Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galas wrote:
Sgt_Smudge has already answered you, and the most consistend wound of a lasgun in a unarmored human flesh is the explosion of entire limbs by overheating the liquid fluids of the body, but that a Megathule is equivalent to a Megajoule was said by a BL author. Of course you can say thats isn't canon. And I'll say, ok. At the end of the day Warhammer40k is very inconsistend and one day a Lasgun explodes a Dreadnought and other day it just stings like a bee.

Even your claim here falls well short of "destroying bunkers with single shots" levels of firepower. And your own links about lasgun firepower include descriptions of a lasgun causing non-fatal wounds that sound very much like the level of wounds a real-world rifle might inflict.

Now, answering again the first question. I think we can't do anything agaisn't any Warhammer40k force. We have no space defenses and no space offensive capabilities. Any kind of Nuke we can launch will just be stoped by their void shields or equivalents. They can bombard us to death without anything we can do to stop them.

The scenario in the OP specifically excludes space assets from shooting.

Yes, if you take away the biggest advantages that 40k factions have over modern-day militaries than we would stand a chance.
Of course, if a 40k faction would really invade a planet like Earth, then they wouldn't limit themselves like that. Therefore this discussion is moot.

Apart from that, what Vaktathi says also is very true, and it makes this kind of discussion really useless. The 40k universe is a work of fiction and operates on different laws than our world. If the 40k faction invades our world, do they work according to 40k physics or according to real world physics?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Sgt_Smudge has already answered you, and the most consistend wound of a lasgun in a unarmored human flesh is the explosion of entire limbs by overheating the liquid fluids of the body, but that a Megathule is equivalent to a Megajoule was said by a BL author. Of course you can say thats isn't canon. And I'll say, ok. At the end of the day Warhammer40k is very inconsistend and one day a Lasgun explodes a Dreadnought and other day it just stings like a bee.

Even your claim here falls well short of "destroying bunkers with single shots" levels of firepower. And your own links about lasgun firepower include descriptions of a lasgun causing non-fatal wounds that sound very much like the level of wounds a real-world rifle might inflict.

Now, answering again the first question. I think we can't do anything agaisn't any Warhammer40k force. We have no space defenses and no space offensive capabilities. Any kind of Nuke we can launch will just be stoped by their void shields or equivalents. They can bombard us to death without anything we can do to stop them.

The scenario in the OP specifically excludes space assets from shooting.

I have never claimed that a lasgun can destroy a bunker with a single shot. I was talking about overcharged shots agaisn't a modern day tank. I'll say that a Dreadnought is probably tougther than a modern day tank.
And yes, just as I said, the inconsistence in warhammer40k does futile this kind of discussion, because for every "One space marine killed 10.000 orks alone!" theres one "A Chaos Cultists killed a Space Marine in power armour with a iron-stick"

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I'm honestly not that afraid of 40k weaponry since the majority of it only has a range of 96 feet. Even the longest range weaponry (120" on tabletop) is a pitiful 480 ft.

Reaching back aways for this, but in 40k distance is an abstraction and doesn't scale directly with model size.

Same way that a Rhine can't fit 10 Marines in it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Of course, if a 40k faction would really invade a planet like Earth, then they wouldn't limit themselves like that. Therefore this discussion is moot.

The weaponry on their ships has been disabled due to prior combat but they proceed with their mission to conquer earth.

Just go with the query rather than try to poke holes in it.

IandI wrote:
In order to make it even remotely fair, assume the 40k faction cannot just obliterate us all from space. Their fleet assets can deliver ground troops and equipment only. The 40k faction does have access to all the inter atmosphere aircraft and vehicles a force of their size would normally have plus a few superheavies.

An ork Waaagh of 50 million orks. (They can spawn more as normal.)

One chapter of Marines.

An Eldar Craftworld. (Honestly I don't know how many Eldar warriors and vehicles a Craftworld has, but I assume it's a few hundred thousand guys and a couple hundred tanks and planes.)

30 regiments of Imperial Guard.

A splinter fleet of Tyranids numbering about 50 million creatures. (They can make more as normal.)

A Tau expansion fleet. (They are not here to negotiate, just kill)

1000 Chaos Marines. (Limited Daemonic support)

I'm going to say we survive except against Tyranids, Chaos, and maybe Tau because of air power. It doesn't seem like any of these 40k groups would have enough air assets to deal with the thousands and thousands of tactical aircraft that inhabit 2017 Earth. I think they would do solid work on the ground against infantry and tanks, but I doubt power armor and bolters would hold up long against repeated missile barrages from drones flying 30,000 feet up. Tyranids could probably just crash gargoyles into jet engines to silence the threat while happily gobbling up biomass to produce more gribblies. Chaos could subvert huge chunks of the population or riddle them with disease. Tau seem like they would be capable of blasting a lot of planes out of the sky to even up the ground war.

