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leopard wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
We do the same thing in the real. The m240, M2, and Mk19 go on tanks, Bradleys, and trucks/humvees as wells as with infantry units. Same missile systems on vehicles have ground mounted options for dismounted infantry. I dunno what the strykers and new light/vehicle systems use, really. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, the weapons are there to kill the same targets regardless of platform.

True, but when they wanted a mahoosive gun for the A-10, they didn't take a whole load of infantry weapons and some araldite

and while its true the Germans tried to mount the 88mm gun on everything from armoured vehicles to farm animals even they didn't generally try to weld six of them together.

Though the Canadians did stick a whole load of PIAT anti tank weapons on the back of an infantry carrier

It's... I can see both sides of this. It also reminds me of BattleTech, how the original tech was lost, and as it broke down, they stripped it out of the mechs and replaced it with more traditional weapon systems. Over the years, the original weapon systems broke down, could not be fixed as there's no STC, and they made do by slapping in the bolters. In regards to the bolters, in theory they are easier to maintain, as if a single bolter breaks down in that array, you can yank it and replace it. If a single bolter breaks down, you still have 5 firing weapons on that bike, where if a single firing system breaks, the bike loses half (or all?) of it's firepower.

However twin gatling style weapons would have been so pretty.

Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.

The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.

But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.

Mandragola wrote:
Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.

The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.

But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.

^ This guy gets it!

Termies for AC are bad. Better to bring normal AC troops for less points. Better yet, more bikes.

But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?

taetrius67 wrote:
But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?

Depends on how deep the weapons go into the slot.
The bolters have enough depth sticking out that you can fit a magnet in but the missiles are much thinner. If they don't slot in a bit you might have trouble.

Have we seen the Designer's Insight posted yet?

Mandragola wrote:
Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.

The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.

But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.

But don't forget about the Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D

 nordsturmking wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.

The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.

But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.

But don't forget about the Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D

That's not good though, hence why it is forgotten. Do we even know its range? GW loves to have units deepstrike, but have useless weapons for actually deepstriking (termies n flamers, reavers with stun grenades, etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they made the launcher 9'' so its just short. Also random shots for a str 4 is nothing to get excited about. They are simply overcoatsed, and bikes for 6 more points are vastly better

Ordana wrote:

taetrius67 wrote:
But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?

Depends on how deep the weapons go into the slot.
The bolters have enough depth sticking out that you can fit a magnet in but the missiles are much thinner. If they don't slot in a bit you might have trouble.

If they're like the sponson weapons on the stormfang, you might not need to magnetize them. Just a tiny bit of silly or poster putty will hold them in if they push in from the front.

The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.

And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.

EDIT: I only see two units ever getting deep striked from the deep strike strategem.

1) a 10 bike mega bomb

2) a vexila for some kind of other deepstrike shenanigans

5 Boxes. Easy.

Wulfey wrote:
The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.

And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.

That's If the tanks get rules. Personally I'd love to have one but I'm not counting on anything at the moment.

Unfortunately right now the timeframe for custodes 30k rules to translate to 40k is anywhere from 1-2 weeks all the way to fires of cyraxus (I'm calling late q3-q4 2018).

As for meltas missiles, I can take a land raider with 2+/5++ and 4 lascannons or I can take 3 bikes with meltas missiles (which wound vehicles easier) for 49pts less. And the bikes probably won't get bogged down by some piddly guard squad. Also those lances reroll wounds on the charge and a 5+ with a reroll is better than a 4+, means missile bikes will be dangerous anti tank units at all ranges.

Personally I'm probably going to go 3 bikes and 1-2 dreads as my anti tank but then again I've watched 5 custodians rip a knight limb from limb.
Custodes anti tank consists of getting to spears length.

Hurricane bolters are fun but I think I'd rather rely on infantry for anti infantry firepower (that and dread shooting) I actually like guardian spears shooting profile.

I think custodes are going to be more stand alone than grey knights before FW, and after they'll have people demanding points increases.

I have a bit of a hard time believing that the bikes are going to be that cheap... But if they are I'm not going to complain in the slightest! I was expecting $75 at least.

Though if that's the case there really is no reason to ever use the terminators. From what I've seen they have nearly the same cost, durability, melee output... And the bikes have greater ranged output and far superior speed.

Well. I was expecting a very high price for the Allarus Terminators and they are actually cheaper than the Deathsrouds. So maybe Bikes will cost that.

Wulfey wrote:
The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.

And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.

