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Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.

The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.

...lol?
Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.

I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.

... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?

Absolutely sure I posted in the right thread. You came in talking about "for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards".

You wanted them over Guards when Commissars weren't hot garbage. Because of whiners like you, Commissars are trash and Conscripts are overpriced trash.

If you couldn't figure out the snark from the post, that's on you--but don't pretend you do not know why people are complaining about Conscripts being priced the same as Guardsmen. It's disingenuous especially as I know you have had multiple people attempt to explain it to you in the various threads surrounding the AM FAQ and the CA changes.

Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say the people who see trash like Iyanden, Tyranids, and now Dark Angels getting the exact same ability that Commissars had pre-nerf and feel slighted by the fact that now Conscripts are overpriced trash and Commissars are left garbage-tier?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.

The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.

...lol?
Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.

I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.

... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?

Absolutely sure I posted in the right thread. You came in talking about "for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards".

You wanted them over Guards when Commissars weren't hot garbage. Because of whiners like you, Commissars are trash and Conscripts are overpriced trash.

If you couldn't figure out the snark from the post, that's on you--but don't pretend you do not know why people are complaining about Conscripts being priced the same as Guardsmen. It's disingenuous especially as I know you have had multiple people attempt to explain it to you in the various threads surrounding the AM FAQ and the CA changes.

Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say the people who see trash like Iyanden, Tyranids, and now Dark Angels getting the exact same ability that Commissars had pre-nerf and feel slighted by the fact that now Conscripts are overpriced trash and Commissars are left garbage-tier?

Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.

I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!

MilkmanAl wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.

I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!

There is a youtube video that will give you the whole codex.

Yeah, I watched it for the strategems. Haven't had an hour and a half to watch the whole thing just yet.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
"His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when GW need to annualise a previous Primarch sales spike to appease the Shareholders..."

You must be a Watcher in the Dark stationed in Nottingham!

Spoletta wrote:

Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...

I'm pretty calm. Don't make disingenuous comments denigrating other armies when you know you're wrong and we'll be just fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...

I'm pretty calm. Don't make disingenuous comments denigrating other armies when you know you're wrong and we'll be just fine.

Get a clue man.
We were talking about one situation where conscripts actually fare better than guards and you dropped down on me like [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] on heresy! Chill down, no one is attacking you or your army! If you want join the discussion in a civil manner.

Thanks.

How sad it was that there's no Thunderfire Cannons in 'dex, or Centurions. Otherwise I'm waiting for the codex to come, Ravenwing seems absolute beast now

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...

I'm pretty calm. Don't make disingenuous comments denigrating other armies when you know you're wrong and we'll be just fine.

Get a clue man.
We were talking about one situation where conscripts actually fare better than guards and you dropped down on me like [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] on heresy! Chill down, no one is attacking you or your army! If you want join the discussion in a civil manner.

Thanks.

I "dropped down on you" because the Conscript unit in that situation is going to evaporate. There's no "screening" or whatever nonsense you want to pretend exists.

And quite frankly, the only person not being civil is yourself.

 Kanluwen wrote:
/quote]
I "dropped down on you" because the Conscript unit in that situation is going to evaporate. There's no "screening" or whatever nonsense you want to pretend exists.

And quite frankly, the only person not being civil is yourself.

I'll let the world be the judge of who is being rude here, not interested in this off topic.

So, you want to say that conscripts won't be good in that situtation. That's fine, but you should present some arguments for that.

My argument, is that since morale phase comes after assault phase, then conscripts are better shielda in this situation due to having an higher freedom in casualties removal. They will not make it to the next round, but who cares.

Now, if you think you have something to say on this, please do. No actually don't, we don't want to turn this thread into another thread about conscripts, if you want i'll open a topic about it.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.

I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!

The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M

For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).

The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.

I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .

Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.

 Kirasu wrote:

So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.

Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.

Let's just say that...EVERYONE...can do with a more diligent following of the few rules we have here - especially Rule #1.

bobafett012 wrote:Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.

Sadly, don't think so.

My take on it is this:

BA is a codex that is really good at running Blood Angels as Blood Angels, and supports that with rules and special snowflake stuff (stratagems, relics, etc) that let them be themselves even more.

Basically, GW correctly identified the theme of Blood Angels and gave the chapter a nice hefty toolbox to support it, with ancillary tools to do the other stuff SM chapters do.

---

With Dark Angels, it's Codex Space Marine take 2, with a standard OK but not amazing chapter trait that partially vanishes or overlaps with other rules in a fair number of circumstances.

