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Hey there!

I see a lot of lists posted by people saying it's a 2k list, but then it ends up being 200(x).

My question is: is this practice legit? Are there downsides like in 7th ed. where your enemy automatically gained the initiative?

I don't mind that my opponent might have 2 points more, but I try to get it on point or below and therefore sometimes take a worse option that saves me a few points.

Aeri wrote:
Hey there!

I see a lot of lists posted by people saying it's a 2k list, but then it ends up being 200(x).

My question is: is this practice legit? Are there downsides like in 7th ed. where your enemy automatically gained the initiative?

I don't mind that my opponent might have 2 points more, but I try to get it on point or below and therefore sometimes take a worse option that saves me a few points.

It's as legit as literally anything else in the game that you agree to do. There are no rules regarding points limits like that in 8th, mainly because GW is actively discouraging people from using points now.

In short, you have two options. One is to get super upset over a single point difference and refuse to play, or to not get super upset and agree to instead have a 200x point limit game.

A tournament obviously will most likely have a tournament rule disallowing this.

The only rules regarding points limit are on page 214 and literally boil down to "Agree to a point limit, they don't have to match if you don't want to, make sure you don't exceed the agreed limit."

The Cities of Death mission and Only War mission have a mission specific Underdog rule that applies to Power Level only. Again, GW have REALLY heavily pushed power level this time around in many ways, the main one making it a massive annoyance to even count up the points, so it makes sense to have power level specific rules.

Convention if you say 2000 pts it should be 2000pt no more. It's not hard to drop a conscript from a list or remove a 5pt upgrade to get you under the total. Takeing more than the agreed amount gives you an advantage which is why tournaments won't allow it. I mean what army couldn't make use of an extra power sword on a Sgt. If you start going above that total what's acceptable 2004 2008 if 2008 is but 2009 isn't why not play a 2008pt game

In a casual game if I'm plating a new opponent who claimed he was in a rush and made 2001 pt list im not going to refuse to play them that 1pt is going to make almost no difference but I am going to recommend that they are better prepared next time

Aeri wrote:
Hey there!

I see a lot of lists posted by people saying it's a 2k list, but then it ends up being 200(x).

My question is: is this practice legit? Are there downsides like in 7th ed. where your enemy automatically gained the initiative?

I don't mind that my opponent might have 2 points more, but I try to get it on point or below and therefore sometimes take a worse option that saves me a few points.

Its going to vary but my personal view is that if the pts limit is 2000pts that's the limit, yes 1 or 2 pts will not make a huge difference but its irritating if you have gone to the trouble of balancing it at 2000 or even slightly below and they rock up and go - yeah I am a few points over.

Basically it just impolite to assume that you can go over and I think that can be communicated without in turn being impolite although some people do use a passive aggressive - "surely just a few pts won't matter"

In my experience, it's better to be firm with the Points Limit otherwise it's not really a limit. 95% of my experience tells me that someone will exceed any given Points Limit only if they're lazy ("Oh - I'd rather have 5x 10-Man Squads than 4x 10-Man Squads and one 9-Man Squad) or the one thing that is putting them over is essential to their list (e..g a Power Sword on the Sergeant that would make that melee squad OP or something along those lines).

While I'm unfamiliar with the exact rules surrounding Points Limits and the circumstances in which you can exceed them (assuming such circumstances exist), it is generally a good idea to be very strict about Points Limits, not to mention this is widely practiced as well as being enforced at Tournaments.

RAW it's clearly not allowed. But of course as in everything in 40k it's up to players how they play. RAW bolters are AP0 but nothing stops player playing it AP-1 if they want.

Some people don't worry about point or two, others(like me) don't follow points all that accurately anyway but eyeball respective forces for what looks like interesting&fun game that fits fluff of our campaign&scenario.

I also thing that there is the possibility of someone doing it to seek an unfair advantage especially if it's not clearly highlighted to your opponent.

Different players have a different 'give-and-take'. Also you'll be a bit miffed if you're 10 points under to be 'legal' and they're 10 points over because it was just easier.