What's your take dakka?

We survive against and win against them all except Tyranids and the Tau Expansion fleet.

No 1 chapter or a 1000 space marines is conquering the world.

Orks can be outsmarted and eventually contained.

An eldar craft world + 30 regiments of imperial guard are not high enough in numbers to conquer every inch of the planet

Adamantium, by today's understanding it's indestructible, im going off another universes interpretation of it as it exists in the "modern" world where "modern" weapons simply do nothing to it, it's a stretch but if 40k adamantium is the same stuff, then by extension nothing we have can even hurt it.

Space marine armour uses it, so do there tanks, so if the above statement is true, we literally have nothing that can destroy them. That's a big advantage.

 Formosa wrote:
Adamantium, by today's understanding it's indestructible, im going off another universes interpretation of it as it exists in the "modern" world where "modern" weapons simply do nothing to it, it's a stretch but if 40k adamantium is the same stuff, then by extension nothing we have can even hurt it.

Space marine armour uses it, so do there tanks, so if the above statement is true, we literally have nothing that can destroy them. That's a big advantage.

the problem is we have ample evidence and examples of it being defeated by stuff that has very real modern day equivalents. Stuff like large Choppas wielded with enough force, autocannons, stubbers, mortars, grenades, etc.

People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet. Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders. Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

Orbital superiority isn't. Void shields might make an issue, though...no idea how they hold up against missiles.

M.

The reality is that 40k space assets make even 40k ground battles pointless. So taking them out of the equation is only natural in the discussion.

Ground elements of modern war are actually far superior to 40k setting ground elelments. Our tanks for example don't lose accuracy by moving. We are perfectly happy to let all of our boys throw as many grenades as we like and we also prefer to use guns even if someone is trying to slash us with a sword. Shooting over the horizon is no problem with satellite guided munitions with basically a 100% kill rate if they are on target.

 Infantryman wrote:
Orbital superiority isn't. Void shields might make an issue, though...no idea how they hold up against missiles.

M.

I think some Battlefleet Gothic stuff had torpedoes and attack craft bypassing void shields but other fluff has them halt it.

Between void shields and defensive fighters I don't really see many missiles from earth hitting 40K space ships even assuming they're in relatively close orbit.

Xenomancers wrote:Shooting over the horizon is no problem with satellite guided munitions with basically a 100% kill rate if they are on target.

In fairness satellites would be fairly easy to shoot down by 40K factions.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Adamantium, by today's understanding it's indestructible, im going off another universes interpretation of it as it exists in the "modern" world where "modern" weapons simply do nothing to it, it's a stretch but if 40k adamantium is the same stuff, then by extension nothing we have can even hurt it.

Space marine armour uses it, so do there tanks, so if the above statement is true, we literally have nothing that can destroy them. That's a big advantage.

the problem is we have ample evidence and examples of it being defeated by stuff that has very real modern day equivalents. Stuff like large Choppas wielded with enough force, autocannons, stubbers, mortars, grenades, etc.

What are the auto cannon rounds made from? Stubber ammo? Mortar shells can kill from over pressure, making the armour redundant, same with grenades, what caliber is the mortar ? How do we not know the ork background psychic nature isn't affecting how they fight space marines ? How strong is an actual ork?

We make assumptions on all of this and some claim it as fact, a 40k assault rifle is identical to a modern one because it looks the same and uses bullets, it appears to apply damage in a similar manner, so it must be he same, at least I added the caveat that I was making a stretch.

So no, that "evidence" is just as worthless as my anecdotal statement, I am not claiming it to be a fact though as I understand that we don't have any solid information about it, a good example is bolt rounds, .75 caliber and yet can be stopped by guard flak armour that looks similar to modern body armour.

So I suppose we get to my point or lack of one anyway, we don't know what sci fi space wizardry goes into the creation of these weapons, they may seem primitive by modern standards but still be eons ahead of us in every way, like an arrow that can destroy a challenger, we look at it and laugh, it's so primitive and we have seen what arrows can do, but somehow this super magic space arrow took it out clean, because that's the story, that's the setting.

So no, modern earth could not stand up to any 40k army, because space magic and wizards off camera!

