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 Galas wrote:
No, thanks. Now everyone wants to have Imperial Guard options? Gue'Vesa should have their own equipement and their own options. Theres no reason for a Gue'Vesa force to use Imperial Guard equipement.

And to be honest I prefer expanded Vespids, Kroots and Demiurg before any kind of Human Auxiliaries.

Hear hear. The last thing 40k needs is more humans and IoM stuff.

With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

And Gun Drones should have a little redesign. Right now is not that they are only too good, but they make Firewarriors redundant. If you just nerf them, then people will bring Firewarriors. They should have a better niche.

 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.

I actually like those changes Kanluwen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.

Marker drones don't lose BS for firing markerlights anyway so I don't see the point for "attack markerlight drones".

 Gamgee wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
With any Tau buff, should come commander nerfs.

I don't think so. There is no need to nerf commanders to oblivion if IG conscripts didn't get nerfed so hard they aren't viable. They are only good because everything else is so overpriced. I could see a small points increase but it would be minor. Just enough to stop them being spammable. Honestly I think a points re-balancing and fixing our our ML will be enough to get people to not want to spam them but still worth taking one maybe two with the Coldstar for its niche.

You forget that Conscripts did get nerfed. The problem is that your definition of viable seems to be "They exist only to catch bullets from me and my bros".

Also you seem to be ignoring that Commissars are blatantly unplayable at this juncture.
Biggest thing that needs to happen with T'au, if I'm going to be frank about it, is that Commanders need to see a bit of a point step-up or lose the ability to "be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones". It's also worth exploring the option of removing the ability to replace the Burst Cannon and Missile Pod with a Support System and instead allow for the Missile Pod to be replaced by one.

I would also move away from a single "Tactical Drones" entry and instead make a "Support Drone" and "Attack Drone" entry. Support Drone would be Shield and Marker Drones while Attack Drones would be Gun Drones and "Combat" Marker Drones with a shorter ranged Markerlight that is Assault instead of Heavy to encourage the unit to be moving constantly. Make it so that Drone Controller affects Attack Drone squads and Sniper Drone squads and not Support Drone squads and that's another thing being challenged/adjusted right there. Maybe even make it so that <Sept> abilities don't apply to Drones, aside from Drone Controllers.

Another possible option is to have Saviour Protocols only apply to Support Drone Squads.

That's all general, off the cuff stuff. It's not great but it does help alleviate some issues with Drones without just removing them from the game or screwing their purpose out.

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.

Yeah, I'll like for the Tau Commanders and HQ to be more in the support role than in the combat monster one. Thats for Space Marines. Tau Commanders are good, ok, but they are much more valuable for their tactical habilities and knowledge.

 Fueli wrote:
Marker drones don't lose BS for firing markerlights anyway so I don't see the point for "attack markerlight drones".

It allows for differentiating between "Markerlights" for Pathfinders and Marker Drones and a cheaper, less efficient version that has shorter range but can benefit from the Drone Controller.

Think of something like Markerlights from Pathfinders and Marker Drones causing 2 Markerlight counters per hit if stationary while the "Attack" version only grants 1, whether or not they're stationary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

The Tau commander's buff suck. If you points increase him make him a buffer for the army. He has to be viable and making him weak and nerfing drones isn't going to do that. He should have always been a buffing unit that could also support XV8 deep strikes if need be. Right now the "buffs" he provides are terrible compared to other armies. So if you points increase him make him better as a commander and that would encourage people to want to take 1 but not 4. I think the Coldstar Commander should offer a different buff to the regular one to distinguish himself as well and offer a Tau army some options.

Right now the "buffs" he provides are those of an Index character versus a full Codex character. It's also worth mentioning that he's far from terrible, considering that he can take wargear option that buffs up nearby units(Drone Controllers) and survivability buffs(Shield Generator and Stimulant Injector). Add to it that his big army-wide ability can be repeated in other turns and it's kind of a Big Deal.

We don't know exactly what or how his abilities will function come the Codex. Comparing him to "other armies" is pointless because of that and the fact that we do not know what <Sept> bonuses will be.

The tau commander doesn't need a nerf, he needs a redesign.

Because currently, it's a gun platform rather than a leader, leading directly to either the commander of the crisis being pointless, depending on who is more cost effective.

The best the commander can get, it to limit the gun choices, and in return give him actual auras.

Tau one of the worst armies in 8th. Nothing but talks of nerfs on dakka. Ha. Funny funny stuff. He needs a rework once they fix the rest of the dex, but not a nerf. Not a redesign. He should be just as good and flexible of load out but not for spamming. There is zero reason to get rid of his load out flexibility once the rest of the dex is balanced properly and he is costed appropriately with it.

BoomWolf wrote:The tau commander doesn't need a nerf, he needs a redesign.

Because currently, it's a gun platform rather than a leader, leading directly to either the commander of the crisis being pointless, depending on who is more cost effective.

The best the commander can get, it to limit the gun choices, and in return give him actual auras.

Well, if they want to go for that Gundam theme, a gunplatform leader probably is pretty spot on :p

Gamgee wrote:Tau one of the worst armies in 8th. Nothing but talks of nerfs on dakka. Ha. Funny funny stuff. He needs a rework once they fix the rest of the dex, but not a nerf. Not a redesign. He should be just as good and flexible of load out but not for spamming. There is zero reason to get rid of his load out flexibility once the rest of the dex is balanced properly and he is costed appropriately with it.

I don't think we're going to the same Dakka, then. One, precisely one, unit has been mentioned as needing a tone down, and by a small number of users. Everything else would need improvement in some way.

M.

Firewarriors need a points increase.

Martel732 wrote:
Firewarriors need a points increase.

