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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
12 of those 24 missions are maelstrom and eternal war mission, the exact kind designed for matched play.

You're still getting a deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because you WANT to ignore half of the book, doesn't mean it is a bad book.

Exactly!

I get that people are mad they are paying money for rules changes and points changes. But that doesn't mean the rest of the book is trash.

No, not exactly. If the value was there as your implying then there was no reason at all not to FAQ all the point changes online for free in addition to releasing them in this supplement.

If you purchase a video game and it has a bug the company NEVER charges you for a patch, and they never attach a patch that repairs the game to optional DLC. Why do you think that is?

Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

You SERIOUSLY believe that for example that forge world flier was SO AWESOMELY BROKEN that it justified 300% price hike? _300%_? If it was so broken you could bet your house it would have been dominating tournaments but so far I haven't seen any tournament list that even USED it let alone dominated it.

Let's take a look at it shall we? I bet 90% of the people here have no idea what it does.

It can transport FIFTY models. It can even pack in a Rhino.
It has FORTY wounds at T9 and a 3+/5++
POTMS
You add 12" to any weapon targeting it. Meaning a melta gun will almost never be able to hit it and vastly reduces the chance other weapons can, too.
A 4+ VOID SHIELD THAT CAN BE EXTENDED TO ALL MODELS WITHIN 8"

Hoookaaay.

Let's break that down.

40 wounds with a 3+/4+++
That's some titan level gak right there. A warhound is 35 wounds at T9 with a 4+++, but no invuln. The base cost was previously 1,500 and is now 2,000.

A warhound has two weapons and some stompy feet. Let's say the macro plasma. So it gets 14 S10 -4 D4

This has 8 lascannons, 6 heavy bolters, and hellstrike missiles. Certainly not as great. So let's call that a wash, because this thing has 5 more wounds.
AND THEN ADD AN 8" 4+++ bubble. And a 50 model transport.

On what fething planet are you from where you think this was worth anywhere near 651 points?

So, yes, they priced it at 2,000 to get it out of matched play, because IT DOESN'T BELONG IN MATCHED PLAY.

I call bs on your bs.

It should also be pointed out that the Stormbird ( if that is the model you are discussing) couldn't have been dominating tournaments if you are using ITC events for your results ( which most people do). The ITC has a general ban on models over 31 PL, so the Stormbird would have been banned from competition.

Yea I have to say, I am not sure I would ascribe malicious intent over incompetence here in regards to the hikes. They missed an awful lot of stuff in the game proper while kneecapping a lot of FW stuff, but sales don't seem to need a a boost over at GW proper currently.

I mean for example I cannot buy a Khorne Lord of Lulz and that guy is a total piece of over priced crap lol.

That said, I do hope that they intend on simply FAQ'ing the point adjustments from CA in the future because that DOES smell bad to me. You never charge for a fix to your own mistakes, thats just unethical even if you hide those fixes behind other content. I am fine with it being in CA, but it also should be in a free downloadable FAQ.

Daedalus81 wrote:

On what fething planet are you from where you think this was worth anywhere near 651 points?

So, yes, they priced it at 2,000 to get it out of matched play, because IT DOESN'T BELONG IN MATCHED PLAY.

I call bs on your bs.

Great post and excellent rebuttal, sir

str00dles1 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't matter if the rest of the book is trash. The rest of it looks like it'll be great for the people inclined to care about it. I hope those people that manage to find appeal in everything in the book get some real quality material out of it.

But then there's the significant portion of the community who has to also pay for it just to keep up to date (in what a lot of people will agree is likely not a desirable direction in the first place) who don't get anything out of it. To us, it's bloat, tacked on to justify the price tag on something that shouldn't have one to begin with.

So by your logic, more options = bloat.

Im guessing you stuck by your guns and didn't buy your armies codex (or wont buy it if it hasn't come out yet) by that reasoning then? that's just more options then an index...

My logic has nothing against options. My logic has things against irrelevant options that I'll never use and never gain any value out of. If I don't like Land Raiders, why should I ever be made to care about Land Raider customization rules? Moreover, why do those, which are clearly NOT for matched play, need to be paired with the rules update for matched play specifically?