Without the normal orbital support they bring, we'd probably be ok. Except maybe Tyranids and depending on your fluff, Necrons. We'd win against Orks, but we'd never really get rid of them. Orks and Tyranids can multiply quickly, and some fiction indicates Necrons don't need a spacecraft to supply reinforcements.

But in "reality" most factions will also have a spacecraft, and in that case we pretty much auto-lose.

Also, this assumes meeting in the field like 1700s line infantry - much like the tabletop game.

For many of the threats, we wouldn't even necessarily know they're there.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet. Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders. Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

Not that I'm being all 'humanity...feth yeah!', but it might be worth reading up on guerilla fighters such as the Viet-cong and a little about the generations-long conflicts still raging in the Middle East before you decide how far peoples' will to resist will take them.

An alien force zapping in and assassinating leadership is likely to do little other than martyr them. It's a viable tactic when you're talking strategic generals, but fails miserably when it comes to charismatic politica leaders.

Only way would be to use their influence to goad locals into fighting for them.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet. Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders. Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

Not that I'm being all 'humanity...feth yeah!', but it might be worth reading up on guerilla fighters such as the Viet-cong and a little about the generations-long conflicts still raging in the Middle East before you decide how far peoples' will to resist will take them.

An alien force zapping in and assassinating leadership is likely to do little other than martyr them. It's a viable tactic when you're talking strategic generals, but fails miserably when it comes to charismatic politica leaders.

Only way would be to use their influence to goad locals into fighting for them.

are you mad, Zap into the white house, kill everyone, zap into the senate and wipe them out, watch as Merica rips itself apart, move on to next planet and Earth enters its first Nuke war, guard arrive on a planet that is covered in Rad mutants, wipes them out, no one left to remember the "real" world, world is resettled and everyone wonders why its named after dirt.

Also, it really matters whether one of the Space Marines, Orks or whatever other 40k faction is invading is the main character of the story, or if one of the people on earth is the main character.
Realistically speaking, the side with the main character wins. That is the most important law deciding conflicts involving 40k factions.
Basically, to predict the outcome of a conflict, you only need to know in which codex or book the story is going to be printed. All other details are fun but ultimately irrelevant.

Zapping in and killing central leadership would send us into disarray. They could keep it going for a very, very long time with superior mobility.

Some of the factions could do much better. Start a Genestealer cult. Replace leadership. Push terrestrial powers into a war with each other. Run a puppet for president.

Some factions can do this better than others.

Any of them can defeat us by simply targeting and destroying the infrastructure we need. Feeding 7 billion people isn't easy.

In addition, Tau, Tyranids and Eldar have more than enough numbers to crush us the old fashioned way.

 Formosa wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Adamantium, by today's understanding it's indestructible, im going off another universes interpretation of it as it exists in the "modern" world where "modern" weapons simply do nothing to it, it's a stretch but if 40k adamantium is the same stuff, then by extension nothing we have can even hurt it.

Space marine armour uses it, so do there tanks, so if the above statement is true, we literally have nothing that can destroy them. That's a big advantage.

the problem is we have ample evidence and examples of it being defeated by stuff that has very real modern day equivalents. Stuff like large Choppas wielded with enough force, autocannons, stubbers, mortars, grenades, etc.

What are the auto cannon rounds made from?

Seemingly explosive shells largely analagous to modern day ones by every account GW has ever given that I can find, they arent described as using particularly interesting materials or having exceptional armor penetration ability.

Stubber ammo?

By all accounts I can find, the same stuff modern bullets are made from, or worse. They are described, portrayed, and represented as identical to modern day weaponry.

Ork Shootas and Underhive gangers probably arnet using tungsten carbide adamantium wundermetals

Mortar shells can kill from over pressure,

two things here.

First, if marines are still vulnerable to overpessure this way, then any modern explosive will be perfectly effective against them, and they'll die to bombs, rockets, artillery, tank shells, etc that are form the majority of killing power on modern battlefields.

Second, at least in Storm of Iron, an IG infantry mortar is portrayed killing an Iron Warriors siege engineer and penetrating his armor with a direct hit.

How do we not know the ork background psychic nature isn't affecting how they fight space marines ? How strong is an actual ork?

By every account and every rule system and fluff description I have available, ork psychic background stuff has no bearing on the power of the weapon, rather its operation (e.g. they tend to go "click" and not "bang" in non Ork hands) and Ork strength is portrayed as above normal human level but not beyond match by the strongest of normal humans.