U02dah4 wrote:
I also thing that there is the possibility of someone doing it to seek an unfair advantage especially if it's not clearly highlighted to your opponent.

There are basically two circumstances for going over - lazy list building and cheating.

I say cheating because a couple of points over isn't a couple of points over - it's an extra model or an extra unit.

Defenders of the practice will cry "it's just a meltabomb" but if it was just a meltabomb they'd remove it. When pressed they'll say that they need that last unit or upgrade to make their army work and that's why they can't drop anything.

Hence, cheating.

FWIW, this is what the rule book says:

Typically, you and your opponent will build an army to an agreed points limit, but you could instead, for example,build armies that have a setn umber of units.Alternatively, you could use the Wounds characteristic or the Power Rating of each unit,either setting an upper limit for each unit or a fixed total for both armies. These are just a few examples of ways you can organise an army for matched play games–you and your opponent can use any system you like,as long as you both agree.

Nowhere in there does it say "agree a limit with your opponent and then just get kinda close to it and you're good". I'd say that if you'd agreed a particular points limit then that's the limit - make sure your list is under and tell the other guy to fix his list. Some gaming groups have a pre-arranged agreement that they play (for example) 2000 points but 10 points over is okay. Presumably if they arrange to play 2010 points certain people show up with 2016 point lists...

Gaming is like Milk, 2% is fine.

You can go over by any number of points you like, so long as it's 0.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Gaming is like Milk, 2% is fine.

You realize at 2k that's 40 points, right?

M.

Although noawadays my group keeps to being strict on the points limits, a long time ago when we were more about just throwing models down on the table, we had a little rule. It's still pretty good;

"You can go over the points limit so long as there's nothing you can take out from your army that's in the amount you're over by."

The idea was that if you were at 1498, you could take something worth 5 points to bring you to 1503. But if you were at 1498 and brought something big worth 15 points, like another Space Marine, but had something you could take away, like a Flamer, then you couldn't do it. Kept the going over to a real minimum.

 Yarium wrote:
Although noawadays my group keeps to being strict on the points limits, a long time ago when we were more about just throwing models down on the table, we had a little rule. It's still pretty good;

"You can go over the points limit so long as there's nothing you can take out from your army that's in the amount you're over by."

The idea was that if you were at 1498, you could take something worth 5 points to bring you to 1503. But if you were at 1498 and brought something big worth 15 points, like another Space Marine, but had something you could take away, like a Flamer, then you couldn't do it. Kept the going over to a real minimum.

So, you can do an all-Imperial Knight army as long as you aren't over by more than the cost of one Imperial Knight. :

(The problem with rules of thumb, eventually the thumb get hit by the hammer of an absurd situation )

If it's a tourny, the limit is a limit.

In a friendly game, we say 2000 pts, I throw together a quick list... hmm, 2001 points...

Typically, I (or the other player) will say "Mind if I'm 1 point over"? Never seen the other guy complain. But then, his list could be 2001 points too.

I wouldn't add another guy to go from 11 points short to 1 point over, but if I add another min squad, because I'm over 50 points short, and it's 1 above? It's a casual game...

Bharring wrote:
If it's a tourny, the limit is a limit.

In a friendly game, we say 2000 pts, I throw together a quick list... hmm, 2001 points...

Typically, I (or the other player) will say "Mind if I'm 1 point over"? Never seen the other guy complain. But then, his list could be 2001 points too.

I wouldn't add another guy to go from 11 points short to 1 point over, but if I add another min squad, because I'm over 50 points short, and it's 1 above? It's a casual game...

Which means that the agreed points limit is now 2,001 points and you have not exceeded the points limit. The only way to exceed the points limit is if you play with more points than your opponent agreed to, usually by not telling your opponent that you're over the agreed limit.

RAW, that is true. RAI and HIWPI is that I'm still over by 1 point but nobody cares.

That was really fun to type.

If I'm building a 2000 pts list, I'm building a list that has no more than 2000 pts in it, and I expect my opponent to do the same.

If my list is even one point over the points limit, I'm modifying it so it isn't. I won't always be able to hit exactly 2000, but it's not that hard to make sure it's not above 2000. If that means 1996, so be it.

