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Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 22:13:49
I think there is a remarkable difference between 8th and 7th. Seventh was confussing because they didn't stop producing supplements with new rules, formations, and trash that did not matter to anyone but if it was broken you had to use it if you wanted to be competitive.
On the contrary, in 8th ... What have they put out there in the form of rules? Index and Codex. Point. CA is nothing more than a change of points, I do not think that such a thing confuses anyone. And all Errata and FAQ's? Yes, they can be confusing, but they are free things to try to balance the game.
That's why I think you can not compare the current state of 8th with 7th, because although they do not stop tweaking things, the nature of how they do it and most importantly, the goal, is incredibly different.
GW has already confirmed in Twitch that they are just looking to avoid this dance of rules in 8th. From now on there will be 3 large annual balance patches.
They will make 2 annual FAQ's, one every 6 months: One in March, after the Adepticon tournament, and another one after September, after the NOVA OPEN.
Then there will also be a Chapter Approved per year. A 30$ dollar book a year.
And thats it. What you can get will be things like campaigns, etc ... that put new units, but nothing more. There will not be the madness of formations and weird rules in 400 books as in seventh. Any new unit that they produce, will bring the rules in the box to use them and the points will be free on the web as they have done with the Primaris units to be able to use them.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Brutallica wrote: Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
Brutallica wrote: Seeing Chapter Approved points changes and material, i lost hope... Gonna have a break from 8th, and have a loooong hard think about where to go next hobbywise.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
No more than Traitor Legions did for CSM in 7th Ed.
This notion of fragmentation is strange, because I was given to understand a released codex replaced index rules. Otherwise AM would still (and rightly so!) use the Index Commissar. Nerfing would literally be pointless in the Codex if you could mix and match index and codex.
I myself have gotten by with the Codex (40 USD) and Battle Primer (0 USD), and asking a couple questions (0 USD), for my Eldar army. It's not like finding out the detachments are hard. You can friggin' Google them. Hell, GW provided the information on the Patrol, Battalion, and Brigade Detachments, so there's 60 USD off right there for the book. Oh, and 25 USD for the Index with my previous point. Save money, live better: common sense.
Now for DA, yes, I have the Index, and I'll have to buy the codex when it comes out. But that's no different from CSM in 7th buying Traitor Legions because it helped their struggling army because CSM in 7th ed base was *terrible*. I'm divided on this. On one hand, casual players that want a low price of entry can do so with the Index--which is about half the Codex's price. People that dived into 8th Ed though and are willing to shell out whatever will be buying the Index and Codex--possibly for multiple armies. The fact I've spent extra money on a stopgap is not lost on me. However, I'm invested in the game, so this doesn't surprise me.
In either case, that's about 65 USD to play the game at launch, or 40 USD to pick up the rules for an army? To run complicated detachments such as a Vanguard + Spearhead + Air Wing?
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
That, alongside extreme "color in the lines" armybuilding due to canned synergy combos ("Hurfdurt, I take Herne&Jonne with Madhammer cuz dey get da most of da Blastiness. I iz so smart") was enough to dissuade me from trying the game beyond a few VASSAL runs in MkII.
Granted, when I did try MkII, I enjoyed saying polemic stuff like calling Exemplar Errants Tactical Marines and such.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/26 15:32:53
I'm the opposite; I loved the rules of Warmahordes, it was the complex interactions and "gotchas" that soured me because it literally hurt my brain to comprehend all of them. 40k on the other hand feels simple, almost stupidly so; just roll a bunch of dice and remove models. The problem is the balance gulf in 40k is bordering on/crossing into ridiculous, where you can literally lose games because you like X models instead of Y models.
MagicJuggler wrote: Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
How is that literally any different to what GW is doing with certain units now? Looking at you Screamer Killers and the Knight variants.
MagicJuggler wrote: Warmachines critically lacks that Your Dudes Factor though. Rather than "build-a-warcaster," everyone is a Special Character. Rather than having custom Warjacks (Chassis, two arm weapons, Cortex Modulus), every Charger uses a Hammer, every Firefly a Glaive, etc. Of course, the game also has limited unit loadouts (Bespoke Weapon Attachments, UAs, etc).
How is that literally any different to what GW is doing with certain units now? Looking at you Screamer Killers and the Knight variants.
Sadly, it really isn't. This is one of the main things that has soured me on 8th, and parts of 7th to a lesser extent. Like, does every Genestealer Primus have a standard-issue Needle Pistol, does every Magus have a standard-issue Autopistol and Stave? What was funny about that codex was it had an "armory" page, but the non-relic/vehicle sections were only used by one unit in the entire codex!