Effectively Ravenwing and Deathwing operate as separate mini-chapters with their own 'chapter traits,' and have tiny slices of supporting material (strats, relics, etc) to make them vaguely ok.

At a glance it looks like a fairly mediocre mono-build army, that might be better than another type of space marine if you play the way the CT says you should (immobile gunline) or you like one or two DA exclusive units.

By comparison, BA at a glance looks fun, competitive and fluffy.

Initial thoughts are that greenwing and ravenwing got a nice boost, but deathwing are really notin a better place than they were before.
Looking forward to seeing how many points my RW force has saved, and what to add to get my 1500 pt list to 2000. Definitely a talonmaster.

As long as I can still buff my Spartan with Azrael anything else is a bonus.

bobafett012 wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.

I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!

The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M

For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).

The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.

I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .

Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.

 Kirasu wrote:

So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.

Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.

To be fair... saying that you have a 75% win rate with a full DW army doesn't give a lot of credits to your claims that terminators are in a bad spot

Anyway, yes, i do believe that terminators lacked something before the codex and they still lack it. I don't think that full DW will be a top competitive choice, neither ravenwing will be. This codex is capable of churning out really competitive lists, but only by correctly complementing many different styles of play, not by focusing on one. For each of those there is a codex that does it better, but there isn't one that can do all of those together.

A lot will depend on the tournament rules. This codex gains a lot by selecting the traits and the relics game by game, it has a lot of situational relics and traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As long as I can still buff my Spartan with Azrael anything else is a bonus.

Sorry to say that you can't, Azrael no longer affects vehicles (apart from the reroll to hit).

Spoletta wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As long as I can still buff my Spartan with Azrael anything else is a bonus.

Sorry to say that you can't, Azrael no longer affects vehicles (apart from the reroll to hit).

Awww man, no more 4++ bubble... guess it's on Infantry only? BOOOOO.

Indeed, infantry and bikes.

Spoletta wrote:
Indeed, infantry and bikes.

Thanks dude!

Voss wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.

Sadly, don't think so.

My take on it is this:

BA is a codex that is really good at running Blood Angels as Blood Angels, and supports that with rules and special snowflake stuff (stratagems, relics, etc) that let them be themselves even more.

Basically, GW correctly identified the theme of Blood Angels and gave the chapter a nice hefty toolbox to support it, with ancillary tools to do the other stuff SM chapters do.

---

With Dark Angels, it's Codex Space Marine take 2, with a standard OK but not amazing chapter trait that partially vanishes or overlaps with other rules in a fair number of circumstances.

Effectively Ravenwing and Deathwing operate as separate mini-chapters with their own 'chapter traits,' and have tiny slices of supporting material (strats, relics, etc) to make them vaguely ok.

At a glance it looks like a fairly mediocre mono-build army, that might be better than another type of space marine if you play the way the CT says you should (immobile gunline) or you like one or two DA exclusive units.

By comparison, BA at a glance looks fun, competitive and fluffy.

I think the DA haven't had a coherent theme for a while now. Are they just codex space marines with DW and RW being the real focus, are they max shooty marines (even if regular marines have slowly shifted to that theme over the years too), are they just good a killing their own boogey man?

I think the DA have become codex space marines -0.5 where they pay more for a good rule here and there and for a bunch of situational ones that really just keep them par power wise to other vanilla marines.

Dark Angels do have a coherent theme... It's just a background fluff theme that has minimal impact on the table. That they have more secrets, more terminators, more plasma and higher ranking bikers doesn't actually matter, when everyone can take any amount of terminators and plasma. Even pre 8th edition, if, for some reason, you wanted 30 terminators (probably with th & ss) you could just do that. So their social snowflakeness doesn't actually have much impact on the game itself.

bobafett012 wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.

I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!

The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M

For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).

The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.

I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .

Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.

 Kirasu wrote:

So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.

Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.

The Codex isn't even out, people hasn't had any time to try any kind of list of strategy, we have 0 practical data on the tables and tournaments, and you are claiming that this is a low tier Codex? Oh my god, give me a break.
Mathhammer can do only so much, theres a reason why balance changes are done a month or two before something has come out, to gain data and let the dust to settle so people can work strategies and tactics with what they have at their dispossal.