I didn't buy the Admech codex because it was a literal copy/paste job of the index (typos and errors included) with a few stratagems and one good faction trait added (really only needed the faction cards and whiteout for that).

I bought the Craftworlds codex because it represented a substantial development of its faction. While there are elements that I might not end up using, it had enough content for me to justify its price.

 Fafnir wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't matter if the rest of the book is trash. The rest of it looks like it'll be great for the people inclined to care about it. I hope those people that manage to find appeal in everything in the book get some real quality material out of it.

But then there's the significant portion of the community who has to also pay for it just to keep up to date (in what a lot of people will agree is likely not a desirable direction in the first place) who don't get anything out of it. To us, it's bloat, tacked on to justify the price tag on something that shouldn't have one to begin with.

This is such crap.

First, there is a loud minority who are sitting on the internet bitching and complaining. NOT a majority. MOST people who buy the book are interested in the missions at the very least.

In past editiosn you either had to pay 50 bucks for your new codex (if you even got one that edition) or more then that for some supplement (Shield of Baal) to get any kind of update to your army at all. Apocalypse was another 50+ book all on it's own. Did you want datasheets for a ADL? Another 50+ bucks.

Here is 1 35.00 book that provides rules for almost every army in the game, an extra 24 missions (more then ever came in any other book), and rules for several game types that in the past have been their own books, AND other gak. Your literally getting like... 3 times the rules content for almost half the price of one book in the past.

Boo fuckin hoo if all the content isn't to your liking. Then don't buy it? Battlescribe will updte your points costs accordingly within a week or so.

Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

 Crimson wrote:
Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

Which would be nice, but that why Power level comes in the box with the models and the datasheet and points are in the books behind a pay wall. Point adjustments will never be free. Accept it. The datasheets themselves should all be released online for free however. If they are going to come in the box then just let everyone download them.

kombatwombat wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Stormbird analysis.

Okie doke Daedalus, seeing as you are so far the only person I’ve seen legitimately defending the price hikes on any of the FW Lords of War, let’s keep this ball rolling.

Can you in any way come up with a similar defence for:

[Easy Difficulty] The Falchion going up by 200 points

[Medium Difficulty] The Fellblade going up by 200 points

[Hard Difficulty] The Typhon going up by 200 points

If you’re going to take the shortcut and say it’s because they don’t belong in normal games, why don’t the similarly powerful Baneblade Chassis tanks get the same treatment (despite being roughly equal in firepower/durability for close to literally half the cost)? Or Knights, or Wraithknights, or any other 20+ wound Lord of War? I would actually prefer to have all these units restricted to >3000pt games, but be realistically costed for those games.

I’m not trying to be snarky here, I am legitimately interested in the logic path that would make these (and many other) point jumps reasonable.

Speculating here, but I think GW had noticed the poor quality of the initial round of FW balancing and have decided to simply put all FW units in line for the time being. There's such a large range of niche FW units to look at compared to codex ones, it's entirely possible they got little feedback on many of these, if any. Plus as units get bigger it's harder to argue that they should be in 2000pt games in the first place.

Personally I think Knights / Wraithknights are in an OK place points-wise right now, possibly even overpriced. I've never really had any trouble handling them with a TAC list. Baneblade chassis' are a slightly different story, due to the way they synergise with AM codex rules and bubble-wrap units (unlike knight-equivalents). I rarely hear of people running multi-knight lists these days (especially WKs), but since the codex multiple Baneblades are definitely a thing.

However as I mentioned on the previous page, I think the AM point changes are largely (if not entirely) based on the index rather than codex. There realistically wasn't enough time to sift through all the non-Mournival codex feedback from and get it all processed in time to print & distribute CA. Hell it's even possible CA went to print before the Commissar nerf was rushed out. That would explain why the numbers look so odd.

I have no doubt the Baneblade's time will come in the next round of balance updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Point adjustments will never be free. Accept it.