Really, GW should do away with the OOP models. People have had long enough to use them and they're still perfectly good showpieces. Almost all my Rogue Trader era eldar became obsolete 10 years ago. They're a business, and supporting OOP models - that went OOP because nobody was buying them - is a bad business decision.
I get it that people love their certain special minis, but GW isn't evil for retiring old stuff, and aren't obligated to support everything forever. Older editions still exist with the rules for those minis, people can play oldhammer if they like.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
Knight
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/26 16:39:48
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/26 17:15:53
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm and at that only certain themes are considered good.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
EDIT: And honestly I prefer Malifaux and Infinity over both but no one around here plays them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/26 17:19:58
I'd suggest games like Fast and Dirty and No Limits, but FAD has gone out of support (and the rules sold to some publishing company...need to check back up on that), and nobody is going to jump ship to a new, indie game without much following with you.
Their main thing is total customization - you have the math that dictates what a unit should cost based on the stats.
For 15mm, Gruntz was standard. I bought the book but come to think I never actually read it...no one here is going to jump ship from Warhammer.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
Yeah. Not so much. Clearly you haven't been looking at any of the new models. There are 13 different factions with hundreds of options and unique aesthetics to each faction.
That's also not to mention the fact that your statement of opinion has nothing to do with what I was referencing, or referring to. Last time I checked, this thread was about rules, not models and/or conversion.
Knight
Guy said theres no balanced game with models as diverse as 40k and hes right and I stated Warmahordes isn't comparably diverse and is actually pretty ugly.
Now keep in mind I didn't attack the game itself and I already stated that I own 5 armies (Khador, Cygnar, Legion, Circle and Cyriss) and these aren't small armies either. I have everything in the Cyriss range including two Prime Axioms, one of nearly everything for Khador and Legion including an Archangel despite it being rubbish on the table and nearly half of the Circle range and a good chunk of Cygnar including a Stormwall and I NEARLY started Grymkin but decided it was too expensive (so I started an AdMech army instead). The models they're coming out with NOW are good, but thats only in the last two years or so. Theres still hundreds of ugly models over the whole line.
But I just invested thousands of dollers into the game so my subjective opinion holds no weight. The game itself is great. Love it. But when I sit down to paint I HATE painting Warmahordes models compared to 40k. I have a friend who paints commissions of mainly both 40k and Warmahordes and he feels the same as me. Judging from the amount of commisons he does for the local Warmahordes community they hate it as well.
Except that's it's not true that warmachine and hordes aren't as diverse as 40k. The majority of the 40k games played involve space marines on one flavor or another. Warmachine and hordes has no one army that's favored over any other.
Except Cygnar is favored by devs and Warmachine in general is favored by the devs over Hordes. Warmachine is basically humans vs human. Blue humans, red humans, religious humans, mercenary human and Not AdMech humans. Also elves. Even Hordes which is easily the more interesting game has a human faction. So to claim the game is more diverse when half of the factions are differently themed humans is just plain wrong.
Instead of buying a generic dreadnought and adding specific weapon options, you get specific weapon options on a single chassis that have different names. This makes it possible to actually balance the game.
In the case of dreadnaughts/jacks its EXACTLY the same. Both are big robots with different arms you choose between and it clearly isn't balanced since certain jacks are far more common than others. Khador players take loads of maurauders and juggernauts for example, any jack that shoots is left to the wayside becausecthey aren't as effective. Cygnar is basically Centurions and Stormwall if I remember?
Claiming that your spending thousands of dollars in a game gives gives your opinion any more weight than any others is the logical fallacy of the false appeal to authority. Again, this thread is about rules, not models. I've been playing the game since late 2004. That doesn't give my opinion any more weight. I'm stating facts, not giving opinion or using hyperbole. There are as many, if not more, options to playing warmachine and hordes armies as there are 40k. The game is extremely balanced, and getting even better, and the rules are getting even better. If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine, but saying that the models are "horrible" is not only your subjective opinion, but it also has no meaning.
AGAIN, the guy wanted a balanced game with A DIVERSITY OF MODELS. I stated Warmachine does not have much diversity compared to WH4K. Claiming Warmachine has more options than 40k is straight out false. Especially given how much more competitve Warmahordes is and you're expected to only take certain models. It's also compounded now that theme forces are expected to be the norm and at that only certain themes are considered good.
As far as painting, I much prefer warmachine and hordes. After painting the same marine with a different weapon the 45th time, it gets old. At least with warmachine and horde there are many truly unique models and units, not just another marine with a different gun.