Sisters of Battle are 1 point more for +1 BS, +1 WS, +1 Save and I believe +1 L. They lose 1 S on their weapons and 6" range. Firewarriors are ok. Stop comparing every troop of the game with Tacticals.

Sisters need to cost more too.

Wait. If Firewarriors are underpriced, Sisters of Battle are underpriced, Orks Boyz are balanced, Infantry and Conscripts are Underpriced, Dire Avengeres are now balanced, Guardians are good, Tempestus Scions are underpriced...

Maybe the problem is not with every other fething troop in the game, but with Tacticals Marines and comparing everyone with them? I don't know. Call me crazy.

Dakka has made it clear tacticals are fine.

Whats happen to people that there can't be a thread on Dakkadakka that doesn't end in people complaining about Marines or Imperial Guard? This is a thread about Tau. Please, go to one of the 2-3 marine threads to talk about tacticals.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What is going on here? There's a large amount of revisionist history in this thread -- 7th edition Tau were incredibly far above "mid-tier", in both casual and competitive games. In casual play, Tau had almost nothing that was suboptimal (Kroot were pretty bad, but even Vespids... man, I wish Tyranids had Vespids in 7th, I would've been thankful for them), and fire warriors and markerlights fried lesser codices without a need for the bigger suits (don't get me started on the bigger suits...). Tau didn't need Riptide Wings to table most of the have-nots. Then, in competitive, Tau were not the top army, but they had lots of high placings -- just because they weren't number 1 didn't keep them out of the top 8. Additionally, in tournaments that allowed the Ta'unar, they WERE busted -- I think before we talk about their 8th edition rules, we need to get this out of the way. Tau were REALLY strong in 7th, and that, in addition to their one-dimensional playstyle earned them a lot of salt from players (and I don't think that was undeserved).

Nah they were strong but not top-tier tournament winning list. That went to other lists. Eldar were beating tau silly and even Gladius was doing more regularly top tournament spots than Tau.

Riptide wings were good but since wraithknight was even more bonkers meta went so that everybody was tossing firepower to take out wraithknight and riptide went down even easier than that...And outside riptides they didn't have anything to aim tournament top spots.

They were not weak army like orks but hardly busted good. More like 4th/5th best faction.

Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.

Martel732 wrote:
Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.

You also think that Infantry and Conscripts are "SUPER good".

Martel732 wrote:
Someone else brought up tacticals. I'm just saying that firewarriors are SUPER good.

According to you, everything that isn't a tactical is "super good" pretty much.

Martel we get it, any Space Marines (especially BA) is literally the worst unit ever created in the history of wargaming, while anything not Space Marines (especially Tau stuff) is obscenely broken and should be deleted from existence. You have made this abundantly clear in the "Space Marines are bad" thread. But if you're going to complain about Tau stuff, at least complain about the stuff that's actually good (Commanders and Gun Drones and the Y'Vahra). Not our baseline troops who honestly aren't that good (yes pulse weapons got a slight buff against T7+, but got a nerf against T3, the thing they're supposed to be good against).

At the very least keep the inaccurate whining to other threads rather than wasting time in this one.

tneva82 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
What is going on here? There's a large amount of revisionist history in this thread -- 7th edition Tau were incredibly far above "mid-tier", in both casual and competitive games. In casual play, Tau had almost nothing that was suboptimal (Kroot were pretty bad, but even Vespids... man, I wish Tyranids had Vespids in 7th, I would've been thankful for them), and fire warriors and markerlights fried lesser codices without a need for the bigger suits (don't get me started on the bigger suits...). Tau didn't need Riptide Wings to table most of the have-nots. Then, in competitive, Tau were not the top army, but they had lots of high placings -- just because they weren't number 1 didn't keep them out of the top 8. Additionally, in tournaments that allowed the Ta'unar, they WERE busted -- I think before we talk about their 8th edition rules, we need to get this out of the way. Tau were REALLY strong in 7th, and that, in addition to their one-dimensional playstyle earned them a lot of salt from players (and I don't think that was undeserved).

Nah they were strong but not top-tier tournament winning list. That went to other lists. Eldar were beating tau silly and even Gladius was doing more regularly top tournament spots than Tau.

Riptide wings were good but since wraithknight was even more bonkers meta went so that everybody was tossing firepower to take out wraithknight and riptide went down even easier than that...And outside riptides they didn't have anything to aim tournament top spots.

They were not weak army like orks but hardly busted good. More like 4th/5th best faction.

What you're saying is pretty much the definition of a top-tier army -- maybe they couldn't quite hang with CWE (and I don't even know if I would concede that point), but they certainly were plenty competitive with those other top tier lists. Just saying -- Tau players have had what, 5 months of suboptimal choices. Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines and Guard have had decades of basement dwelling between them. I conceded that Tau are not in a great spot now, but it's revisionist history to say that they weren't blowing most lists away without breaking a sweat.

My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.

Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.

And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.

And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.

They're basic infantry. That's fine. What are you expecting?

M.

 Brutallica wrote:
Well...
So by all means GW, nerf them even further when their codex arrives. Make EVERYTHING equally "worthless". Keep riptide where it is, so we know who plays for fun and cool units, and who plays...

No that would be dumb. And unfair.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My lord people. I was commenting originally on how an 8pt unit with a 30" str 5 gun that can huddle in cover for a 3+ save is really, really good. That's all. This fact is independent of tac marines.

And you ignored everything else, like that they're sitll only T3, LD 6, or 7 with a Sgt upgrade, and BS4+.

They're basic infantry. That's fine. What are you expecting?

M.

My point wasn't that they're not unstoppable but that Martel is overlooking their flaws.