Actually they may well be:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/7f8j5n/faq_process_clarified_by_pete_foley/

 Crimson wrote:
Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

Welcome to 8th edition, same as 7th edition.

An Imperial player who has a small mix of Guard, Space Marines, and Inquisition (a relatively fluffy list) will need to have: Rules, Chapter Approved, Guard Codex, Marine Codex, and Index Imperium 2. If he's even more soup-y, that might require another Index and more Codices. And you may reference each of those books throughout a game.

Oh, and have available any FAQ/Errata that apply to any of those publications, so either multiple files on phone or a bunch of printouts.

8th edition is more streamlined you guys!




(To be clear, I'm having fun with 8th and I think it's better than 7th, but this whole rules publication debacle is getting out of hand)

 Lance845 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

Which would be nice, but that why Power level comes in the box with the models and the datasheet and points are in the books behind a pay wall. Point adjustments will never be free. Accept it. The datasheets themselves should all be released online for free however. If they are going to come in the box then just let everyone download them.

But then people can use your rules with other models which is something the loathe.

What they should do is release corrections to their own mistakes for free online. I don't fault them for making errors at the pace they are pumping rules out at, I will fault them for charging people twice due to those errors however.

 Lance845 wrote:
Point adjustments will never be free. Accept it.

I went into the FAQ section on the Community site and found 5 free FAQs with point adjustments on them.

Granted they're overwritten with Chapter Approved but literally there were free point adjustments with 2 minutes of searching.

Theyve said they are going to stop doing those two week post codex individual balance/FAQ publications, instead twice annual FAQ updates in March and September and Chapter Approved in December.

WatcherZero wrote:
Theyve said they are going to stop doing those two week post codex individual balance/FAQ publications, instead twice annual FAQ updates in March and September and Chapter Approved in December.

Source?

2 Week codex updates to issues were the smart thing to do. Now if you get your book in April you will wait 5-6 months for an update. Really its more work for them to wait as people will be spamming the hell out of them for answers when the book has errors (which by their perfect track record for issues so far...)

From 40K General Discussion:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
To take a quote from reddit:

Just a few moments ago Pete discussed the process, going forward, for FAQs. During the weekly 40k Twitch stream he talked about how they want to formalize the FAQ process so players can be more confident that units purchased based on a new codex won't be rapidly altered immediately after the codex's release (e.g. commissar changes right after AM codex came out). The process will be this: two weeks after every codex release they will produce an FAQ that ONLY clarifies the wording of rules if there's any confusion in the community. For balance, twice annually they will do an FAQ where they change how units work, update points, etc. based on competitive feedback; once in March and once in September. Thoughts? Comments?

So, FAQs 2 weeks after codex release, Fixes every 6 months. All this says to me is that we're going to have 6 month cycles where one broken army list rules the roost before they can fix it.

Requizen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

Welcome to 8th edition, same as 7th edition.

An Imperial player who has a small mix of Guard, Space Marines, and Inquisition (a relatively fluffy list) will need to have: Rules, Chapter Approved, Guard Codex, Marine Codex, and Index Imperium 2. If he's even more soup-y, that might require another Index and more Codices. And you may reference each of those books throughout a game.

Oh, and have available any FAQ/Errata that apply to any of those publications, so either multiple files on phone or a bunch of printouts.

8th edition is more streamlined you guys!




(To be clear, I'm having fun with 8th and I think it's better than 7th, but this whole rules publication debacle is getting out of hand)

Weirdly in pre-6th soup was literally impossible as allies rules didn't exist, I would argue if you don't want to over book keep then have a 1 faction army.

kombatwombat wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Stormbird analysis.

Okie doke Daedalus, seeing as you are so far the only person I’ve seen legitimately defending the price hikes on any of the FW Lords of War, let’s keep this ball rolling.

