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Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

ritualnet wrote:
Do you think it will be possible to make a 500pt matched play force with just Custodes?

Low model count makes them very attractive to me, even though they look like stormcast with guns.

Also, will there be different paint schemes? I was thinking a ceramic white design?

Shield-Captain with a single squad of Custodian Guard nets you a patrol detachment and should be under 500.

It's gently implied there's no jetbike Vexilla bearer, but if there was that would only leave you with one spare bike I guess.

I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring

Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.

Raulengrin wrote:
New preview is up. Stratagems. Tanglefoot grenade seems like it will be useful, since custodes lack an effective screen from T1 charges.

I like that stratagem for exactly the opposite reason: It prevents an enemy unit from kiting away from deepstruck Custodian Guard or Terminators if they fail the first charge.

 Irbis wrote:
I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring

Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.

When you've got so few models, I guess anything which reduces the enemies effectiveness is gonna be welcome. Would I spend it on chaffe? Nah. But when beating up a lone character or enemy Elites? Absolutely. Why make it any easier for them than it absolutely has to be?

 Irbis wrote:
I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring

Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.

Proof it is better to be feared thrn loved?

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Hmm, that's a pity. I was planning to take a captain-on-bike with a min-sized squad of bikes and a single squad of Custodian Guard as a patrol detachment to take along with my Space Wolves (as "Primaris Space Wolves"). Although looking at the Custodes range the Custodes Wardens would make excellent SW Varagyr Terminators and the Contemptor-Galatus would make a cool bigger brother to the axe and shield dread... so maybe I will play SW with more Custodes rules and models than actual SW ones for a bit

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...

I don't know... somehow The Fallen (Of Dark Angels fame) manage to become GOVERNORS of entire worlds without the rest of the populace noticing, or just hiding out in Hives and such. They're not that much more human looking than Custodes. So hardly unprecedented. Though I'd love to know how they make it work in both groups' cases.

That said, didn't one of the Custodians in a Heresy novel use some form of holo-field to disguise himself right down to his size while infiltrating in the Blood Games? Because that could easily be the sort of stuff they bring with, even if they do give up their war gear.

 Dulahan wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...

I don't know... somehow The Fallen (Of Dark Angels fame) somehow manage to become GOVERNORS of entire worlds without the rest of the populace noticing, or just hiding out in Hives and such. They're not that much more human looking than Custodes. So hardly unprecedented. Though I'd love to know how they make it work in both groups' cases.

In a universe with tech that allows for genetic manipulation and "hulking bodyguards"? The populace doesn't know how the Custodes or Astartes are supposed to look. It's supposed to be a big deal for someone to ever encounter a member of the Astartes, to where even most Guardsmen(individuals who spend their adult lives fighting on the frontlines or garrisoning Imperial worlds) don't necessarily ever see them.

They might genuinely just think "Hey that's a huge friggin' guy".

Marines and Chaos Marines lose Biker and Steed HQ's in their codex, and GW then does this crap.

Mandragola wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.

Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.

It would have been nice if spy Custodes were explored as a character as part of the general talons deal, but oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.

Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.

You're quite right, it indeed couldn't be! After all, they're two firing modes of the same weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marines and Chaos Marines lose Biker and Steed HQ's in their codex, and GW then does this crap.

Perhaps Marines will get their bike HQ's back once GW releases new (Primaris) Marine (jet?) bikes? I sure hope so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marines and Chaos Marines lose Biker and Steed HQ's in their codex, and GW then does this crap.

You can still use those Marine leaders on bikes if you use the Index entries.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/16/week-warhammer-live-9/

The Warhammer live list contained the following unit:

3x Vertus Praetors
– 1x hurricane bolter
– 2x salvo launchers
– 3x misericordia


So clearly not 1 per 3.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.


As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.

4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.


As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.

Probably different entries to give them different auras/special rules.

changemod wrote:
It would have been nice if spy Custodes were explored as a character as part of the general talons deal, but oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.

Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.

You're quite right, it indeed couldn't be! After all, they're two firing modes of the same weapon.

Indeed. One badly designed weapon.

To be fair, it's the same with normal missile launchers. The krak missile is better than the frag missile against almost any target - and the frag missile is not much good against anything for its price.