We make assumptions on all of this and some claim it as fact, a 40k assault rifle is identical to a modern one because it looks the same and uses bullets, it appears to apply damage in a similar manner, so it must be he same, at least I added the caveat that I was making a stretch.

looking over the old 2E Wargear book, FW books detailing things like Vraksian renegade stubbers, the FFG RPG books, etc, there appears to be no particular mention of exotic stubber ammo materials or the like being in common use (such ammo is available but is represented as being special and rare), but lots of commentary about how such weapons are ancient and tried and true designs popping up in the most remote, underdeveloped, material poor, last ditch, etc situations and places like underhive gangs and underdeveloped planets and the like.

So no, that "evidence" is just as worthless as my anecdotal statement

aside from the fact that most of the weapons ive listed are never described as using exotic materials for projectiles and in fact are represented as very similar to modern weapons by GW.

I am not claiming it to be a fact though as I understand that we don't have any solid information about it, a good example is bolt rounds, .75 caliber and yet can be stopped by guard flak armour that looks similar to modern body armour

caliber alone doesnt tell us squat about its ability to defeat armor. In fact, what you generally want to defeat armor is a small buller going very fast, concentrating a lot of force over a small surface area. A 7.62mm Tokarev round will sail through a Level IIIA vest like butter, but that same vest will stop a larger and more powerful 9x19mm round every time. There's a video on Youtube (by Iraqveteran8888, a ridiculous gun channel) where they shoot an actual cannon at a modern body armor vest and it doesnt penetrate (though youd still be dead from the kinetic impact ).

More to the point, however, a bolter rounds killing power in this instance comes from the explosive, not the size of the shell, which something like Flak armor could be effective against if the shot were not dead on. A bolter round hitting the pillar 6" away from you might injure an unarmored person bad enough to pull them out of a fight or even kill if shrapnel found the right spot, but flak armor might save them. Blast concussion would probably kill on a direct hit no matter what.

So I suppose we get to my point or lack of one anyway, we don't know what sci fi space wizardry goes into the creation of these weapons, they may seem primitive by modern standards but still be eons ahead of us in every way,

So much of 40k is primitive however. Thats part of the setting. They have starships that turn gun turrets by having chain gangs of slaves literally turning giant cogwheels. Even the technowizardry of the Eldar and Tau has nothing like a modern beyond-visual-range anti aircraft missile capable of engaging a target over a hundred miles away, or stuff like radar guided counterbattery artillery fire, AWACS, GPS guided artillery, hell even Night Vision equipment that is available to every vehicle and soldier in the US military is relatively rare in 40k. Laser guided ordnance thats been available for decades in the real world appears to be in use with only one faction in 40k. Again, a modern MBT can move at highway speeds over rough ground at night and hit another tank also moving at speed over a thousand meters away more than 90% of the time, find me a faction in 40k that can do that

like an arrow that can destroy a challenger, we look at it and laugh, it's so primitive and we have seen what arrows can do, but somehow this super magic space arrow took it out clean, because that's the story, that's the setting.

what you've just described is a modern APFSDS armor piercing round that we are very familiar with in the real world

So no, modern earth could not stand up to any 40k army, because space magic and wizards off camera!

which makes the discussion impossible to have though

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet.

Hence why we're setting aside space assets as it makes the conversation pointless otherwise, and even in 40k they almost never use space assets the way people talk about them being used in this situation (makes for a much more boring tabletop ground based game )

Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders.

How to they know who the leaders are, and where they are, and is there enough space to teleport Terminators in? (A teleporting Terminator squad is probably not going to fit into an office building or something like the Pentagon without rematerializing halfway into an office door, cubicle wall, a desk, etc)

This is something usually overlooked in 40k. In most stories, the enemy is magically known in full detail ahead of time, as is seemingly location information, orders of battle, etc without any reason why they'd actually know of of that.

Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

how do the psykers know who these leaders are, get within range, and do their stuff? How are they going to prevent safeguards or advisors from stopping what would probably appear to be irrational and sudden insane actions? A Librarian cant just sit in orbit, divine exactlt who the enemy leaders are, and magically find exactly who they need and control them like a puppet from there...thats not been a thing in any 40k fluff ever as far as I can recall.

 Vaktathi wrote:


This is something usually overlooked in 40k. In most stories, the enemy is magically known in full detail ahead of time, as is seemingly location information, orders of battle, etc without any reason why they'd actually know of of that.

Presumably the factions in 40k have ways of gathering intelligence. Of course, precisely what and how will probably never get shown because 'there is only war' and pretty much everything is focused on combat only. Same reason we have little idea what food or toilets look like in 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The basic lasgun has 19 Megathules of power in everyone of their shots as stated by the 3.5 edition Guard Codex. A Megathule is the equivalent of a Megajoule.