Can you in any way come up with a similar defence for:

[Easy Difficulty] The Falchion going up by 200 points

[Medium Difficulty] The Fellblade going up by 200 points

[Hard Difficulty] The Typhon going up by 200 points

If you’re going to take the shortcut and say it’s because they don’t belong in normal games, why don’t the similarly powerful Baneblade Chassis tanks get the same treatment (despite being roughly equal in firepower/durability for close to literally half the cost)? Or Knights, or Wraithknights, or any other 20+ wound Lord of War? I would actually prefer to have all these units restricted to >3000pt games, but be realistically costed for those games.

I’m not trying to be snarky here, I am legitimately interested in the logic path that would make these (and many other) point jumps reasonable.

We'll start with the Typhon, then. The problem with these is that the cost of the gun were built into the base cost.

This thing is T9 W22 2+
A Bane Blade is T8 W26 3+ @ 390.

Let's do some math to determine what that means.
1 lascannon hit: Typhon -- 1 * .5 * .666 * 3.5 = 1.16 Baneblade -- 1 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 1.94 1 melta hit Typhon -- 1 * .333 * .833 * 3.5 = 0.97 Baneblade -- 1 * .5 * 1 * 3.5 = 1.75

The Baneblade takes around 70 to 80% more damage.

We still need to separate the weapons though.

A twin magna melta is 120 points for 2D3 24" S10 -4 D6 shots with the melta rule.
The dreadhamer is 2D6 S10 -5 D3 at 48" (if it doesn't move).

A twin weapon is double cost, right? let's make an assumption for the moment that this gun having slightly higher AP and slightly lower damage is worth double the twin magna melta. That would make it 240 points.

Removing that we have 480 points left for the base cost.

A Bandblade cannon is 3D6 S9 -3 D3 and BS4+.

Versus a Baneblade it does 7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 8.7 damage A lascannon does 1 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 0.97

So a Baneblade cannon is worth about 9 BS4 lascannons or 180 points, which seems about right. That makes the base cost somewhere in the 210 point ballpark. With the Typhon coming close to being twice as durable to common weapons it isn't a stretch to see it's base cost at 420.

That puts us 60 points off from it's current valuation. Baneblades might be a tad too cheap. The weapons might be not quite right, but it's solid enough in my opinion to claim that 720 for a Typhon is not entirely absurd. It might be 50 to 100 too much. Or the Baneblade could be 50 to 100 too cheap. Or both.

If it were my guess the base cost is actually quite a bit higher and the BBC is valued too low given that a Land Raider comes in at 239 with a 2+, but fewer wounds. In fact a landraider pays 15 points per wound. Add 6 more of those and a T8 LR w/ 22 would be 329 points. Now make it T9. Then again a LR may be overvalued, but not by much.

We'll just have to wait and see.

When can we expect Battlescribe to be updated? They're still using Index costs for Daemons...

Dudeface wrote:
Weirdly in pre-6th soup was literally impossible as allies rules didn't exist, I would argue if you don't want to over book keep then have a 1 faction army.

You're forgetting inquisition in 3rd through 5th, which allowed a lot of soup.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
When can we expect Battlescribe to be updated? They're still using Index costs for Daemons...

Don't rely on Battlescribe is about all I can offer you.

Battlescribe and its many errors and people being both lazy and cheap is a stain that I have to combat in every event I run...

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
When can we expect Battlescribe to be updated? They're still using Index costs for Daemons...

I'm sure nothing will happen until the book is actually out, and then it typically takes a week or more for new data to be entered by the community.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't matter if the rest of the book is trash. The rest of it looks like it'll be great for the people inclined to care about it. I hope those people that manage to find appeal in everything in the book get some real quality material out of it.

But then there's the significant portion of the community who has to also pay for it just to keep up to date (in what a lot of people will agree is likely not a desirable direction in the first place) who don't get anything out of it. To us, it's bloat, tacked on to justify the price tag on something that shouldn't have one to begin with.

This is such crap.

First, there is a loud minority who are sitting on the internet bitching and complaining. NOT a majority. MOST people who buy the book are interested in the missions at the very least.

