: Adaptive biology (feel no pain 5+)
HQ: Malanthrope

TR: 3 warriors

EL: 5 Tyrant Guard
EL: Maleceptor

PATROL:
HQ: flying hive tyrant (Bonesword and whip, adrenal glands) - The reaper of obliterax (relic)
HQ: Broodlord

TR: 10 termagaunts

EL: 5 Tyrant Guard

PATROL:
HQ: flying hive tyrant (Monsterous scything talons, toxin sacs) - Scythes of tyran (relic) Extra WLT: Alien Cunning

TR: 10 termagaunts

EL: 5 Tyrant Guard

TR: Tyrannocyte + 5x Barbed Stranglers +Synaptic enhancement

TACTICS:

A blob of 2 tyrant guard units with hive tyrants, maleceptor, malanthrope and broodlord deploy mid field - deployment zone. Deploy the tyrant guard in light cover and activate broodlord synaptic imperative the got the following:

Jormungandr adaptation: count as dense cover outside 12 inch (-1 to hit)
extra adaptive: extra +1 save in cover
Broodlord synaptic imperative: light cover counts as heavy cover (+1 save in melee)
Keep them close to the malanthrope (-1 to hit)
First turn: Maleceptor possible -1 Strenght against shooting

So these tyrant guard got a 2+ save with 2 bonus saves. Who needs invulnerable saves! Don't know if the extra -1 to hit from the malanthrope is worth it but maybe it could work against Tau armies. -2 to hit with a +1 to hit from markerlights remains a -1 to hit.

First turn I can drop a Tyrannocyte with 5 tyrant guard mid field and cast the catalyst on them. The Hive tyrants fly towards these tyrant guards for protection and get ready for the next turn for an all out assault.

Possible moves:

boomerang Hive tyrant: fly towards the enemy, kill everything and use the 'Overrun stratagem' to move back towards the tyrant guard for protection.

Tyrannocyte: this is a synaptic creature and can shoot at a target. 'Shard lure' stratagem give any tyranid unit +d6 charge (pick the two highest) against that enemy unit.

The reaper of obliterax is sick!: Every wound is a +1 mortal wound and every attack allocated to a enemy unit cannot prevent wounds.
With lashwhip (reroll 1 to hit), Pincer Tail (reroll 1 hit or wound) and extra stratagem upgrades (+d3 attacks, reroll to wound, extra mortal wounds after charging...) this kills stuff!

I don't think that you can claim that the mortal wounds are also attacks/wounds that cannot get prevented. If this is the case then this model can remove 3 custodus bikes in one go!

Possible strategy: I might drop the scythes of tyran and go for the 'Dirgeheart of kharis' relic. I could pick territorial instinct adeptive and make monsterous creatures objective secured and with the relic I can switch off objective secured on a enemy unit (in close combat). This way I could keep scoring the objectives if I encounter armylist that really go for the objectives and try to ignore my units.

I have to give this a try!

EDIT: switched the WLT to another model
EDIT 2: corrected the heavy cover save bonus

Three bonus saves? You're maxing at +2 from ranged attacks when in a light cover terrain feature, and +2 from melee attacks when in light cover with the Broodlord imperative active or in actual hard cover.

Madjob wrote:
Three bonus saves? You're maxing at +2 from ranged attacks when in a light cover terrain feature, and +2 from melee attacks when in light cover with the Broodlord imperative active or in actual hard cover.

Ah thats right! Never played a lot with heavy cover and always thought that it was a +1 save against shooting. But a +2 save in close combat is also good! Thanks!

Is everyone else going to proxy their now useless hive guard as tyrant guard?

dreadlybrew wrote:
Is everyone else going to proxy their now useless hive guard as tyrant guard?

I think “useless” is a bit harsh. ”not broken” is more in line. IMHO.

I’ve got a unit of them, and feel they will still have a place in my swarm.

If Leviathan supplement is still a thing, Hive Guard are still among the best things we can put the Chapter Master warlord trait (as it isn't Core locked).

Still, I would replace impaler cannons with shockcannons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Trygon Primes can almost keep up with them.

Pricey. Maybe Shrikes/Paracytes will be an answer? Also you can make a Ravener Synapse can't you?

pinecone77 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Trygon Primes can almost keep up with them.

Pricey. Maybe Shrikes/Paracytes will be an answer? Also you can make a Ravener Synapse can't you?

No, Adaptive Physiologies only can be bought on (non Character and non Titanic) Monsters.
Parasites are probably the best option for leading Raveners.

Or deepstriking Synapse, that could work too.

dreadlybrew wrote:Is everyone else going to proxy their now useless hive guard as tyrant guard?

I was initially disappointed by the nerfs, but one of my brothers pointed out they are still a slightly tougher gravis equivalent with a Druhkari disintegrator or better haywire blaster, so mine will probably still see use (if anything, might be able to see more use - my gaming group does not like Hive Guard so I have been using Exocrines instead).Their unique action to take up defensive positions to count as extra models for objectives has me a bit intrigued. In theory they will probably be rear midfield most of the time, so being able to count as 2-12 models (with option for objective secured via Leviathan) should make it harder to contest points they are guarding.

Incidentally, the move to heavy support will be a bit better for my "for fun" end-stage feeder swarm. Almost all of the organisms for the consumption/assimilation phase were in elites so it made it hard to include Hive Guard along with everything else (admittedly, the change to Rippers hurt, but it was generally using a Vanguard detachment anyway). Being in the heavy support slot eases a bit of competition for slots at least.

I think the Hive guard are just just expensive right now. If the Impaler didn't cost points, I'd consider it. Right now I think the Exocrene just does both verisons of Hive guards Job better, on a better platform.

They're not useless and with the statline bump it would just take some points costing changes to have them seen again. But the points + Nerfs to the impaler cannon seem to have been too much.

That being said, it and genestealers are really the only things I don't like in the new dex. I have so many options now I'm okay with Hive guard being nerfed.

I'm trying to decide if going a double patrol is worth it for 2 Hive Tyrants. My gut feeling right now is No, but having a walking and flying hive Tyrant is so incredibly good.