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svknoe wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Make those spread sheets. If you can write up a little thing to explain what its about and pm it to me as a little tutorial on it il add it to the first post. By monday i intend to have the first post reformatted to have a unit break down and data like this on it.

I have already made a comprehensive spreadsheet that is publicly available. It is an updated version of the one that produced the images above. I have not yet put the new codex rules into the sheet, but that should not be too hard to do. There is an input guide explaining how to use special rules such as rerolls and rending. Here it is:

https://github.com/svknoe/WH40k-Point-Efficiency-Calculator

I don't mean to detract from Traceoftoxins excellent work, but it might be easier to use this spreadsheet rather than writing a new one from scratch.

It was more his excellent breakdown of our anti tank options. The spread sheet on it's own can be a bit overwhelming But if he has the spread sheet with a little write up explaining what our options are and see whos best, especially because we lack a lot of the really high str stuff, it could go a long way towards helping any new guys.

Has anyone noticed you cannot buy Tyranid warriors anymore (outside of the last chance to buy get started box)? Seems very odd. I have already painted my first 50 PL of tyranids in Leviathan and warriors seem well positioned with a 4+/6++ FNP for that hive fleet.

CDShaddock wrote:
Has anyone noticed you cannot buy Tyranid warriors anymore (outside of the last chance to buy get started box)? Seems very odd. I have already painted my first 50 PL of tyranids in Leviathan and warriors seem well positioned with a 4+/6++ FNP for that hive fleet.

It's a combination of their systematic reboxing everything in 8th ed packaging and their production capabilities not meeting demand.

It's also regional - GW UK has most Tyranid things in stock; but no guard its. Same for all armies at present' GW is simply beyond its current global production capabilities - which is good news because it means stuff is selling great.

Check ebay, local GW stores and 3rd parties as they might very well have stock.

So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts

Maybe this has been discussed before and I'm probably late to the party, but...

3+ BS carnifex with two twin brain leech devourers put out 24 S6 shots at 18" (16 hits on average) for something like... 105 points according to the miniwargaming review?

Pardon my French, but what the bloody hell? This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost? And doesn't blow ass in combat.

If these points are anywhere near accurate, that's downright criminal. That's close to what a chimera costs haha.

Maybe I'm overreacting.. but I dunno, man. I know guard stuff is powerful, but they pay out the ass for it. A standard tank commander is like 213 points.

I guess it's Tyranids' turn in the spotlight.

Timeshadow wrote:
So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts

I am thinking warriors could be good. I was basing them on some of shuppets lists. Both him and mee have been ceen on warriors for a while.

After abandoning thoughts on the venom cannon, 20 points on to much, there is really no reason not to grab a barbed strangler on ever 3rd warrior. Statistikly they could be an anomalety on certain bad rolls. But They could also go high. +1 to hit vs 10 or more, pluss the extra 12" is just very good.

warriors needed a buff more than anything in the codex and they didn't get it. They are fun to play with and with strategems and a prime they will do fine in most games - there is almost no reason not to take termagants over them - they benefit more from their strategems and have more firepower and wounds per point.

Warriors will still have a place in my list as synapse babysitters for my exocrine and hive guard. Dual boneswords and deathspitters in a troop slot is a nasty surprise for anyone trying to tie up my backfield. And if an opponent focuses them down whatevs, that's just less fire at my scary CC units.

 buddha wrote:
Warriors will still have a place in my list as synapse babysitters for my exocrine and hive guard. Dual boneswords and deathspitters in a troop slot is a nasty surprise for anyone trying to tie up my backfield. And if an opponent focuses them down whatevs, that's just less fire at my scary CC units.

24" range to shut off IB means you shouldn't need babysitters for your fire support any more.

I don't see how Termagants are better than Warriors. Warriors have better melee weapon, an option for anti-tank weapon, synapse and are tougher against small arms.

The only thing Termagants do better is anti-infantry firepower when equipped with devourers.

I have painted my units in leviathan, so I am looking for that 6+++.

I think zoanthropes, tyrant and cheap bodies will be taking advantage of the 6+++.

Warriors with 24/36 range in cover will be 3+ 6+++. Awsome.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Maybe this has been discussed before and I'm probably late to the party, but...

