Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

tneva82 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
He's saying buy a ten-man squad to get 2 cannons, then combat squad as you see fit. Pretty smort. Noice.

What benefit it has over 2 squads of 5? At least tacticals etc it's better to have more for easier command points and sergeant gear. Termies have reason to take big squad?

Simple, after combat attaching, you get the 2 hvy weapon in one sqd as support and can reserve the other one for assault duties if equipped appropriately.

Let's say sqd of 10 termies.....2 Plasma Cannons (or whatever you want), Sgt with SB/PS, 2 SB/PF, 2 TH/SS, 2 LC, 1 SB/CF. Combat attach these so the 2 plascannons and SB/PF and sgt are support, then send the TH/SS, LC and chainfist into assault.

yeah but as was said, it makes it a bit tougher to get command points taking 10 man DW squads, on top of the fact that if your taking CC terms, Knights should be the only ones you take. TH/SS/LC standard terms don't hold a candle to knights.

bobafett012 wrote:
yeah but as was said, it makes it a bit tougher to get command points taking 10 man DW squads, on top of the fact that if your taking CC terms, Knights should be the only ones you take. TH/SS/LC standard terms don't hold a candle to knights.

All the benefits of TH/SS none of the loses, love them Knights

Although, you can't mount a rack of cyclone missiles to the top of a Knight.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Although, you can't mount a rack of cyclone missiles to the top of a Knight.

Clearly, but It was suggested to run a 10 man terminator squad, with 2 plasma cannons (or whatever you fancy), 3 shooty terms, and 5 CC terms and combat squad them to get both heavy weapons in the same group. For many reasons i think you'd just be better off with Knights and squads of regular terms. TH/SS terms aren't nearly what they once were. No +1 attack on the charge, TH are unwieldly now, all squads can split fire now, easier to get more CPs with smaller squads. The only real benefit i see is if you only want to run 2 squads, this allows you to get 2 heavy weapons and CC terms with only having to purchase 10 terms, where as my way requires 15 terms. Then again, I play DW, so I have a whole army list of DW to fill so.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Although, you can't mount a rack of cyclone missiles to the top of a Knight.

This would be a good change tbh.

LEJ wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Although, you can't mount a rack of cyclone missiles to the top of a Knight.

This would be a good change tbh.

Nah, not really. Shooting stuff isn't their job, getting in the enemy's face and beating it in is their job.

Why are people talking about Terminator plasma cannons...

Devastators can pack 4 plasma cannons in a 5 man squad with a cheaper base price, 1 model at BS5 and cheap ablative wounds.

4 of those in a squad with rerollable 1's and 36 inch range. 2 wound damage with D3 heavy. And you can even overwatch them now. Plus a plasma cannon in every dark vengeance kit. Ebay. 2 easy.

And god forbid you have to move them 6" and fire at BS3 for a turn oh noooo.

Termies dont even get relentless any more or rerolls on DS. Why even bother lol.

I cant even believe this chapter tactic isnt a joke.

With terminators with TH/SS already being oppressively expensive I'm not sure the benefit of strapping a high point cost missile launcher to them.

 TedNugent wrote:


I cant even believe this chapter tactic isnt a joke.

Why? Its a free shooting benefit and a mitigation for extreme rolls on morale. I'd be willing to argue the BA one is better, but this is still better than most of the traitor or loyalist chapter/legion tactics.

No, I'm saying its a little over the top. Like I'm saying it makes it too easy to double the damage output of stationary plasma units.

I was already making plasma cannon devs. Now this is a lock. I'm buying more plasma cannons.

 TedNugent wrote:
No, I'm saying its a little over the top. Like I'm saying it makes it too easy to double the damage output of stationary plasma units.

I was already making plasma cannon devs. Now this is a lock. I'm buying more plasma cannons.

Over the top?!? It's worthless for 2/3rds of the army. Ravenwing never just sit still and fire, that's kind of the whole point of them, mobility, and Deathwing, at least my deathwing, are DSing in, counts as moving, and usually moving forward every turn to either get into CC, or walking away from dangerous CC units.

Is it good for Greenwing, Azreal parking lot lists? sure, i certainly hope that's not what our army lists devolve into as it's a shame because we have essentially 3 unique armies in 1. If GW hasn't realized this yet and really devised a "chapter tactic" for each wing, then the other 2 wings are going to be lacking pretty heavily imo.

bobafett012 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
No, I'm saying its a little over the top. Like I'm saying it makes it too easy to double the damage output of stationary plasma units.

I was already making plasma cannon devs. Now this is a lock. I'm buying more plasma cannons.

Over the top?!? It's worthless for 2/3rds of the army. Ravenwing never just sit still and fire, that's kind of the whole point of them, mobility, and Deathwing, at least my deathwing, are DSing in, counts as moving, and usually moving forward every turn to either get into CC, or walking away from dangerous CC units.