And I know "Omg people realised conscripts where OP 5 minutes before the Index were leaked". But we are talking here about a wholle codex. Theres no way to know how it will be end in the current competitive meta, or where it will sit when other Codex's come out. And I can even agree that this book at first glance seems inferior to the BA one. But at the same time Dark Angels were stronger than BA pre-codex.

I mean the fluff is coherent and I was commenting on how that no longer translates to the table. Your assessment is solid I agree.

Codex Space Marines took over the DA themes and DA were never given anything to make up for it. Heck, even WS stole away the interest of RW.

Old arguement but I can't see any reason to actually keep DA as a seperate codex from Codex Space Marines. Outside of Knight (of both flavors), the 2 flyers and speeders the army basically plays like over costed codex space marines.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I mean the fluff is coherent and I was commenting on how that no longer translates to the table. Your assessment is solid I agree.

Codex Space Marines took over the DA themes and DA were never given anything to make up for it. Heck, even WS stole away the interest of RW.

Old arguement but I can't see any reason to actually keep DA as a seperate codex from Codex Space Marines. Outside of Knight (of both flavors), the 2 flyers and speeders the army basically plays like over costed codex space marines.

Overcosted? I haven't seen the point sheet yet, if it's been leaked I'd enjoy looking through it, but my general take has been it's an overall better codex compared to vanilla SM. In particular comparing it to the white scars it seems clear DA are just a better version of the same concept. You can make a case for DA falling behind ultramarines, because no primarch acting as extreme force multiplier and slightly worse WT, but beyond that DA wins, with unique tailored buffs for different units and multiple unique characters almost all with powerful buffs. Unless the pricing has gone up across the board for DA I'd argue they are far more viable than most generic SM chapters currently are.

The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.

Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.

Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.

In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.

 Galas wrote:

Mathhammer can do only so much, theres a reason why balance changes are done a month or two before something has come out, to gain data.

Yes, indeed. Enough quantitative data to prove the mathhammer, something GW can't (and won't) generate enough of on its own.
That they're cautious enough to want some proof before changing (most) things, doesn't mean the mathhammer is wrong. Or that it's bad to do it. Or somehow infringing on you if other people discuss it.

It's not even that difficult in this particular case, since marine chapters with minor adjustments have been Indexed, changed, Codexed, changed again and Chapter Approved. So appending a slightly different set of minor rules changes doesn't exactly deviate from the principles repeatedly established over the last six months.

DA are easily my favourite chapter (by far), and it seems with this codex, they aren't (at first glance), super powerful like some other books are. That said, it's not even out yet so making a blanket statement is a little premature.

From looking at/reading some of the new strategems, unit rules and getting a general feel on how the army works, I feel that this army will need to rely a bit more on synergy of playstyles. What I mean by that is if we take all the different wings and use them in support of each other, they will be extremely effective. Although, I also think that if there is a kink in the plan it will be far less forgiving (one might say it's unforgivable!)... and as we know, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

I think the first turn will be where DA shine, and then taper out a bit. Having the DW drop in and make a gap for the Ravenwing to advance up, unleash an outrageous amount of plasma talon shots, and then charge something could potentially cripple or destroy key units in the opponents army. Adding in the characters for their buffs is also going to be an important part of this strategy (like every other army). All of this being supported by a Greenwing firebase should prove to be effective. Hopefully. Plus after all that stuff is in their backfield causing a ruckus, they still will need to deal with it.

There is of course counters to literally everything, so trying to minimize them is going to be a challenge. One such counter has the enemy doing exactly nothing... and that is those units costs. Having two large units of DW and RW are going to be a sizable chunk of the army, so careful positioning and target selection is going to be paramount in order to maximize their effectiveness in subsequent turns. Thankfully, morale isn't really an issue to them.

In any case, I preordered the book already because I'm also very interested in the updated fluff. Should be really neat to see what's advanced so far.

SeanDrake wrote:
The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.

Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.

Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.

In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.

All makes sense and agreed - but people want their own codex. Given that this is Dark Angels thread I don't think this argument however logcial is going to get any traction.

Was the old Deathwing story still in the last codex - that was the Dark Angels I enjoyed.

SeanDrake wrote:
The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.

Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.

Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.

In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.

Well, aside from the whole Fallen thing, Dark Angels are supposed to be anti Xenos, and expert monster hunters. Monster hunter weaponry just happens to do well against Daemon Princes and Primarchs as well.... but thematically one could make a Monster Hunter list against Nids. I do enjoy the plasma themed Strategems. Sit and shoot rerolls, with +1 damage.