3+ BS carnifex with two twin brain leech devourers put out 24 S6 shots at 18" (16 hits on average) for something like... 105 points according to the miniwargaming review?

Pardon my French, but what the bloody hell? This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost? And doesn't blow ass in combat.

If these points are anywhere near accurate, that's downright criminal. That's close to what a chimera costs haha.

Maybe I'm overreacting.. but I dunno, man. I know guard stuff is powerful, but they pay out the ass for it. A standard tank commander is like 213 points.

I guess it's Tyranids' turn in the spotlight.

Did you just compare a carnie to a Hellhound?

I was all about warriors and shrikes before. But now i know im going jorm and that means im all about them raveners now. Ive got 4 kits on order. Either 2 blobs of 6 or 3 blobs of 4/5 is my current plan.

And i have a hydracast red terror i thought i would never use. Now it just might get to shine.

Can somebody tell me the stats on the new venom cannon and heavy venom cannon? I have seen confliction information all over the place, and I don't know who has a good source, who is wrong, and who is right.

 Niiai wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts

I am thinking warriors could be good. I was basing them on some of shuppets lists. Both him and mee have been ceen on warriors for a while.

After abandoning thoughts on the venom cannon, 20 points on to much, there is really no reason not to grab a barbed strangler on ever 3rd warrior. Statistikly they could be an anomalety on certain bad rolls. But They could also go high. +1 to hit vs 10 or more, pluss the extra 12" is just very good.

It's my favorite way to build them...I don't bother with magnets on Warriors so they mostly have the same "loadout" Rendin x3, Deathspitter x2, Strangle for each three. I also have a bunch with Devourers, Rending x2,,one strangle, and one set of Bonesabre per three.

xmbk wrote:
Did you just compare a carnie to a Hellhound?

Yeah?... Considering the weapons and cost are very similar, and presumably you're buying a dakkafex for, you know, the dakka.

 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody tell me the stats on the new venom cannon and heavy venom cannon? I have seen confliction information all over the place, and I don't know who has a good source, who is wrong, and who is right.

Venom cannon is s8, AP -2 Dd3, 20 pts
HVC is S9, AP-2 D3, 25 pts

ThePorcupine wrote:

This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost?

To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost?

To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.

Taurox Prime is best comparison.

Taurox Prime T6, W10, BS3/4/5, Sv 3+, 14"/10"/6", 24" guns
Heavy 20 S4 AP0 D1
Heavy 8 S4 AP-2 D1
Rapid fire 2 S4 AP0 D1

97 pts

Carnifex at 115 is more durable (T7, -1 to hit), no degradation, slower with less range, not completely useless in combat. My inclination (without doing the math) is that against T7 (Since they both wound on 5s there) the taurox does more damage, but every other target the devourers should be better.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.

Barebones Punisher is 150 points 43 BS4 shots (assuming moving 4.5 inches). 21 hits.
Carnifex in above example is 105 points, presumably. 16 hits.

The math actually comes out very close hits per points. You are correct. The thing is basically a grinding advance punisher with 24% less firepower but costs 30% less.

I guess it's a combination of shock that a melee horde army got basically a slightly better copy of one of the best shooting units in the game, and that, even after the buff, the hellhound falls quite short.

Every list I make starts out at like 3k because there are so many things I want to include!!!




EDIT: I'm still not convinced that we can deal with IG because I think they still have too many screening bodies. Our shooting from the Exocrine and the Hive Guard is really nice though. I'm very excited to try so many things out. Never thought the Nad version of Kan wall would EVER be viable again and I have never been happier to be wrong.

With Kronos we are the scissors to eldars paper. The problem is guard seems to be the rock to our scissors. I'm feeling like we need a good mix of gribbles to tie tanks and screens up and heavy hitters to get through all those T7-8 tank wounds to have a chance against guard.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.

Barebones Punisher is 150 points 43 BS4 shots (assuming moving 4.5 inches). 21 hits.
Carnifex in above example is 105 points, presumably. 16 hits.

The math actually comes out very close hits per points. You are correct. The thing is basically a grinding advance punisher with 24% less firepower but costs 30% less.