Bharring wrote:
RAW, that is true. RAI and HIWPI is that I'm still over by 1 point but nobody cares.

That was really fun to type.

From 'Points Limit', page 214 of the main rulebook:

In a matched play game, you will need to determine with your opponent the points limit for your game. Usually, both players will use the same limit, but this does not need to be the case.

To use a points limit, you will need to reference the points values, which are found in a number of Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In these you will find the points costs for every model and weapon described in that book. Simply add up the points values of all the models and weapons in your army, and make sure the total does not exceed the agreed limit for the game.

I see nothing that would indicate that it's intended that you can't change your agreed points limit before the game begins.

I'd rather be 1996 points than 2001 points, certainly. Don't need to use every last point, but I won't delay the game for 15 minutes refactoring the list to be under - if, for instance, all my units are at rules or headcannon minimum numbers and options.

And I agree it's no excuse on a premeditated game, where you know the points levels before you show up. I usually know the points levels just before the game (and build lists in minutes).

Limit is limit. It's super inconsiderate to agree to a limit then break it. If you really want a 2001 point army, ask for a 2001 point game.

In cases where I know about it beforehand, sure, no justification for breaking it.

If we just said "Up for a game?" / "Yeah sure." / "2000 sound good?", I then throw things into a list to make 2000, and take stuff off if I go over.

If I have 2001 points on my list, and no obvious sub-outs for going under without being below 1950, and everything is at effectively-minimum (min squad or mid headcannon-layout) is it better to take another 15 minutes to redo the list before setting up the board, or ask if it's ok to be 1 over?

Have you ever seen some of the points used in White Dwarf battle reports? They're all over the place.

I've always allowed myself the 1 point over in casual games but I strive to be exact, or under. I enjoy the challenge of list building. An 1851 or 2001 doesent keep me up at night, but over 1 point, I would rewrite the list. Rather be under than over. That's just my own OCD and perfectionism. Virgo sign here.

I never really check my opponents lists unless something looks suspiciously under costed.

If it's a friendly game then a couple of points over isn't a massive thing, though if knocking anything off your list would bring you down to the points limit dead on I'd prefer that, and my leeway wouldn't stretch above 3-4 pts above the limit, if that.

Practice or Tournament games would be a massive no, though.

In the end of the day it'd be up to the players, but going over your points should be a rare exception, not something common.

 Infantryman wrote:
You can go over by any number of points you like, so long as it's 0.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Gaming is like Milk, 2% is fine.

You realize at 2k that's 40 points, right?

M.

Depending on who I'm playing i'll take an extra 20%

1 point over? AUTOMATIC FORFEIT.

Simple as that.

What John said.

Unless this is a friendly game....if you are over, I'll just add one more ork boy and we'll call it good.

If you agree on 2000 points, be as close to 2000 point as you can.
If you go over by a small amount, like...5, then so be it, let your opponent know and if they want to quickly modify to account.
For me, that's an extra termagaunt. Woo. Go me.

Here's the rule of thumb I follow.
Don't be a dick.
Plain and simple.

First and foremost, it's a game. You and your opponent are meant to have fun. Tis the point.
If you are a player that constantly goes over your points limit because you want an advantage, then no one will want to play with you.

Tournaments are different. 2000 means 2000 or under, not 2001 and higher.

My gaming group use a house rule, if you are over the agreed limit you forfit the right to go first and can not roll for the initiative. Fixed that problem up right quick, suddenly the folks who were always over by 5 or 10 points managed to get below 2000. Funny how that works....

While I'm very loose with points between myself and my buddies (i.e. if you go over, I'll add a model to match), but if it's any kind of blind game or competitive game, etc...don't exceed the point limit. Simple as that. If you can't fiddle anything and your army is 1992 points instead of 2000 because an extra guy or weapon puts you at 2003 points... tough.

Thinking about it, "if you're over, I get to add 1 model of my choice for FREE" is a good solution.

Now that we have End TImes models for AoS and Titans for 40k, that is...