It seems to be an issue with AA weapons generally. Or maybe it's a problem with the flyers they are intended to kill. The problem is that flyers don't actually tend to be a lot less tough than tanks, but weapons designed to kill them (things like hydras, icarus stormcannons and the like) tend to feature much lower strength, damage and ap than normal anti-tank guns like lascannons. The result is that there's no real point buying a lot of AA units because you're better off having a predator or leman russ shoot at the plane.

The one thing these AA guns tend to be good at is shooting daemon primarchs - and to be fair you tend to see about as many of them as you do flyers. Their invulnerable saves are very good and they don't have great armour. They fly and are not hard to hit. If you've bothered bringing an anti-aircraft gun, shoot it at them... but otherwise a lascannon or 12 will do the trick.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.

4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).

I'm planning on magnetizing the missile launcher/bolter part personally, hopefully it won't be too tricky.

Mandragola wrote:

Indeed. One badly designed weapon.

To be fair, it's the same with normal missile launchers. The krak missile is better than the frag missile against almost any target - and the frag missile is not much good against anything for its price.

I feel like the problem with this comparison is that it forgets that the price on the missile launcher is supposed to represent the inclusion of the Krak Missile as well as the Frag Missile.

That said, I'd be 100% down for the price to also include the AA missiles as well.

It seems to be an issue with AA weapons generally. Or maybe it's a problem with the flyers they are intended to kill. The problem is that flyers don't actually tend to be a lot less tough than tanks, but weapons designed to kill them (things like hydras, icarus stormcannons and the like) tend to feature much lower strength, damage and ap than normal anti-tank guns like lascannons. The result is that there's no real point buying a lot of AA units because you're better off having a predator or leman russ shoot at the plane.

That's a bit of the issue happening right now with the variable damage and number of hits on some of the high-end antitank weapons.
If/when that gets addressed, I can see AA weapons being a bit better...but AA weapons have always trended towards being a bit crap.

The one thing these AA guns tend to be good at is shooting daemon primarchs - and to be fair you tend to see about as many of them as you do flyers. Their invulnerable saves are very good and they don't have great armour. They fly and are not hard to hit. If you've bothered bringing an anti-aircraft gun, shoot it at them... but otherwise a lascannon or 12 will do the trick.

I use them on Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels to be honest.
Both units have "Fly" and a -1 to be Hit(Ghostkeels getting a -2 instead).

Being able to tag them with a weapon that's normally fairly effective against them(Autocannons for example) with a weapon that also gets boosted BS is fairly nice in my experience.

 Geifer wrote:
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Didn't they correct themselves list was wrong and all 3 had missiles? If so, it might be one or the other per whole unit...

 Asmodai wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.

If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.

During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.

4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).

I'm planning on magnetizing the missile launcher/bolter part personally, hopefully it won't be too tricky.

I'm going to go a step further and magnetise mine for all 5 biker ranged weapons, which I feel will probably become a popular approach quite quickly.

No point in me defending the Flakk missiles, since they aren't great, but they mention a powerful anti-air strategem using units with the missiles. Something about linking fire/creating a net of blasts.

That should be interesting :p

the_scotsman wrote:
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

That's goofy. What about non-vehicle units with the fly rule, such as crisis suits, FMC, and jetbikes?

 cuda1179 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.


As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.

Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.

May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.

 Irbis wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.

Didn't they correct themselves list was wrong and all 3 had missiles? If so, it might be one or the other per whole unit...

I didn't watch the game myself and only read the summary posted a couple of pages earlier which said the commentators said three bikes had missile launchers but the army list with two missile launcher and a hurricane turned out to be correct.

But either way, it rules out the weapon choice being 1 in 3 and considering how GW writes rules and creates kits, 2 in 3 being allowed a weapon upgrade isn't likely. It's either 1 in 3 or all of them. Unless GW changed design paradigms again.

 Geifer wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.


As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.

Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.

May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.

And it was FAQed that this can only be used in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, costing you a Command Point.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.

One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.

Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.


As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.

Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.

May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.

And it was FAQed that this can only be used in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, costing you a Command Point.

Oh, alright. Time for a new edition, isn't it? With all the things being FAQed already.