I guess it's a combination of shock that a melee horde army got basically a slightly better copy of one of the best shooting units in the game, and that, even after the buff, the hellhound falls quite short.

I would not call tyranids a mellee horde army. Mind you I only played 5th and 6th edition. 5th edition mellee horde just died to parking lots. Only scratching the paint. Carnifex where over prised. Everything attacked at I1 because of the terrible terain rules. The hive guards where the only help in 5th edition.

6th edition was the age of flyers. 3 twin linked lascannon vendateas every where that melee hordes can not scratch.

Perhaps melee hordes where good in 7th edition. But we have not been a melee horde army for a long time. We have good shooting on units that happen to be ok in melee. 8th edition have so far opened up for more versatile armies. Maiby even melee hordes can make a combat. But that is not how I would describe tyranids. Never leave jole without hive guards.

Hive guard is actually the unit that I'm waffling over whether or not to include. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm pretty sure that I can focus exclusively on weapons that kill screening units (dakka flyrants and/or dakka fexes) and then pod in swarmy to move a unit of Kraken stealers in to do some horrible horrible things. And then do the same thing on turn 2 and or turn 3.

I'm just not sure I can clear enough screening models to make this work.

 luke1705 wrote:
Hive guard is actually the unit that I'm waffling over whether or not to include. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm pretty sure that I can focus exclusively on weapons that kill screening units (dakka flyrants and/or dakka fexes) and then pod in swarmy to move a unit of Kraken stealers in to do some horrible horrible things. And then do the same thing on turn 2 and or turn 3.

I'm just not sure I can clear enough screening models to make this work.

Perosnally I just think the 'shoot twice' stratgem is to good to not have a unit to use it on. In can only be used on infantery. If you need to kill something big and fatt that stratagem + hiveguards sounds good.

A full unit of devilgants with the shoot twice stratagem should do a nice amount of damage to fodder, and we have plenty of ways to deliver that to the enemy.

Another option is to go crazy with big monsters with a list full of Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.

Something I've goofing around with...mostly because I like the name...


Hail Hydra! Hive Fleet Hydra

HQ: Tervigons x2, one is Warlord (Regen)
HQ: Nuerothrope

Troops, Termagantsx20, x3
Troops: Hormagauntsx25, x2
Troops: Rippers

FA: Gargoyles x10, x3

Elites...Lictors x3?

Heavy: Carnifexen? Mawlocs?

Then take a Supreme Command or Spearhead etc Maybe x3 Hive Tyrants? And some Tyrant Guards? I think I'd want three Winged, kitted for both shooting, and CC.

Hydras "thing" is outnumber in the fight phase, so mass advance, then charge....as simple as it comes.

Tyran wrote:
A full unit of devilgants with the shoot twice stratagem should do a nice amount of damage to fodder, and we have plenty of ways to deliver that to the enemy.

Another option is to go crazy with big monsters with a list full of Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.

Actually I really like the devil gant idea. I didn’t run the numbers before because they died to an Alpha strike and delivery methods were too expensive, but now we can just jormungdr them and then....ravener or lictor them into place right? That seems pretty solid. It’s actually our single best anti infantry unit for just piling on wounds. Heck, even just throwing wounds onto Magnus or Mortarion is no joke. Morty takes 7-8 wounds on average (that’s how many FNP he fails, I mean). Even at -1 to hit, he’s looking at 5 failed FNP. Magnus takes 7 wounds even with his invuln increased and the assumed 6+ FNP warlord trait. Magnus with 3++ re-rolling 1’s and a changeling nearby is 4.5 failed FNP.

Like I’m really not mad at that output.

Is there any way to put them into reserves except for Jormungdr or a Trygon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops I did my math wrong. Was re-rolling 1’s to hit, not to wound. I think it’s a little worse but it’s in that same ballpark I think (+/- like 1 wound)

I am thinking a big warrior unit with dearhspittersx6 and venom cannons x3 all rending claws is 288pts add a prime say 112 ish is 400 even. Thats 21(inc prime) deathspitter shots and 3d3 venom cannon shots that can have the shoot twice start cast on them. It's pricy but looks like it could be very effective. Oh and if they are kronos reroll 1s not too bad.