You're acting like Warmahordes doesn't have a load of samey models. Each 10 man unit has 4 different variations if you're lucky. The Man'o'War units for Khador are basically 5 identicle models. Same with Uhlans, Winter Guard, Errants etc Each generic jack is the same chassis with different arms. Even the solos and CAs are LITERALLY a variant of the unit model with a different weapon. Don't claim to be stating facts then claim that Warmahordes is terribly more diverse. There's a reason I only own one of each unit in most of my armies.
Knight
This thread isn't about Warmahordes vs WH4K though so I'm going to stop here.
EDIT: And honestly I prefer Malifaux and Infinity over both but no one around here plays them.
[/spoiler]
Dude. Seriously. Just stop. The more you talk, the more you prove that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
There's absolutely no evidence that the devs favor Cygnar. They're not even the "top faction" inn the tournament scent, at the moment. That's Cryx. Cygnar may be the main protagonist in the main story, but there's absolutely nothing pointing to them being favored by the devs.
Yeah. Cygnar is all humans. Except for the ogryns, bogrin, and trollkin and dog in the army. Kahdor actually is all nothing but humans, except for the dog. The protectorate, being the xenophobic creator of man worshippers, is entirely human. Cryx has everything from human pirates, undead pirates, liches, undead birds, human zombies, ogryn/ trollkin zombies, satyxis pirates, black ogryn pirates and blighted trollkin. Yeah, Cryx it's all humans too... right. Then there's the Retribution of Scyrah that has no humans. But they're just humans with pointy ears, so they're the same too, I guess. Then there's the convergence of Cyriss which is mostly clockwork models. There are some humans in that faction to, so i guess they're all the same as well. Oh, let's not forget the mercenaries. I mean there are dwarves, trollkin, ogrun, gobbers and elves, but those are just short humans, large humans, short ugly humans, large ugly humans and humans with pointy ears. All the same. Yup. That's not to mention the six hordes factions.
I also didn't realize that all human armies are the same. So I guess its just just humans, tau, eldar, necrons, and tyranids in 40k. Because space marines, chaos marines, astra militarum, adeptus custodes, sisters of silence, adeptis mechanicus, and the inquisition are all just different flavors of humans. Nope. No diversity whatsoever.
You're clueless. There are tons of options for both games. Both games are equally diverse. You don't have a clue, and you're proving it with idiotic statements like "the archangel sucks. "
Knight
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/26 21:46:42
It's really rather astonishing that GW hasn't just moved to providing all rules online for free so that they can simply update whichever part needs updating. Do it piecemeal as you finalise most of the army lists and then do it once every other month. Then they can introduce new units and characters whenever they feel like it without worrying about putting them in a book.
Spend some money and effort on a good app for rules and army building in addition to the basic PDFs and you could really be talking a major revival. GW has the resources and name recognition to pull it off.
If they want to sell physical books they could make background and art books that are really luxurious to appeal to the die-hard fans of specific armies.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Rosebuddy wrote: It's really rather astonishing that GW hasn't just moved to providing all rules online for free so that they can simply update whichever part needs updating. Do it piecemeal as you finalise most of the army lists and then do it once every other month. Then they can introduce new units and characters whenever they feel like it without worrying about putting them in a book.
[...]
If they want to sell physical books they could make background and art books that are really luxurious to appeal to the die-hard fans of specific armies.
This is honestly how I expected 8th Edition to go too - with rules for units included in the boxes (which would also be free online), the books would be there for people who wanted the background info and the artwork etc. I felt that when the basic rules came out online they made a huge step forward, and with model rules included in the box as a "ready to throw on the table" gesture. Just seems that they need to make one more step forward. It would definitely drive model sales because, as we see almost constantly, a tweak to points values or a change in a special rule and people are dumping their suddenly non-competitive models by the boatload, ready to rush out and buy whatever the latest "most powerful" unit/faction is.
I think they're tending in the right direction, but old habits die hard. Heck, I still remember the dark old days when you couldn't GET the rulebook without buying the damned boxed game, regardless of if you wanted the two starter armies or not!
This is honestly how I expected 8th Edition to go too - with rules for units included in the boxes (which would also be free online), the books would be there for people who wanted the background info and the artwork etc.
Same; indeed, I remember back in 4e digging up some old Russ its on eBay and finding what I presume to be the 2e rules for them in the box - rather liked the idea. As is, most of the players I've known don't really give a fig about the story - it's just cool models, backed with just a real high-level understanding of the faction in question.
Curiously, my Infantry squad boxes only have the rules for the infantry squads themselves - nothing for Conscripts. I also wonder if the adjusted rules / stat values would ever find their way into the boxes, or if they're effectively obsolete after a few months.
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Damn. Did i start that?