Is it good for Greenwing, Azreal parking lot lists? sure, i certainly hope that's not what our army lists devolve into as it's a shame because we have essentially 3 unique armies in 1. If GW hasn't realized this yet and really devised a "chapter tactic" for each wing, then the other 2 wings are going to be lacking pretty heavily imo.

That's another reason why I dont really like the rule and one reason why I think using it on Terminators is silly. You're automatically forfeiting it by attempting an assault, deep strike or run. Seems 100% contrary to RW and DW units.

I'm automatically min-maxing in my head, and this is useless for Ravenwing and DW. To be fair, if you were using Azrael you could already reroll 1's.

Maybe a Primaris Lt would be better with these rules.

But seriously this rule makes 4 plasma cannon devs pretty compaeatively efficient in terms of raw damage output at 36".

has anyone seen the dice coming out?

I am hoping for simplicity with the dice. I bought fire dragon and swooping hawks because you could actually use them and read the pips.

Deathguard were a cool idea but not practical.

Give me plasma fire on the 1’s and DA symbol on the 6 and call it good.

So no Lion?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So no Lion?

Not in 2017.

I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.

Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.

Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.

Kronos is considered a top fleet because of it's warlord trait and stratagem. The HFA has little to do with it, it's a nice little bonus, but nothing more.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.

Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.

I disagree with your BA take. BA are my second army and their CT can absolutely be relevant to non CC units as well. The fact that it's turned on when they GET charged as well allows your backfield objective holders to be able to hold their own if charged because they often are the targets of opponents assault elements. Intercessors have 2 attacks base, and would wound on 3's. that's not too bad if they absolutely must get into CC.

I couldn't disagree more about grim resolve. It's literally non existent for my Deathwing army, it's non existent for peoples Ravenwing armies, and it's non existent for RW/DW mixed army. Even if you play all 3 wings, possibly only 1/3rd of your army is even taking advantage of it and, as was pointed out above, if your running Azreal, it's pretty much useless because your greenwing units are likely around Azrael for full re-rolls. It's absolutely not top 3 in my opinion. I would easily rank half or more of the SM CTs ahead of this one. I would go so far as to say this is an example of the opposite of power creep. But this is just my opinion, and maybe i'm in the minority.

bobafett012 wrote:


I disagree with your BA take. BA are my second army and their CT can absolutely be relevant to non CC units as well. The fact that it's turned on when they GET charged as well allows your backfield objective holders to be able to hold their own if charged because they often are the targets of opponents assault elements. Intercessors have 2 attacks base, and would wound on 3's. that's not too bad if they absolutely must get into CC.

I couldn't disagree more about grim resolve. It's literally non existent for my Deathwing army, it's non existent for peoples Ravenwing armies, and it's non existent for RW/DW mixed army. Even if you play all 3 wings, possibly only 1/3rd of your army is even taking advantage of it and, as was pointed out above, if your running Azreal, it's pretty much useless because your greenwing units are likely around Azrael for full re-rolls. It's absolutely not top 3 in my opinion. I would easily rank half or more of the SM CTs ahead of this one. I would go so far as to say this is an example of the opposite of power creep. But this is just my opinion, and maybe i'm in the minority.

That seems internally contradicting.

Of course the BA trait "can" be relevant for backfield units in some circumstances, but so "can" Grim Resolve be relevant for Terminators or Bikes if they don't move.

The latter will probably happen more often than the former actually, given 8th Edition's emphasis on shooting AND will be more game relevant when it happens as Plasmatalons or Terminators with Heavy Weapons re-rolling 1s (occasionally) will have a far bigger impact on the game than Blood Angels Devastators getting a +1 to wound when they try to clobber Berzerkers or Genestealers that made it into the back lines with their Lascannons.

If you consider Grim Resolve "practically" non-existent for Deathwing/Ravenwing, than the BA trait is equally "practically" non-existent for every BA unit mainly using a shooty weapon. If you wanna count the technicality that even Devastators might get stuck in cc, you have to equally account for the (far more likely) technicality of Terminators or Bikes not moving once in a while (e.g. sitting on an objective or simply having teleported into a good firing position).


It's probably almost impossible to play a game and not get a use out of Grim Resolve somewhere in the game, unless you're actively trying. Stuff like Ultrarmarines usually isn't even used in 3 out of 4 games you play, given the Guard/Ad-Cawl-Mech/Smite-spam/Alaitoc meta these days.

Retrogamer0001 wrote:So no Lion?

axisofentropy wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So no Lion?

Not in 2017.

Pretty much this. The in the Podcast that FLG put up today they mentioned the updated fluff and basically said it heavily hinted at his coming back. Though, he is not in the book.

If Wolves don't get Russ back in their book first, sometime in the Spring, I would imagine its the Lion that's the next Primarch release.

And if the Brits have a nod to the past in them at all, my conspiracy guess would be it coincides with the death of Richard the First "The Lion Heart" on April 6th. Which happens to be a Friday in 2018 and perfect for their normal release schedule.

Coincidentally (or maybe not) If the Ultramarines are Roman in their design (names etc), Gulliman was release in March. Caesar was of course assassinated March 15th.