That's just as much a baseless assertion as Fafnir's. Neither of you have any meaningful data on what 'most people' think of the book.
Like it or don't like it, there are certainly reasons for both, especially for people who don't care about certain aspects of it. But nothing 'proves' it to be trash OR amazing.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
When can we expect Battlescribe to be updated? They're still using Index costs for Daemons...

Almost certainly won't be updated until after the book comes out. I would expect that within a week or so of the release Battlescribe will reflect the new points costs. As others have implied, be wary of errors in Battlescribe and cross check the points costs at least initially to make sure they are accurate. Also, with regards to Daemons, be aware that they got no points changes in CA as their codex drops in the beginning of January, meaning that even when Battlescribe does their CA updates Daemons will still be the same (other than FW unit adjustments).

Requizen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Completely irrespective of the price, it is just bloody inconvenient that points are scattered across several publications. They should be in one place online, preferably accompanied by an army builder app.

Welcome to 8th edition, same as 7th edition.

An Imperial player who has a small mix of Guard, Space Marines, and Inquisition (a relatively fluffy list) will need to have: Rules, Chapter Approved, Guard Codex, Marine Codex, and Index Imperium 2. If he's even more soup-y, that might require another Index and more Codices. And you may reference each of those books throughout a game.

Oh, and have available any FAQ/Errata that apply to any of those publications, so either multiple files on phone or a bunch of printouts.

8th edition is more streamlined you guys!




(To be clear, I'm having fun with 8th and I think it's better than 7th, but this whole rules publication debacle is getting out of hand)

Or they could just write the new points into imperial index one and two and print out their chapter tactics and warlord traits.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
12 of those 24 missions are maelstrom and eternal war mission, the exact kind designed for matched play.

You're still getting a deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because you WANT to ignore half of the book, doesn't mean it is a bad book.

Exactly!

I get that people are mad they are paying money for rules changes and points changes. But that doesn't mean the rest of the book is trash.

No, not exactly. If the value was there as your implying then there was no reason at all not to FAQ all the point changes online for free in addition to releasing them in this supplement.

If you purchase a video game and it has a bug the company NEVER charges you for a patch, and they never attach a patch that repairs the game to optional DLC. Why do you think that is?

Oh definitely. I am not defending the fact that the points changes are not free. I absolutely believe they should be made available for free, online, from GW (not Reddit...). Bug fixes like that belong in FAQs (which is where they have been up until this point).

In general, GW needs to go digital badly. In many ways they're better suited for it than anyone else, but they're still stuck on a system so out of date its replacement is becoming antiquated.

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't matter if the rest of the book is trash. The rest of it looks like it'll be great for the people inclined to care about it. I hope those people that manage to find appeal in everything in the book get some real quality material out of it.

But then there's the significant portion of the community who has to also pay for it just to keep up to date (in what a lot of people will agree is likely not a desirable direction in the first place) who don't get anything out of it. To us, it's bloat, tacked on to justify the price tag on something that shouldn't have one to begin with.

This is such crap.

First, there is a loud minority who are sitting on the internet bitching and complaining. NOT a majority. MOST people who buy the book are interested in the missions at the very least.

That's just as much a baseless assertion as Fafnir's. Neither of you have any meaningful data on what 'most people' think of the book.
Like it or don't like it, there are certainly reasons for both, especially for people who don't care about certain aspect of it. But nothing 'proves' it to be trash OR amazing.

When did I ever say most people would be in the same boat as me? I said a significant portion. Not most. Now, I definitely don't have any market research to back up my claim, but I'd argue that the outcry on Dakka shows at least a notable portion of the community falls in that boat.

No "The outcry on Dakka" is a couple dozen people in a body of hundreds of thousands. If you think the crying babies of Dakka are representative of anything then you are sorely mistaken.

 Hollow wrote:
No "The outcry on Dakka" is a couple dozen people in a body of hundreds of thousands. If you think the crying babies of Dakka are representative of anything then you are sorely mistaken.

Well I'd rather be a crybaby than a punching bag taking hits then asking for more.

Its not our fault gw only pays lip service to social media, they are the EA of the miniature games market they earnt their bad rep by screwing over customers.