I dont like warma/hordes from an aesthetical PoV but thats subjective of course. I dont think there are nearly as many factions and unique sculpts as 40k has, and i was under tje assumption that its usually ("best") played with less than 50 miniatures on the table. Is any of that incorrect?
Cheeslord wrote: True powergamers will want the best versions from each book however.
For example the Horrors in the Index can be spammed for super-cheap Smite units that clog up the battlefield. This was"fixed" in the CSM codex a bit (and I assume it will be so in the Daemons codex). But That Guy will take them from the index, and everything else from the codex...
This is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The FAQs are pretty clear that if there is a new version of a given datasheet in a Codex, the newer version should be used. I would consider purposefully using a prior edition of a datasheet for in game advantage to be a form of cheating. I'm not a power gamer or a cheater. The current discussion is simply about how many rules sources are needed and the related expense to run a simple army "correctly" in today's 8th Edition.
It can get a little complex in what is legal, what is cheesey, and what is fine.
Consider an Autarch on a Bike with a Missile Launcher. If someone always had it modeled, and always liked playing it, they should still play it. But they shouldn't take the Hunter trait with it to casual games.
On the other hand, if someone saw that FAQ, then cobbled togetehr something they could call an Autarch on a Bike with a Missile Launcher, and took Hunter every game to snipe characters... I would certainly call that cheese. And not like it. Regardless of whether it's OP, it's clearly attempting to exploit a loophole.
You can't really have rules that allow the first case but not the second. So the rules now default to "Well, we don't support those rules anymore, but it would be BS to tell you you can't do it...".
Put another way, the rules defaulted to being permissive to allowing models people already have to be played. But the rules can't specify "If you already own X" for various (good) reasons.
Best option would be to include all options in the Codex (still unhappy about that). But allowing Index options is better than not.
(I play my Sunrifle as Hawk's talon now - which feels very wrong to me. I miss my Sunrifle. But I play casually, and figure my opponents would prefer I not use the Index.)
Kriswall wrote: That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.
Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?
Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"
Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.
I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.
Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
You should check out Warmachine and Hordes. While not perfectly balanced, every army has viable options, and it's getting closer to balance with every CID (community integrated development) cycle. New models, and older models, move into a playtest period that is cycling through the factions. The rules are truly free for both the main book http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/game-rules-errata. You can also print the current version of the cards four individual models and units here, Http://cards.privateerpress.com, for free. There's also an app called war room 2. It has all the rules, in a searchable and indexed form, and for a nominal fee ($9 per faction) you can use the app for all rules referencing, list building, and damage tacking for the entirety of this edition of the game. Fist two editions lasted around 5 years each.
So yes, the game you're looking for does exist. You also don't need your opponents permission to play with the large centerpiece models, either. They're actually balanced.
Knight
Warmachine models are almost all horrible both in sculpt and production though and have very few oppertunities for conversion or personalisation. And I'm saying this as someone who has 5 Warmahorde armies. Warmahordes is can't even see GW in terms of model variety, looks and diversity they're so far behind.
could not disagree with you more on the assessment of the model quality, I have found it to be the exact opposite.
Damn. Did i start that?
I dont like warma/hordes from an aesthetical PoV but thats subjective of course. I dont think there are nearly as many factions and unique sculpts as 40k has, and i was under tje assumption that its usually ("best") played with less than 50 miniatures on the table. Is any of that incorrect?
If you don't like the aesthetic, that's fine. As far as the rest, almost everything you stated is incorrect.
There are 13 faction, 14 next year, between the two games. Each faction has different warcasters or warlocks that change how you want to play the army. Each faction also has themes that are essentially sub-factions that change the way you want to play your army, as well. The smallest factions have about 35 model or unit entries. The main factions have around 100 model or unit entries. Each model or unit entry has one or more unique sculpts.
There is no one "best" way to play an army. Each caster wants to play differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. Some run their battlegrounds better, while others support troops better. It all depends on how you want to play your army.
A typical game is played at 75 points. A 75 point army can have as few as 10 models or as many as 100 and will last about 2 hours.
One other big difference is that in Warmachine, you can build nearly any army archtype from any faction. There are some gaps (Cygnar can't do heavy infantry, while cryx can't do gunline), but there are plenty of ways to play each faction. unfortunately, that means there's a lot of overlap.
As I said - I AM asking, so thanks for the clarification Knight. As I said - I don't like the aesthetics, so it's pretty unfortunate that the core game play appears to be something I might enjoy. I always thought of it as a "you get 1 big thingy and a few tiny guys and that's it" kind of game, which didn't sound appealing at all. But I'm glad there is an alternative at all.
6000 World Eaters/Khorne 