So let the conspiracy flow!

 Marius Xerxes wrote:


And if the Brits have a nod to the past in them at all, my conspiracy guess would be it coincides with the death of Richard the First "The Lion Heart" on April 6th. Which happens to be a Friday in 2018 and perfect for their normal release schedule.

Coincidentally (or maybe not) If the Ultramarines are Roman in their design (names etc), Gulliman was release in March. Caesar was of course assassinated March 15th.

So let the conspiracy flow!

If this level of planning actually does go into the release, i will be happily astounded and, a little proud i guess!

Sunny Side Up wrote:


Of course the BA trait "can" be relevant for backfield units in some circumstances, but so "can" Grim Resolve be relevant for Terminators or Bikes if they don't move.

The latter will probably happen more often than the former actually, given 8th Edition's emphasis on shooting AND will be more game relevant when it happens as Plasmatalons or Terminators with Heavy Weapons re-rolling 1s (occasionally) will have a far bigger impact on the game than Blood Angels Devastators getting a +1 to wound when they try to clobber Berzerkers or Genestealers that made it into the back lines with their Lascannons.

If you consider Grim Resolve "practically" non-existent for Deathwing/Ravenwing, than the BA trait is equally "practically" non-existent for every BA unit mainly using a shooty weapon. If you wanna count the technicality that even Devastators might get stuck in cc, you have to equally account for the (far more likely) technicality of Terminators or Bikes not moving once in a while (e.g. sitting on an objective or simply having teleported into a good firing position).


It's probably almost impossible to play a game and not get a use out of Grim Resolve somewhere in the game, unless you're actively trying. Stuff like Ultrarmarines usually isn't even used in 3 out of 4 games you play, given the Guard/Ad-Cawl-Mech/Smite-spam/Alaitoc meta these days.

BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.


I'm not saying you will never utilize it, even in RW/DW, but just thinking back on my past 6 games, there has only been a couple occasions where my terms sat still, and guess what, they were either near Azreal or Belial making the ability %100 useless, and the morale part also useless, at least it was because DW were immune to morale. What do people do with Ravenwing? run them in groups next to Sammael because re-rolling ALL misses is better than just re-rolling 1's not to mention the fact that Belial, Sammael, and Azreal are all really good in their own right.

It's just not a very powerful CT at all imo. We can agree to disagree but, i haven't seen too many people that think it's a good CT after you stop and think about the 2/3rds of the army that is usually on the move, and the fact that ALL 3 of the "wings" HQs allow total re-rolls already. It's redundant.

It means you don't have to cluster up in aura bubbles, but that's it. Azrael/Belial already do the ChapTac but better, as noted. I'm holding out for some nice useful Stratagems before I pass judgement, but it hardly rewards daring mobile/teleporter assaults that the Wings want to be doing. I don't wanna play gunline... I have Guard for that. On the plus side I may get to field my Plasma Cannons.

bobafett012 wrote:


BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.

Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:


BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.

Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.

Yeah. Too bad people seem to forget that at the end of it BA&DA are still mostly codex adherent army. Tacticals are still core of BA and tacticals aren't CC monsters.

tneva82 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:


BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.

Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.

Yeah. Too bad people seem to forget that at the end of it BA&DA are still mostly codex adherent army. Tacticals are still core of BA and tacticals aren't CC monsters.

Yeah. Too bad people forget fluff =/= collecting. This is like those posts where someone complains about a White Scars army being all bikes, Custodes simply existing, someone having collected Deathwing Knights (that are CC). Lording fluff over people is silly when crunch and model ranges don't always match it.

If you complain about someone with a Deathwing army wanting viable CC, why aren't you kicking off that the Ultramarines Codex now seems to read "Though Shalt Spam Razorbacks", or that every third army contains a Primarch?

Just let people collect what they want and air their gripes. People are allowed to be disappointed in a disappointing Chapter Tactic. Telling them "you should have different models to fit my view of your fluff" is just silly.

Even though I currently play RW I think that GR is a mid tier trait. It's got it's uses but is not overwhelming. The morale part is mostly a non issue as nobody takes 10 man sqds anymore. It's all 5 man tac, dev, etc.

If my RW decide to go mixed wing then it's actually better as I don't want to invest in a character to babysit backfield units as they will be up front with my bikes. A dev, scout or helblaster sqd holding back objectives will not be accompanied by a character so will benefit from the reroll 1s.

 bullyboy wrote:
Even though I currently play RW I think that GR is a mid tier trait. It's got it's uses but is not overwhelming. The morale part is mostly a non issue as nobody takes 10 man sqds anymore. It's all 5 man tac, dev, etc.

If my RW decide to go mixed wing then it's actually better as I don't want to invest in a character to babysit backfield units as they will be up front with my bikes. A dev, scout or helblaster sqd holding back objectives will not be accompanied by a character so will benefit from the reroll 1s.

Yeah it is more flexible for deployment which is nice, can spread out and not suffer much in losing reroll ability.