Or get the Contemptor-Achillius. The las-pulser was d3 twin-linked lascannon shots last edition, just imagine if they translate it wholesale and it comes out as 2d3 lascannons. (They probably won't.)

(At least two boxes of bikes, possibly more.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.

And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.

Or get the Contemptor-Achillius. The las-pulser was d3 twin-linked lascannon shots last edition, just imagine if they translate it wholesale and it comes out as 2d3 lascannons. (They probably won't.)

(At least two boxes of bikes, possibly more.)

Double checked inferno, it's not twin linked. The Gyrefalcons could upgrade to a twin linked one though.

Sadly I'll put money says FW prices the las-pulsar at the same cost as a twin linked lascannon, despite its shorter range and random shots (dear god I hate random shots in anything but templates)

Mandragola wrote:
Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.

The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.

But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.

It partly makes them more durable to anything with D6 damage as well (by one wound in the end with averages) but D3 damage won't matter as much.

I think initial rumors ALSO had Wardens getting a 4th Wound. Do we know if that's true or are they still 3 like the 'regular' Custodes?

I see the terminators as something big and scary to deep strike in your opponents face while the rest of your army moves up without spending command points but the bikes still seem better, just the S8 axes and 4 wounds are quite nice to have

Price leaks:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2018/01/this-weeks-pre-orders-list-and-prices.html

And the twitter showed the box as 3 guys in a box. The bikes are 1 sprue per bike because they have so few equipment options.

Wow. 35£ for the bikes ???

I was excepting like 50-60£ Varanguard-style...

 Cephalobeard wrote:
5 Boxes. Easy.

Agreed.

So cool and easy to bring as support pieces.

Ravenwing/White Scars - be jealous.

Nice. I'm definitely buying four boxes of bikes then. Dunno how many Warders I'll go for just yet, but at least two.

 Mantle wrote:
I see the terminators as something big and scary to deep strike in your opponents face while the rest of your army moves up without spending command points but the bikes still seem better, just the S8 axes and 4 wounds are quite nice to have

I see the Terminators as a way for an army like Guard to bring a character hunting melee in that isn't just throwing Assassins at the problem.

Plus it's an easy way to field them, given a Vanguard Detachment.
HQ: Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor
Elite: Vexilla
Elite: Vexilla
Elite: Allarus Terminators.

Bring them in, pop the "Unleash the Lions" stratagem and have the Allarus Terminators break apart into a bunch of models going solo character hunting.

You can't do that. Unleash the Lions happens at the start of movement, deep strike happens at the end. You have to wait a turn.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You can't do that. Unleash the Lions happens at the start of movement, deep strike happens at the end. You have to wait a turn.

Either way, the premise remains the same. Bringing them in and popping the stratagem when you can.

With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.

Patrol:
Shield Cap
9x biker bomb
3x custodians

Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?

EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.

Wulfey wrote:
With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.

Patrol:
Shield Cap
9x biker bomb
3x custodians

Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?

EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.

Doubt it. Stratagem specifies guardian spears which they are not. Also, did someone say earlier the bikes have a max squad size of 7?

 HorticulusDK wrote:
Wow. 35£ for the bikes ???

I was excepting like 50-60£ Varanguard-style...

Me too. They’re a lot better than I was expecting.

Spartacus wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.

Patrol:
Shield Cap
9x biker bomb
3x custodians

Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?

EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.

Doubt it. Stratagem specifies guardian spears which they are not. Also, did someone say earlier the bikes have a max squad size of 7?

Alright, that keeps making the 3x biker captain supreme command way more attractive. When paired with a budget guard brigade they will have the CP they need to kick some butt. If you make one of the bikers your WL and spend 3 CP on extra relics, that gives you all 3 with relics and you can use the strategem to move the 5+++ FNP WL trait around as the lead one dies. Paired with an AM brigade you start at 13 CP, spend 3 CP for the relics and leave 10CP for biker butt kicking. Then you can plop that 5++ banner bro in the middle of a fat stack of mortar crews behind LOS. That is plenty of CP to even do the 5++ plant the vexila to spread that sweet 5++ across your whole guard herd. EDIT: you can even spend some CP to deepstrike one of the biker bros if you need it for the mission. I don't think you should because I prefer their 14" move and charging.

+1 invul and RR charge bike for the WL with 5+++ FNP
+1 invul for the second biker
-1 to character attacks for the third biker / or the -1 to hit relic

Send in WL first and save some CP to pass his 5+++ as necessary