Uh, no. First of all, you have no justification for making that equivalence. The fact that two words sound kind of similar does not mean they are identical in meaning. Second, lasguns do not have bunker-destroying firepower because we have seen the effects of lasguns on unarmored human flesh. They don't vaporize a whole soldier and carve a crater in the hill behind him, they cause wounds roughly on par with real-world rifles. The inescapable conclusion here is that "megathule" and "megajoule" are not equivalent, and lasguns are effectively real-world rifles with much better logistics.

This. If anything, autoguns, like bolters, are superior tactically because of their versatility. But on a grand scale and logistically, the lasgun is a better choice.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet. Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders. Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

Not that I'm being all 'humanity...feth yeah!', but it might be worth reading up on guerilla fighters such as the Viet-cong and a little about the generations-long conflicts still raging in the Middle East before you decide how far peoples' will to resist will take them.

An alien force zapping in and assassinating leadership is likely to do little other than martyr them. It's a viable tactic when you're talking strategic generals, but fails miserably when it comes to charismatic politica leaders.

Only way would be to use their influence to goad locals into fighting for them.

are you mad, Zap into the white house, kill everyone, zap into the senate and wipe them out, watch as Merica rips itself apart, move on to next planet and Earth enters its first Nuke war, guard arrive on a planet that is covered in Rad mutants, wipes them out, no one left to remember the "real" world, world is resettled and everyone wonders why its named after dirt.

Precisely the assumption the Americans have made every single time they've gone into the middle east (with a similarly great technological advantage over the local forces).

Don't see the middle east being particularly 'pacified', even after those 'lighting strikes to cut the head off the snake' have devolved into prolonged years-long conflicts with decentralised guerilla forces.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People who don't think a space marine chapter could conquer earth are vastly overestimating our will to resist and never account for the more esoteric weapons and tools at their disposal. Their fleet assets would annihilate the planet. Even without using the guns, they could use the teleportation bays to jump in, assassinate leaders. Rinse and repeat. Or Psykers using mind control could just force world leaders to launch nukes at each other. Etc., etc.

You are underestimating humanities will too fight out of 7 Billion + people there are simply too many stubborn bastards who will never stop fighting regardless if you assasinate their leaders.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Precisely the assumption the Americans have made every single time they've gone into the middle east (with a similarly great technological advantage over the local forces).

Don't see the middle east being particularly 'pacified', even after those 'lighting strikes to cut the head off the snake' have devolved into prolonged years-long conflicts with decentralised guerilla forces.

To be fair it'd be a lot easier with a 'scorch the earth if you resist us' policy. You do need numbers for that though.

In regards to marines, I'm still and always will be of the opinion that all they need to do is get one techmarine on a major US military installation, and the same for Russia and they will have IT technology so advanced they will be in full control of the majority nuclear arsenal in not a lot of time.

Another factor is how modern technology relies on being guided to targets. Yeah, the fleet assets cannot fire on the ground, but the thunderhawks don't have to even enter the atmosphere to cripple us. They can just spend a few hours sweeping satellites that are in orbit.

We have many dozens of examples in the lore of one species conquering the world of another. Be it Marines, Imperial Guard, Orks. Tyranids would obviously be the most direct (and have been evolved to this purpose), you can imagine Eldar or Tau being more surreptitious (using espionage or soft power) but the effect would be the same.

As for our technology level - again you have many examples given during the background books of worlds with extreme technology being conquered by the great crusade and the like. One particular example of background was the Mechanicum re-directing an asteroid to wipe out a planet where the technology was simply too advanced to overcome. We were never given an example of what exactly, but it must have been awesome if the combined might of Titan Legions, orbital strikes, Astartes etc. could not defeat them.

So, in short, within the game universe we would have no chance. Unless it was some Dark Eldar raiders come to collect slaves or some such like.

If we are talking about away from the science-fantasy that is 40k, then of course we would win, as they wouldn't exist

If they are non-Imperial, we, the humanity, can beat them easily. No matter who they are.

Imperium is a different story because it's humanity plus about 38,000 years of improvements that are geared towards warfare.

a 1,000 marines would kill themselves in minor accidents long before they could take over the world.

They certainly couldn't carry enough ammunition.

They could decapitate political and military leadership before they ended up in zoos though.

Orks go a bit day of the triffids with the whole fungus thing, Still I'm sure monsanto would enjoy the business